HarleyTechTalk

Quote from: FSG on October 01, 2016, 02:00:12 AM

QuoteLook at the pics, talk to me.

My first thought is "are the faces of the pullys parallel with the inner surface that bolts to the wheel or mainshaft"?

Not certain I follow the question but I THINK the answer is 'yes' as tested with the runout measurement.



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are the pulley surfaces true

I don't mean to second guess FSG but I think what he's getting at is are the pulley teeth in-line with the shaft. You measured run out on the face of the pulley flanges. I'm not too concerned with 0.010 on the large diameter rear. Small diameter front with 0.018 could warrant further investigation. If the inside pulley surface is parallel to that then the teeth would not be axially inline with the shaft. The inside face of the pulley flange is probably where measurements should be taken from. Is the flange the same thickness all the way around? Also wondering about concentric runout. I think Max alluded to this previously. Not the concentric runout of the flange, the concentric runout of the teeth. Others have also mentioned stripping teeth and belt breakage is related to belt being loose. The link posted by JB is interesting. With the smaller than stock front pulley diameter and increase in engine output perhaps the 5/16 - 3/8 belt deflection is too loose. The knocking on the floorboards might be the belt climbing out of pulley teeth valleys. Maybe that would also explain the pulsing brake feeling, as the belt tries to go around the outside of the front pulley teeth it's squeezing the pulleys together and binding bearings.
Difficult to get an exact measurement of rear pulley situation without complete rear end installation. On my softail, if the rear pulley is sitting as far outboard as possible it will move inboard as the axle is tightened and the ends of the swingarm come together. Never actually measured but it looks like about 1/8inch. I use the belt tension gauge but really I pretty much guess the tension. Slight pita to get right on your own. Bike on jack, spin wheel trying to find tight spot, set tension with axle adjusters, bike on floor, sit on bike, reach down and feel belt. Repeat, lol.
Sometimes I wonder if too tight. I know I've set it too loose because it chirps.
With yours I'm thinkin rear pulley is ok, front pulley possible slight manufacturing defect and belt tension issue. I don't think 120hp is too much for a belt. I don't know, pulley vertical alignment? Swingarm twist? Swingarm bearings? Riding habits? You still want the sprockets inline when running a chain.
What's the belt deflection spec for a trike? 30t pulley obviously not too small diameter for belt drive but there's more stress trying to turn two wheels instead of one. Do trikes run belts tighter?

Quote from: FSG on October 01, 2016, 12:12:01 PM
are the pulley surfaces true

Answer: Yes for the front pulley. True in as much as I measured on a granite flat using a micrometer depth gauge and measured from the inside 'face' to the flat in four places and found that the rear face and front faces are parallel.

On the rear there actually IS no rear  face. Due to the Cush Drive, the rear simply references the bearing bore.

Some things of note: the front runout measurement is done by turning the shaft so it incorporates any axial runout present.
Without maching something, I have no simple way to measure the shaft runout.
The front pulley face is forged, not finish machined and coated with something other than paint. This coating drags on the dial pointer causing some deflection. The point is that to get a 'true' reading on the 30T I would need to sand it smooth. given the coating issue, I'm considering the .018 to be pretty darned good. I'd bet that sanding would make it read flat.
The rear measurement doesn't have a rotating shaft, so the indication is of the "squareness" of the bearing bore to the pulley face and .010 is great IMHO.

Quote from: vafatboy1 on October 01, 2016, 06:11:12 AM
Ricky

Built wrong is a possibility. <snip>
Through trial and error I adjusted the rear wheel 

I've concluded that this swing arm is built wrong. Of course, we have no idea what they consider the tolerance to be, but clearly, this one is 'close enough' for the vast majority of riders. It's effect on belt life is nill unless it just happens to end up in the hands of someone who pushes it.

