HarleyTechTalk

Quote from: FLTRI on March 18, 2013, 10:06:32 AM

Quote from: rigidthumper on March 18, 2013, 09:29:20 AM

Quote from: mayor on March 18, 2013, 08:51:51 AM
so if I'm reading what Robin posted correctly, anything not related directly to the ECM was reachable/programable by the digital tech eventhough the bike was programed with an mt8.  Is that right? 

Seems that way to me

Are you good to go with TTS now?

based on what Robin just posted about the DT diagnostics still working after a TTS tune locked the ECM, I think that my concerns are satisfied.     I still wouldn't run a dual bike VCI from TTS, but that's more due to the assumption that at some point one of the two bikes would be sure to be no longer needed/wanted in my personal fleet and the next owner may want to access his/her ecm at some point.   

Quote from: mayor on March 18, 2013, 12:32:39 PMbased on what Robin just posted about the DT diagnostics still working after a TTS tune locked the ECM, I think that my concerns are satisfied.

I agree. Although I am surprised that works but clearing AFV doesn't.

The Guided diagnostics works?? interesting ... Sorry Ill stick with less intrusive Tuners ...but as I said....not many in my end of the country even use the TTS any way ....and we still will not take a used bike on trade thats been tuned with one...if you want to do any upgrades down the road you are up the creek.. 

Quote from: HV on March 18, 2013, 01:43:22 PM
...if you want to do any upgrades down the road you are up the creek.. 

No more an with any other tuner that marries itself to the ECM.
Without the VCI you are up the same creek for recalibrations for upgrades, right?
If I didn't know better I would guess you have a personal issue with SC, therefore it makes no difference to you which system is best. It's about not doing business with SC?
Bob

Quote from: FLTRI on March 18, 2013, 02:01:11 PM

Quote from: HV on March 18, 2013, 01:43:22 PM
...if you want to do any upgrades down the road you are up the creek.. 

No more an with any other tuner that marries itself to the ECM.
Without the VCI you are up the same creek for recalibrations for upgrades, right?

I think he's talking about if you buy a bike that is already locked with TTS and you don't have a VCI for that bike.  Since none of the other systems will be able to overwrite the ECM, you are done making changes to that ecm. 

Does anyone know if you can use a new TTS VCI to pull the base cal out of a TTS locked bike, meaning if I bought a used bike that was locked can I flash that bike with a new TTS unit? I know the base cal wouldn't be the stock mte, but would this allow you to at least marry a new VCI to the bike? 

I would think you can write another MT8 over a previous one using a different/new VCI. I do not think you can retrieve the cal however so it would be a start from scratch.

Quote from: mayor on March 18, 2013, 02:07:23 PM
Does anyone know if you can use a new TTS VCI to pull the base cal out of a TTS locked bike, meaning if I bought a used bike that was locked can I flash that bike with a new TTS unit? I know the base cal wouldn't be the stock mte, but would this allow you to at least marry a new VCI to the bike?

Yes only a TTS can overwrite a TTS calibration so if you have a bike locked with a TTS you can buy a new VCI and carry on as normal.

I notice everyone thinks it is only the MT8 files that lock out the ECM!!

MT6 & MT7 files do as well if they have been flashed on with v1.60 or above of the TTS software.

Quote from: FLTRI on March 18, 2013, 02:01:11 PM
If I didn't know better I would guess you have a personal issue with SC, therefore it makes no difference to you which system is best. It's about not doing business with SC?

why does these type of conversations always have to drift towards claims of personal conflict issues?    Can't HV or the dealership that he works for just not like the fact that the HD ECM is locked out for programming access for HD techs by the TTS tune? This seems quite logical to me, especially since they are not a TTS dealer.  If I was working at a dealership and someone wanted to trade a TTS tuned bike in, I would ask for the VCI and original MTE, or I would substantially discount the trade in value of that bike (less ECM cost and programming fees).  Afterall, if you sell the bike with any type of warranty I would think that full future ECM access should be included.  Might complicate things more if that same dealership was scheduled to do some upgrades that involved tuning.  I personally have no issue with SC, or any issue with buying TTS products, but since I'm raising legitimate concerns am I now a labeled as a hater as well?  I certainly hope not, but I will say I have no intent I've giving up honest dialogue for the sake of someone else's concerns with negative marketing issues. 

Quote from: Scotty on March 18, 2013, 02:20:22 PM

Quote from: mayor on March 18, 2013, 02:07:23 PM
Does anyone know if you can use a new TTS VCI to pull the base cal out of a TTS locked bike, meaning if I bought a used bike that was locked can I flash that bike with a new TTS unit? I know the base cal wouldn't be the stock mte, but would this allow you to at least marry a new VCI to the bike?

