HarleyTechTalk

Quote from: SoZo on December 28, 2017, 02:12:05 PM
That article is poo..... Just conjecture. Same as SBC SE heads were tested... Need further development to know but so far no gains.

They in that article stole pictures of Rick Wards CNC ported head pictures... I'm sure this guy knows more then Rick... (Rick Ward builds TOP FUEL motors...Larry McBride when he was racing and endless other pro stock racers)

I have Ricks complete engineering and machine work here almost ready to go. He has completely flow benched, engineered and machined my M8 setup from air filter to cylinders and rings, did all the boring and honing and finally exhaust specs. I'm a few weeks (waiting on custom Burns Stainless Exhaust) and you will all be saying how great the M8 is, or more accurately how great Rick is.... 

My build is:
SE cylinders board and honed torque plates 120.9ci
CP Pistons and rings end gap set by Ward
Feuling/ARP cylinder studs
Feuling/ARP stainless head bolts
Feuling/ARP rocker studs
Woods 9960 .600 lift cam
Woods Lifters
Woods valve springs titanium keepers.
Aim-Tamachi clutch pressure plate
HD SE clutch plates
7.08 grm/sec injectors

Rick Ward CNC heads with oversized valves Flowing
390cfm intake
266cfm exhaust
Rick Ward CNC SE 64mm intake flowing 350cfm front and rear cylinder.
TMan loss air cleaner (Velocity Stack reworked by Rick)
Feuling Oil Pump on order
Burns NHB Exhaust on order

John

So what are your plans for making the bottom end strong enough to hold all that potential power?

Quote from: 1FSTRK on December 28, 2017, 05:50:08 PM
Well John I am sure that combo will be a performer and it maybe that Rick has figured the engines out ( he is more than capable) but at this point your post is conjecture. Once you have the graphs and maybe some time slips it will then become fact. I also notice you have grown the engine to 120.9 CI to better the match the size of the ports and valves of the stock heads.

Great looking combo I for one hope it is the key unlocking true power gains from the 4 valve heads on a Harley.

Thanks.... yea notice I didn't post a number we will have to wait and see but not totally conjecture. I have seen a setup with very similar but not as much head or intake work produce 147 torque and 144 hp 120 torque @ 2250 rpm

Quote from: BVHOG on December 28, 2017, 07:38:23 PM

Quote from: SoZo on December 28, 2017, 02:12:05 PM
That article is poo..... Just conjecture. Same as SBC SE heads were tested... Need further development to know but so far no gains.

They in that article stole pictures of Rick Wards CNC ported head pictures... I'm sure this guy knows more then Rick... (Rick Ward builds TOP FUEL motors...Larry McBride when he was racing and endless other pro stock racers)

I have Ricks complete engineering and machine work here almost ready to go. He has completely flow benched, engineered and machined my M8 setup from air filter to cylinders and rings, did all the boring and honing and finally exhaust specs. I'm a few weeks (waiting on custom Burns Stainless Exhaust) and you will all be saying how great the M8 is, or more accurately how great Rick is.... 

My build is:
SE cylinders board and honed torque plates 120.9ci
CP Pistons and rings end gap set by Ward
Feuling/ARP cylinder studs
Feuling/ARP stainless head bolts
Feuling/ARP rocker studs
Woods 9960 .600 lift cam
Woods Lifters
Woods valve springs titanium keepers.
Aim-Tamachi clutch pressure plate
HD SE clutch plates
7.08 grm/sec injectors

Rick Ward CNC heads with oversized valves Flowing
390cfm intake
266cfm exhaust
Rick Ward CNC SE 64mm intake flowing 350cfm front and rear cylinder.
TMan loss air cleaner (Velocity Stack reworked by Rick)
Feuling Oil Pump on order
Burns NHB Exhaust on order

John

So what are your plans for making the bottom end strong enough to hold all that potential power?

Have you seen that Frank Drago and P3R are working on a 5 piece crankshaft and are patenting a Timken bearing setup for the M8?  Should be able to hold but I'm sure it'll come with a cost.