Quote from: -deuced- on October 01, 2016, 04:28:44 PM
I don't mean to second guess FSG but I think what he's getting at is are the pulley teeth in-line with the shaft. You measured run out on the face of the pulley flanges. I'm not too concerned with 0.010 on the large diameter rear. Small diameter front with 0.018 could warrant further investigation. If the inside pulley surface is parallel to that then the teeth would not be axially inline with the shaft. The inside face of the pulley flange is probably where measurements should be taken from. Is the flange the same thickness all the way around? Also wondering about concentric runout. I think Max alluded to this previously. Not the concentric runout of the flange, the concentric runout of the teeth. Others have also mentioned stripping teeth and belt breakage is related to belt being loose. The link posted by JB is interesting. With the smaller than stock front pulley diameter and increase in engine output perhaps the 5/16 - 3/8 belt deflection is too loose. The knocking on the floorboards might be the belt climbing out of pulley teeth valleys. Maybe that would also explain the pulsing brake feeling, as the belt tries to go around the outside of the front pulley teeth it's squeezing the pulleys together and binding bearings.
Difficult to get an exact measurement of rear pulley situation without complete rear end installation. On my softail, if the rear pulley is sitting as far outboard as possible it will move inboard as the axle is tightened and the ends of the swingarm come together. Never actually measured but it looks like about 1/8inch. I use the belt tension gauge but really I pretty much guess the tension. Slight pita to get right on your own. Bike on jack, spin wheel trying to find tight spot, set tension with axle adjusters, bike on floor, sit on bike, reach down and feel belt. Repeat, lol.
Sometimes I wonder if too tight. I know I've set it too loose because it chirps.
With yours I'm thinkin rear pulley is ok, front pulley possible slight manufacturing defect and belt tension issue. I don't think 120hp is too much for a belt. I don't know, pulley vertical alignment? Swingarm twist? Swingarm bearings? Riding habits? You still want the sprockets inline when running a chain.
What's the belt deflection spec for a trike? 30t pulley obviously not too small diameter for belt drive but there's more stress trying to turn two wheels instead of one. Do trikes run belts tighter?

There's a lot there and I will reply later and try to address each point, no time just now... but here's what I believe is the take-away from all this:
I've concluded that this swing arm is built wrong. Of course, we have no idea what they consider the tolerance to be, but clearly, this one is 'close enough' for the vast majority of riders. It's effect on belt life is nill unless it just happens to end up in the hands of someone who pushes it.

Just stabbing in the dark here, trying to help, could one or more of the engine mounts, swing arm mounts, or rear wheel bearings be loose, degraded, wore, or out of adjustment enough to allow the alignment of the pulleys 2 Shift out of alignment under Load?? all the alignment procedures are static and the belt is failing in a "dynamic" environment.
Maybe use a pry bar such as Max has used in his "drunken camel" thread?? To see if deflection under load could be the straw that is breaking the camel's back...

Quote from: FlaHeatWave on October 02, 2016, 08:05:42 AM
Just stabbing in the dark here, trying to help, could one or more of the engine mounts, swing arm mounts, or rear wheel bearings be loose, degraded, wore, or out of adjustment enough to allow the alignment of the pulleys 2 Shift out of alignment under Load?? all the alignment procedures are static and the belt is failing in a "dynamic" environment.
Maybe use a pry bar such as Max has used in his "drunken camel" thread?? To see if deflection under load could be the straw that is breaking the camel's back...

It's a crazy long thread, so I guess I should summarize a bit to get it all up to date.

>>>>I did a build, got a bunch of new power
>>>>I added a 30T pulley for better launches.
>>>>I ride HARD; wheelies, races twisties (no burnouts)
>>>>I have stripped teeth off of three belts
>>>>I have *snapped clean* three belts (as soon as three days and 600 miles)
The floorboard bumping has a known cause, after stripping a belt, a couple of teeth tear and fold over but don't detach so they cause the 'bump' because they don't fit into the pulley as intended. I have actually trimmed them off of a damaged belt and kept riding, no bumping.
All mounts, swing arm components, cush drive rubber, have been thoroughly inspected over and over. After belt #4, ALL (six) wheel bearings were replaced with new. The trans was overhauled, replacing the MDG and 2&3rd gears. alignment of the axle and the swing arm axle have been checked and proved parallel again and again. The difficult thing to actually measure is the lateral position of the pulleys; after much trouble nailing down a method to measure it, I've found that the rear pulley is offset to the left a quarter inch. The axle remains parallel to the swing arm pivot and the issue has nothing to do with the adjusters. So, Yes, the 'smoking gun' has been located, as far as what is breaking the belts, it's the pulley misalignment. The root CAUSE of the misalignment is undetermined at this point.

It is EITHER
1.) the swingarm is built wrong or
2.) the hole through the trans case is drilled wrong.
I haven't spent time trying to establish which of those two items is the cause and with the chain on, It Doesn't Matter.

Chain on, dudes

OK, since I already have this big thread going, I'm going to add on here about the chain conversion, rather than hijack the other guy's thread even further.

