HarleyTechTalk

Quote from: 1FSTRK on June 12, 2017, 02:22:33 PM
I wonder if this is the cause of the broken cases in the other thread?

I was wondering the same thing .

Quote from: Ohio HD on June 11, 2017, 03:15:24 PM
How many are known to have had this happen?

Quwarion is now  is there a bearing out there yet that will or takes care of the issue?

looks like a nu2205 cylindrical roller bearing with polyamide cage. according to skf " some synthetic oils and greases with a synthetic oil base and lubricants containing EP additives, when used at high temperatures, can have a detrimental effect on polyamide cages." I don't know if this is relavent though.

Quote from: FSG on June 12, 2017, 11:29:27 AM
the sbc pix

Looks like a good reason to split the cases. 143"er coming right up

If it is a 2205 there are some with brass cages https://bearingsdirect.com/nu200-series-inner-race-fully-removable-light-duty/2398-nu2205em-cylindrical-roller-bearing-brass-cage-id-25-x-od-52-x-w-18mm-ubc-usbc.html

Back when I would replace the right crank bearing on my 02 lot of times the new bearing would show up with rollers loose in the package you just had to snap them back in the plastic cage.Poor packaging but scary to think a  piece of cheap Honk Kong plastic (my moms favorite words) is relied apond in my not so cheap motor

Quote from: twincam8888 on June 11, 2017, 02:57:05 PM
Cheap cam bearings took out Evo engines too. Will they never learn.  Makes me angry actually.   Might get that FTF tattoo after all. LOL

yep, mine took some time, but never lasted over 60G's 

Quote from: borno on June 13, 2017, 02:01:56 AM
looks like a nu2205 cylindrical roller bearing with polyamide cage. according to skf " some synthetic oils and greases with a synthetic oil base and lubricants containing EP additives, when used at high temperatures, can have a detrimental effect on polyamide cages." I don't know if this is relavent though.

So  it is an OIL issue!

Quote from: borno on June 13, 2017, 02:01:56 AM
looks like a nu2205 cylindrical roller bearing with polyamide cage. according to skf " some synthetic oils and greases with a synthetic oil base and lubricants containing EP additives, when used at high temperatures, can have a detrimental effect on polyamide cages." I don't know if this is relavent though.

If it is relevant it is a game changer for the moco. 

There are no EP additives in motor oils, dino or syn. Gear lubes, thats a different story.
I find it hard to believe all the cage is missing in those pics but anything is possible. That balancer would be rattling like a bastard will all that clearance from uneven spaced rollers, close to gear tooth disengagement. Must be some real crap material in the cages if hot motor oil will dissolve it, which may or may not be the case. I'm pondering if oiling/cooling to the bearings is weak causing extra heat in the cage material for the break down. Can't tell from the pics but those rollers seem to show a hint of blue. If so, there's the culprit as in extra heat.
Ron

Quote from: fbn ent on June 13, 2017, 06:34:40 AM

Quote from: borno on June 13, 2017, 02:01:56 AM
looks like a nu2205 cylindrical roller bearing with polyamide cage. according to skf " some synthetic oils and greases with a synthetic oil base and lubricants containing EP additives, when used at high temperatures, can have a detrimental effect on polyamide cages." I don't know if this is relavent though.

If it is relevant it is a game changer for the moco. 

So now we've gone from bearing skate with syn to cage melt down?  I'm thinking roller heat is burning up the cage as a best guess. Cause, yet to be determined.
Ron
Ron

How does that bearing get lubed? Splash? Oil passage from the pump? Might be a lack of oil problem.

Quote from: PoorUB on June 13, 2017, 09:52:03 AM
How does that bearing get lubed? Splash? Oil passage from the pump? Might be a lack of oil problem.

Looks like basic splash but shaft could be slinging most off before it gets to the bearing. Speculation of course. Feed hole similar to timkens to back side would be better, possibly.
Ron

https://www.facebook.com/martin.olgin.1/videos/1163055760507409/

Not sure this link will work for you, but here's another one.