Yes only a TTS can overwrite a TTS calibration so if you have a bike locked with a TTS you can buy a new VCI and carry on as normal.

I notice everyone thinks it is only the MT8 files that lock out the ECM!!

MT6 & MT7 files do as well if they have been flashed on with v1.60 or above of the TTS software.

Thanks.  I guess the only downfall is you no longer have the MTE, and you are tied to using TTS exclusively (if you know TTS will work, and that it exists). 

I think most of us know about the V1.6 and up, but we use mt8 since this is the latest tune code and most are unaware of what software version TTS is up to right now. 

Quote from: HV on March 18, 2013, 01:43:22 PM
The Guided diagnostics works?? interesting ... Sorry Ill stick with less intrusive Tuners ...but as I said....not many in my end of the country even use the TTS any way ....and we still will not take a used bike on trade thats been tuned with one...if you want to do any upgrades down the road you are up the creek.. 

Interesting, if not for yourself the dealership would likely not even know about the lockout issue. Just finished up another tune with a Super Tuner and for the most part it seems that is what I am now seeing the most of since I no longer recommend the TTS. The ones I see are the guys that know about it through the forums. I will keep updated and service it but will never purchase new again.  The dual slot deal was nice before the lockout was initiated.  I can tell you the dyno owners around here likely don't know about TTS and why should they, most are  Harley-Davidson dealers and I would assume the MoCo would want them to use and support their product which only makes sense. I have yet to see a bike I couldn't tune with the Super tuner and the new software is greatly improved.

Quote from: Scotty on March 18, 2013, 02:20:22 PMYes only a TTS can overwrite a TTS calibration so if you have a bike locked with a TTS you can buy a new VCI and carry on as normal.

Not saying you're wrong since I have no idea, but have you actually tested this? If what Bob says here is correct:

Quote from: FLTRI on March 18, 2013, 12:20:48 PM
I think the key is changed every time a marriage occurs.

I would think a new VCI would have no idea what the key is for an already locked ECM.

Bob...I have no issues at all with Steve...just the Locking of the ECM by the TTS ...  I have no reason to use a TTS and I'm happy for Steve that he has such followers as you to back his products... I would hope that my not endorsing the TTS will not be held against me as being a SC Hater ...He has enough followers on here to support him I'm sure....as I said before most dealers in my end of the country have never even heard of a TTS nor do they know who the Heck SC is or do they give a Rats A$$ ... We use what we want for a tuner as most other HD Dealers do... protecting our customers is the reason we do not want a TTS Bike... the Issue all started when a customer wanted to buy a used bike from another shop that was imported from the USA and asked if we could do a 103 upgrade and tune it with a SESPT ... the new owner had no idea what had been used to tune it and had no VCI for it.. After we checked what CAL ID it had we told the customer we could not use a SESPT on that bike unless he either called TTS or replaced the ECM.... most other dealers would not have even known what CAL ID that was or why they could not access the ECM... needless to say the customer just said forget it ill find another bike with less issues..     

If not using a TTS makes me a SC Hater...then does using one make me a SC Lover ? 

Quote from: ToBeFrank on March 18, 2013, 03:29:19 PM

Quote from: Scotty on March 18, 2013, 02:20:22 PMYes only a TTS can overwrite a TTS calibration so if you have a bike locked with a TTS you can buy a new VCI and carry on as normal.

Not saying you're wrong since I have no idea, but have you actually tested this? If what Bob says here is correct:
.

Yes did all the testing quite a while back and once a ECM has been flashed using v1.60 or higher of the software then other tuners and the DT are locked out from the ECM.

I don't think it writes a new key everytime all that SC has done is to change the security key on the ECM to a TTS specific one and that is why no others work as they are all based on what HD has put in.

Doesn't lock out the TTS from retrieving codes. Or the TS for that matter.

So let me ask this, I am using a tts mt7 file and have just installed a smart security system but have to have the fobs married to the bike. Is the dealer still going to be able to do this? Or will I have to flash the original file back into the ecm for the fobs to be programmed for the system?

Quote from: Shazam7561 on March 19, 2013, 05:34:49 PM
So let me ask this, I am using a tts mt7 file and have just installed a smart security system but have to have the fobs married to the bike. Is the dealer still going to be able to do this? Or will I have to flash the original file back into the ecm for the fobs to be programmed for the system?

Did you install a HFSM module or are you just adding the Smart Siren? (hint, did you have key fobs before or no?)

No, this is a new system. It came with the tssm, 2 fobs amd the hfsm antenna. I was able to marry the tssm module to the ecm via the instruction found in another thread, so the bike will run now but will not arm due the fobs needing to be married to the system. When I first installed the bike started and then shut off. I did what the instruction in other thread said to do and now it will start and run. I also was able to go in and set code to bypass if fob is lost or left behind.