After all that transpired as spelled out above I finally busted my budget to install a chain drive.
All of these use 530 o-ring chain (or "x-ring", same thing)
530 means
5 eighths  pitch ( pin distance C to C) and
30 eightieths wide inside (yes 30/80") which equals 3/8" of course.

Don't buy standard non-O-ring chain just don't.
Don't buy "drag race chain"  don't even consider it.

Top of the line chains are EK ZVX3; EK ZZZ; and others like RK brand. Look for a strength rating of 10,000 lbs or more.
They are commonly bare, Black or gold color, but can be ordered in several colors (I like red) if you search.



I found RBRacing  and Zipper's performance both build CNC machined Cush Drive adapter hubs and sprockets to fit the '09 and up touring bikes.
RBRacing also does a swing arm mod that provides a full 2" of adjustment.

Zippers doesn't do the swing arm mod, but they offer an adjuster upgrade for your stock swing arm but you're still limited to 1/2" of range.

T-Man performance also sells the hub and sprockets from RBRacing as their own kit. They also offer the swing arms.
Drago's Bike works offers the hubs, and I'm *assuming* they're also from RB.

Trask performance also sells a conversion of your old rear belt sprocket that turns it into a sprocket mount. To be honest, it doesn't look super strong. Drago *used to* offer the same but stopped, now only does the CNC like (or from ) RBRacing.
Dragos' website is horribly outdated, you'll just have to call him.

A 24T front and a 51T rear would match your stock 32/68 ratio.
A 24T front and a 54T rear would match the ratio provided by the "30Tooth triglide pulley" on your belt setup with the stock 68T rear.
RB's offers a 24/51 and also a 24/53
Zipper's has a 24/51 or a 24/54.

I compared all the prices and I tried to do this about as cheaply as it can be done.
First, you have to buy a Cush drive hub and sprocket (you could alternately buy a custom wheel w/o the cush drive but that's even more money).
I got the RB hub and sprockets for 690





I bought the chain (ekZVX3) online for 150 ,free shpg
I got a great deal on an EK brand chain breaker on eBay (65)



I ordered gaskets for $50 online but they didn't arrive soon enough so I had to spend 100 at the dealer for gaskets.
So, $1080 shipped.
I did not buy the swing arm mod or the Zippers adjusters. Note that if you use the 24/53 setup you WILL have to mod the arm. I chose to mod my own. I had already modded it before for the 30T install

(made the slot longer to the rear and added a gusset.) so I started into this job with 3/4" adjustment range rather than the stock 1/2". Because of the way this conversion worked out, I decided to extend the slot to the *front* so I could go down to the 116 link.



You have to use even numbered increments, and the number INCLUDES the master link. the difference between using 116 vs 118 links moves the axle 5/8ths of an inch.
Don't go thinking about "half links".... They are for only very light duty, in no way suitable  on motorcycles. They grow in length when loaded, which means they don't match the sprocket pitch so ¡BANG!   Don't even consider a half link.
If you use the 24/54 you should be able do avoid the modding (maybe) but you won't have much adjustment. (118 links)
The 24/52 combo should work without mods (maybe) 116 links
24/51 will likely require not swing arm mod. 116 links.
The sprockets for either outfit are sourced from PBI. You can pick up other tooth counts from them if you want to experiment.
The front will have to be 24 or 25 and require the 3/4" offset.
You WILL need a good Chain Breaker/riveter.
I got a sweet deal on a really good one but it came with no instructions.... I did it wrong the first time (it seems obvious *now*)
But it's a great beast of a device, not at all like that Harbor freight junk.

You will have to put bearings in the hub (two) might as well grab a couple of fresh ones.

Get a shift shaft seal while you're at it.
You might want to have a Dremel handy.
The sprocket hub lock ring will need grinding on its O.D. to fit inside the front sprocket.



Definitely have a handful of zipties on hand. You'll use several of them for trial fitting the chain.

Quote from: masstch on October 02, 2016, 09:12:57 PM
All of these use 530 o-ring chain (or "x-ring", same thing)

Similar but not the same.

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Quote from: Eglider05 on October 03, 2016, 09:07:28 AM

Quote from: masstch on October 02, 2016, 09:12:57 PM
All of these use 530 o-ring chain (or "x-ring", same thing)

Similar but not the same.

OK, you got me.... The same *generally* as in sealed chain vs standard non-sealed.


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x-ring is better suited for high performance, or any application where you want less chain friction. The x cross section seal has less surface area to cause a drag when the chain rolls.