A 2015 model isn't a Milwaukee Eight motor, it's a Twin Cam.

Nothing wrong with using synthetic cage bearing bearings, they work fine in way higher loads than this application. This comes down to a manufacturing defect or like so many things "new" from Harley  poor engineering. It would not be the first time they failed to provide proper lubrication or used the wrong bearing for the job.

Quote from: 1FSTRK on June 13, 2017, 10:27:12 AM
Nothing wrong with using synthetic cage bearing bearings, they work fine in way higher loads than this application. This comes down to a manufacturing defect or like so many things "new" from Harley  poor engineering. It would not be the first time they failed to provide proper lubrication or used the wrong bearing for the job.

Say it ain't so. One of the obvious things when comparing the balancer assembly to the vrod is , while the same bearings pretty much are used, both ends are open for oil and behind and back of the crank there will be great gobs of it. I've yet to read of a bearing issue with them, even screaming them to 9k + a hair.
Ron

I would like to see the gear teeth, there were some other pictures of one that busted the case and destroyed everything. Guy had warranty denied because of his FP3. I wonder if the gear is to tight and loses it clearance when it gets hot. This would just cook those bearings.  You don't see any of the guys testing them hard on a dyno day after day having problems. But they monitor the heat. Don't know but it will be interesting to see what the outcome is for sure.  Maybe the brg manufacturer had a batch of cages than are substandard     Either way I don't know if I personally like the design of the balancer and don't have the purchase of a M8 on my to do list.   Bob

Fact is HD are like microsoft and everyone else now, one engineering prototype, one production prototype and then declare it gold and release it to manufacturing and the buyers can be the beta testers.

But hey, AMF shovels were the bad old days eh.... LRFH

Quote from: jbexeter on June 13, 2017, 12:28:13 PM

But hey, AMF shovels were the bad old days eh.... LRFH

I must be the exception to the rule.

I was a lot younger and knew a lot less about Harleys.... but I had a '78 FXS. When it got stolen, I immediately bought an '80 FXS.... Loved them both!!!  33K miles on the '78 and 65K on the '80, only one user induced issue between the two......

first in cincinnati the police bikes were 107 converted to 114  they had to use harley down loads
the problem is heat, not an oil problem. if it was oil problem there would be gauling of shaft and bearing would dis color.  bearing is made in India  probably with proper tune with some software maybe no issue   for me for piece go mind what i have left, I'm going to replace. plus my bike has no warranty anyway  its always a simple bearing issue when harley introduces a new model you would think they would learn  sbc

Quote from: sbcharlie on June 14, 2017, 05:20:29 AM
first in cincinnati the police bikes were 107 converted to 114  they had to use harley down loads
the problem is heat, not an oil problem. if it was oil problem there would be gauling of shaft and bearing would dis color.  bearing is made in India  probably with proper tune with some software maybe no issue   for me for piece go mind what i have left, I'm going to replace. plus my bike has no warranty anyway  its always a simple bearing issue when harley introduces a new model you would think they would learn  sbc

Here's my take on it based on the info. Not the 114 or the tune, however if the tune is poor and being cop bikes, oil temps will go to the extreme. It's beginning to sound like the cage starts to break down at high oil temps as the failure point. What that temp is, unknown at this point but oil cooled engines might fail first. Like I said my vrod will run to 9k+ over and over with the same basic bearing. Big difference is being liquid cooled oil temps generally run in the 195 range. Hot, stop and go it will slowly sneak to 220 but I've never seen it higher then that. There is an optional oil cooler fan for these oil cooled bikes. Beginning to think it should be manditory and part of the package. High oil temps just might be the smoking gun here since most never monitor it. Then again, why would you with miles of miles of MoCo testing.
So a connection to the oil cooled engines and oil temps and cage failures need to be established. I've personally seen 300* once on my 07 softail factory tune, hot day, stop and go so entirely possible some of these engines can hit that temp also in the right conditions.
Ron

IIRC the fan assisted oil cooler is standard on the police model.

This is the kit to boost displacement to 114" as listed in the HD Police Model Brochure.  The kit lists for $1595.95.