I'm still not sure on the FOB assignment but if I read Robin's post right, it would indicate he could do this.

"The reason all other tuners can overwrite each other is because they follow the standard set by HD with the code."

Hey Scotty, if I have the TTS and I used a version that locks the ECM, can the PV or any other tuner overwrite the TTS straight up or does it still need the MTE file reloaded back in to unlock it?

Quote from: 08fxstc on March 19, 2013, 11:18:44 PM
"The reason all other tuners can overwrite each other is because they follow the standard set by HD with the code."

Hey Scotty, if I have the TTS and I used a version that locks the ECM, can the PV or any other tuner overwrite the TTS straight up or does it still need the MTE file reloaded back in to unlock it?

Needs the MTE or send it to TTS in the USA to unlock

Quote from: Scotty on March 19, 2013, 11:48:19 PM

Quote from: 08fxstc on March 19, 2013, 11:18:44 PM
"The reason all other tuners can overwrite each other is because they follow the standard set by HD with the code."

Hey Scotty, if I have the TTS and I used a version that locks the ECM, can the PV or any other tuner overwrite the TTS straight up or does it still need the MTE file reloaded back in to unlock it?

Needs the MTE or send it to TTS in the USA to unlock

Thanks

HD modified the seed/key algorithm for the 2011 models and in a special way..............

SC copied the special way with changes and applied it to the TTS to lock out all other tuners.

The reason all other tuners can overwrite each other is because they follow the standard set by HD with the code.

I even have tech notes here from the PV's early days when they could not work out the seed/key for the newer ECM's

[/quote]

That right there is quite a bit of good information.
Thanks for the heads up.

I think one issue is that SC and TTS is a one man show and one person is not available 24/7 just can't happen and while I have had good luck getting a hold of him some of the time, some of the time I have not been able to.  And what happens at some point in the furture if he gets sick or disabled? we are not immortals that is for sure. If you are broke down in BFE you may be sol.  In my neck of the woods (some would say the sticks) Montana there is no dealer that has heard of TTS.  I have tried to explain to them it is very similar to SEST etc and that it was developed by the same guy who developed the race tuner but they look at you like you had 3 eyes.  Maybe being associated with Kyurakyn (sp?) will help but does not seem like it so far. 
I personally do not think HV has been negative about TTS he just works at a HD shop and in doing so he should be loyal to SE, seems crazy not to be, I 100% believe him when he says most techs at HD shops have not heard of TTS.  I do wish Steve C was still posting here as seems like guys like me who have TTS and live in no mans land need him posting.   

Quote from: FLTRI on March 18, 2013, 10:42:41 AM

Quote from: ToBeFrank on March 18, 2013, 10:25:09 AM

Quote from: mayor on March 18, 2013, 08:51:51 AM
so if I'm reading what Robin posted correctly, anything not related directly to the ECM was reachable/programable by the digital tech eventhough the bike was programed with an mt8.  Is that right? 

Thanks Robin!

What am I missing? It looks to me like the following indicate that the diagnostic tools in the DT will indeed fail, probably causing the tech using them to think your ECM is bad. I'm 100% sure the AFV reset does not require a reprogram. It only needs the security key to unlock the ECM. The diagnostic tools also only require the security key.

Quote from: rigidthumper on March 18, 2013, 08:06:37 AM
So I drove to the shop this morning, and tried some things. Using the Digital Tech, I tried:
Afv reset. Failed
Module replacement.     Failed. Unable to unlock ECM.

Yes, you are missing something. Don't want just any tech to fu&k with the tune. They don't need to reset AFV.
Module replacement.    Failed?
Why would anyone want a dealer replacing their ECM?...unless of course it failed.
...and the resolve to any TTS issue is no more than a phone call away for dealer personnel.
Bob

security module replacement will fail.

QuoteYes, you are missing something. Don't want just any tech to fu&k with the tune. They don't need to reset AFV.
Module replacement.    Failed?
Why would anyone want a dealer replacing their ECM?...unless of course it failed.
...and the resolve to any TTS issue is no more than a phone call away for dealer personnel.
Bob

Bob it seems to me that you and SC constantly miss the point, but then I'm not surprised.

What do you think Ferrari, Lotus, Porsche, BMW, Lamborghini, Ford, GM, Honda and a host of other manufacturers be they elite or other would do when someone takes in one of their products for service/repair only to find that they cannot communicate correctly with the ECM?  Do you really think they are going to call TTS/other to resolve the issue?  If you do then your living in dreamland. 

And so why should a HD Dealer be any different.