HarleyTechTalk

I've done a Grudge Box bearing, but this is my first time with the builders tranny kit.  Baker gives you their inner primary bearing in the kit, of course their intent is that you use it.  My bike is a 124" so a bit worried about using that single ball bearing.  I also noticed that the mainshaft does not appear to have to step that the OEM cruise drive has, which prevents the mainshaft race from moving into the 5th gear seal.

Does S&S make a race that works with the Grudge Box so I can use a roller?  I feel like if I use either the Baker or press on a stock race, I'll be going into that pulley area before I want to.

S&s makes a tapered race that works on the older style mainshaft that doesn't have the step in it. It prevents the race from walking in and works with the stock sized bearing .I'm using thst race with the all balls bearing...no issues after 12k or so. Like all of s and s stuff they're proud of that little chunk of steel to tune of about 50 bucks but it works .

Do we know the part # for the S&S race that works with the Grudge & the roller bearing setup??

~John

Quote from: jmorton10 on October 31, 2019, 01:35:19 AM
Do we know the part # for the S&S race that works with the Grudge & the roller bearing setup??

~John

I would really like that part # too, and that it's confirmed to work specifically with the Grudge Box.

Brian (Ohio HD) should be able to provide the definitive answer

Either the OEM 34091-85A race or the S&S 56-5089 race will work. Both are the same I.D. at 0.9835". The S&S race is longer due to their tapered end that locks against the mainshaft taper after the clutch hub splines. Same as the OEM five speed shaft fitment.

When using the OEM race you need (read should) to install the inner primary with the OEM inner primary bearing in place to determine if the OEM depth of the race on the mainshaft will still apply, or if it must be otherwise. 

When using the S&S race it must be pressed on per their instructions, until the inner taper of the race meets the taper on the transmission mainshaft. Insure that the race is not in contact with the main drive gear.

Below are the I.D., O.D. and length measurements of the two inner primary bearing races. I strongly recommend not doing a bang it on and go, check the measurements to the inner primary bearing with the inner primary on the bike before pressing the race on. Get your depth correct to insure the bearing will be riding on the race correctly, and that the race is not into the main drive gear.


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Quote from: Ohio HD on November 03, 2019, 02:33:52 PMEither the OEM 34091-85A race or the S&S 56-5089 race will work. Both are the same I.D. at 0.9835". The S&S race is longer due to their tapered end that locks against the mainshaft taper after the clutch hub splines. Same as the OEM five speed shaft fitment.

When using the OEM race you need (read should) to install the inner primary with the OEM inner primary bearing in place to determine if the OEM depth of the race on the mainshaft will still apply, or if it must be otherwise. 

When using the S&S race it must be pressed on per their instructions, until the inner taper of the race meets the taper on the transmission mainshaft. Insure that the race is not in contact with the main drive gear.

Below are the I.D., O.D. and length measurements of the two inner primary bearing races. I strongly recommend not doing a bang it on and go, check the measurements to the inner primary bearing with the inner primary on the bike before pressing the race on. Get your depth correct to insure the bearing will be riding on the race correctly, and that the race is not into the main drive gear.


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Thanks ohio Hd.for the info,i used the oem race on a baker dd7.but i didnt now for shure  on the grudge. Box.

I'm confused here.  If the Grudgebox has a straight shaft with no step for the race to butt up against & no taper to the shaft, what makes the S&S race work any better than the stock one??

~John

I don't and never will have one to measure BUT ....

That's interesting.
I'm currently installing a Grudgebox GB-STRIP03 in a 2016 and the supplied inner bearing fits directly on the shaft, no race needed.

Maybe yours is a different model??

Quote from: FSG on November 04, 2019, 04:21:47 PM
I don't and never will have one to measure BUT ....

Exactly, same as the OEM five speed design, and the DD7 shaft. Changes diameter after the splines.

Quote from: johncr on November 04, 2019, 04:44:28 PM
That's interesting.
I'm currently installing a Grudgebox GB-STRIP03 in a 2016 and the supplied inner bearing fits directly on the shaft, no race needed.

Maybe yours is a different model??

No, we don't want the single row bearing Baker provides. The OEM bearing and S&S race is a little better.

QuoteThe OEM bearing and S&S race is a little WAY MUCH  better.

FIXED   

Quote from: FSG on November 04, 2019, 05:32:11 PM

QuoteThe OEM bearing and S&S race is a little WAY MUCH  better.

FIXED   

You're right!   

Quote from: Ohio HD on November 04, 2019, 05:32:55 PM

Quote from: FSG on November 04, 2019, 05:32:11 PM

QuoteThe OEM bearing and S&S race is a little WAY MUCH  better.

FIXED   

You're right!   

Quote from: johncr on November 04, 2019, 04:44:28 PM
That's interesting.
I'm currently installing a Grudgebox GB-STRIP03 in a 2016 and the supplied inner bearing fits directly on the shaft, no race needed.

Maybe yours is a different model??

A little off topic here but that's the same type bearing supplied with my new DD7. Couple of comments...