SCREAMIN' EAGLE® MILWAUKEE-EIGHT™
STAGE III - 107CI TO 114CI KIT*
This kit was developed for the rider looking for a solid
"seat of the pants" increase you can feel – every time you
roll on the throttle. The increase in displacement and the
bump in compression deliver a significant increase in
torque and power over stock. The Stage III 107 to 114
upgrade delivers up to 39% more power when compared
to the Original Equipment engine configurations.
* Delivers increased throttle response throughout
the entire RPM range
* Produces flexible roll-on passing power without
a required downshift
* Delivers excellent stop-light to freeway speed
on-ramp acceleration
* Retains Original Equipment Factory Warranty
* 50-State U.S. EPA compliant
Kits Include the following Screamin' Eagle® components:
Screamin' Eagle 4.075" Bolt-On Cylinders / Forged 11:1
High Compression Aluminum Coated Pistons / High
performance Piston Rings / SE8-498 Cam / Screamin'
Eagle Performance Valve Springs / Screamin' Eagle High
Performance Tappets / Multi-layer coated Head Gaskets /
Cylinder Base and Cam Cover Gaskets / High-Capacity
Clutch Spring
When installed by an authorized Harley-Davidson® Dealer
at the time of vehicle delivery, these kits
do not impact the vehicle's limited warranty.
Fits '17-later Touring models equipped with 107CI
Milwaukee-Eight™ engine. Requires separate purchase
of Cam Drive Retention Kit P/N 25566-06. Installation
may require Cam Spacer Kit P/N 25928-06. All models
require ECM calibration with Screamin' Eagle® ProStreet
Tuner for proper installation. See Dealer for details.
92500056 Black Highlighted.

According to SKF the plastic cage they use in their cylindrical roller bearing is rated for 250 F max or 300 F max

"Polyamide 66 (PA66), with or without glass fibre reinforcement, is characterized by a favourable combination of strength and elasticity. Due to its excellent sliding properties on lubricated steel surfaces and the superior finish of the contact surfaces, PA66 cages reduce friction, frictional heat and wear. PA66 can be used at operating temperatures up to 120 °C (250 °F). However, some synthetic oils and greases with a synthetic oil base and lubricants containing EP additives, when used at high temperatures, can have a detrimental effect on PA66 cages. For information about the suitability of cages, refer to Cages and Cage materials. "

"Glass or carbon fibre reinforced polyetheretherketone (PEEK) is popular for demanding applications where there are either high speeds or high temperatures or a need for chemical resistance. The maximum temperature for high-speed use is limited to 150 °C (300 °F) as this is the softening temperature of the polymer. The material does not show signs of ageing by temperature or oil additives up to 200 °C (390 °F). "

Quote from: borno on June 14, 2017, 02:01:09 PM
According to SKF the plastic cage they use in their cylindrical roller bearing is rated for 250 F max or 300 F max

"Polyamide 66 (PA66), with or without glass fibre reinforcement, is characterized by a favourable combination of strength and elasticity. Due to its excellent sliding properties on lubricated steel surfaces and the superior finish of the contact surfaces, PA66 cages reduce friction, frictional heat and wear. PA66 can be used at operating temperatures up to 120 °C (250 °F). However, some synthetic oils and greases with a synthetic oil base and lubricants containing EP additives, when used at high temperatures, can have a detrimental effect on PA66 cages. For information about the suitability of cages, refer to Cages and Cage materials. "

"Glass or carbon fibre reinforced polyetheretherketone (PEEK) is popular for demanding applications where there are either high speeds or high temperatures or a need for chemical resistance. The maximum temperature for high-speed use is limited to 150 °C (300 °F) as this is the softening temperature of the polymer. The material does not show signs of ageing by temperature or oil additives up to 200 °C (390 °F). "

No argument there. Standard issue in the Compensaver kits for thrust washer. That stuff is awesome. It was researched, heavily tested and performed just like the company stated. Too bad someone else didn't take the time to test these bearings.
Ron