When I pulled the DD7 recently for warranty repair I noticed the bearing was "notchy" and difficult to turn. I pulled it & once free it was smooth as silk. I decided to replace it anyway & bought a new one. Problem is the new one won't fit. The shaft on the DD7 is a few tenths oversize & the bearing ID had been ground to fit. In fact it was ground enough as to be a sloppy fit on the DD7 shaft... slides right on & will rock a bit.

Once installed back in the primary cover the bearing is notchy again like it's too tight of a press fit. The whole setup sux. I could have a bearing go out right in front of a bearing supply house & not be able to get a replacement. 

QuoteI could have a bearing go out right in front of a bearing supply house & not be able to get a replacement.     

exactly and it's been put forward for a few years now that the OEM bearing with the S&S race is a far better option

Quote from: jmorton10 on November 04, 2019, 03:06:19 PM
I'm confused here.  If the Grudgebox has a straight shaft with no step for the race to butt up against & no taper to the shaft, what makes the S&S race work any better than the stock one??

~John

I'm still kinda confused here.  I am replacing a DD7 with a Grudgebox as we speak.  I knew all along I wasn't going to use the single row ball bearing that comes with the GB.  What I am confused about is the S&S race.  What keeps the S&S race from walking on a shaft with no taper & no step for the race to seat against.

My DD7 is a few years old & used the stock IP roller bearing.  It came with a new race which I assumed at the time was made by Baker although I realize now it was probably just a new stock Harley race which always worked just fine.  My bike is a 124 & I beat the cr@p out of it.  I installed the race with red loctite & it had not moved at all. It was a VERY TIGHT press fit when I installed it (tightest one I've ever seen) & actually broke the Jims installation tool before I had it pressed to the correct depth.

Now, using the stock roller bearings I have the choice of using the S&S 56-5089 or a stock  34091-85A Harley race.  I will use the S&S part just because I have used S&S parts for years & they are always super quality but I still don't understand what keeps the S&S part locked in place as opposed to the stock race that can move in a high TQ application??

~John

LOL, you can take a car guy (Bert) out of the business, but you can't take the car business out of the guy>Harley Davidson too.

Quote from: FSG on November 04, 2019, 07:22:21 PM

QuoteI could have a bearing go out right in front of a bearing supply house & not be able to get a replacement.     

exactly and it's been put forward for a few years now that the OEM bearing with the S&S race is a far better option

Looking at the situation logically, it would make zero sense for Baker to turn the shafts a few tenths oversize then have the added expense of a custom ground bearing. More likely, the shaft was discovered oversize after it was too late to correct it, and the bearing is a loose fitting Band-Aid.

I see that Baker now has a new online rep on HDF to replace Mark, would be nice to see him here also.

Quote from: jmorton10 on November 05, 2019, 05:22:21 AM

Quote from: jmorton10 on November 04, 2019, 03:06:19 PM
I'm confused here.  If the Grudgebox has a straight shaft with no step for the race to butt up against & no taper to the shaft, what makes the S&S race work any better than the stock one??

~John

I'm still kinda confused here.  I am replacing a DD7 with a Grudgebox as we speak.  I knew all along I wasn't going to use the single row ball bearing that comes with the GB.  What I am confused about is the S&S race.  What keeps the S&S race from walking on a shaft with no taper & no step for the race to seat against.

My DD7 is a few years old & used the stock IP roller bearing.  It came with a new race which I assumed at the time was made by Baker although I realize now it was probably just a new stock Harley race which always worked just fine.  My bike is a 124 & I beat the cr@p out of it.  I installed the race with red loctite & it had not moved at all. It was a VERY TIGHT press fit when I installed it (tightest one I've ever seen) & actually broke the Jims installation tool before I had it pressed to the correct depth.

Now, using the stock roller bearings I have the choice of using the S&S 56-5089 or a stock  34091-85A Harley race.  I will use the S&S part just because I have used S&S parts for years & they are always super quality but I still don't understand what keeps the S&S part locked in place as opposed to the stock race that can move in a high TQ application??

~John

The OEM cruise drive mainshaft has a step up on the INSIDE of the OEM race when it's pressed on.  You can feel it with your fingernail.  So, this stops the OEM race.  The S&S race is stopped on the outside (back end side) of the race when the shaft steps up from the splines to the smooth part of the mainshaft. 

The Grudge Box mainshaft does not have the little step up in the INSIDE of the race.  It's smooth like the 5 speeds.

Yes, I don't want to use the weaking single ball bearing that's provided with the kit.  I'm quite familiar with those bearings.

the Eureka moment is when you have one in your hand 

now you go pushing that race on tooooooooo faaarrrrrrrr it's going to BREAK as some in the past have found out

Push the race on a little too far, and they will crack.
The ball bearing is nothing more than a 6205 bearing with the I.D. honed. I made a jig to hold them when I was using a hone on them. Then, as others have found out, when pressing them in the inner primary they will bind. Stock set up is 100 % better.
John