Quote from: SoZo on December 28, 2017, 09:31:45 PM

Quote from: 1FSTRK on December 28, 2017, 05:50:08 PM
Well John I am sure that combo will be a performer and it maybe that Rick has figured the engines out ( he is more than capable) but at this point your post is conjecture. Once you have the graphs and maybe some time slips it will then become fact. I also notice you have grown the engine to 120.9 CI to better the match the size of the ports and valves of the stock heads.

Great looking combo I for one hope it is the key unlocking true power gains from the 4 valve heads on a Harley.

Thanks.... yea notice I didn't post a number we will have to wait and see but not totally conjecture. I have seen a setup with very similar but not as much head or intake work produce 147 torque and 144 hp 120 torque @ 2250 rpm

Looking forward to seeing your graph, most Indy built 2 valve Ward head HD engines I have seen are making 1.17-1.25 hp/ci. That makes the hp target for your 120.9 CI M8 engine 141.45- 151.12 hp to be in the 2 valve head range.

We have had big bore 2 valve engines in the dyno section here in that range with heads from Baisley, Don's, Vance, R&R, WFO, Williams, and Ward just to name a few. Some people get these high end street engines confused with Dyno shoot out engines but they could not be farther from the truth. 2 valve head Dyno shootout engines have been in the 1.4-1.7 hp/ci range for over 10 years.

Quote from: 1FSTRK on December 29, 2017, 04:34:23 AM

Quote from: SoZo on December 28, 2017, 09:31:45 PM

Quote from: 1FSTRK on December 28, 2017, 05:50:08 PM
Well John I am sure that combo will be a performer and it maybe that Rick has figured the engines out ( he is more than capable) but at this point your post is conjecture. Once you have the graphs and maybe some time slips it will then become fact. I also notice you have grown the engine to 120.9 CI to better the match the size of the ports and valves of the stock heads.

Great looking combo I for one hope it is the key unlocking true power gains from the 4 valve heads on a Harley.

Thanks.... yea notice I didn't post a number we will have to wait and see but not totally conjecture. I have seen a setup with very similar but not as much head or intake work produce 147 torque and 144 hp 120 torque @ 2250 rpm

Looking forward to seeing your graph, most Indy built 2 valve Ward head HD engines I have seen are making 1.17-1.25 hp/ci. That makes the hp target for your 120.9 CI M8 engine 141.45- 151.12 hp to be in the 2 valve head range.

We have had big bore 2 valve engines in the dyno section here in that range with heads from Baisley, Don's, Vance, R&R, WFO, Williams, and Ward just to name a few. Some people get these high end street engines confused with Dyno shoot out engines but they could not be farther from the truth. 2 valve head Dyno shootout engines have been in the 1.4-1.7 hp/ci range for over 10 years.

Yup will have to wait and see.... went to almost all the aforementioned head guys I do think they are good too but Rick is maybe a bit more organized currently and completely flowed everything and I feel confident with the math. Again we will see !

With his experience with the 4 valve heads he is definitely a jump ahead of others [including me] but in time I think you'll see a lot of good things happening with this motor as the aftermarket catches up.

Have you seen that Frank Drago and P3R are working on a 5 piece crankshaft and are patenting a Timken bearing setup for the M8?  Should be able to hold but I'm sure it'll come with a cost.



I seen that but I'm not a big fan of the 5 piece crank. Others have tried & failed with the TC. It's a wait & see thing.

Any ideas on why they would go for a 5 on the M8 vs. 3 that they already make for the twin cam?

It's easier to make. Getting those flywheel forgings ain't easy.

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http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=95948.msg1145151#msg1145151

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While this is not a back to back scientific test it does include runs from reputable dynos and no Twin cam numbers.

Is it at all possible that in the rush to release product, the design of these aftermarket M8 cams simply aren't working well relative to how the 4valve heads work? Maybe all the people designing them have been working with two valve heads forever and simply don't understand how they work.

Quote from: harleytuner on December 26, 2017, 01:01:33 PM

Quote from: krwson on December 26, 2017, 08:32:56 AM

Quote from: harleytuner on December 26, 2017, 07:52:43 AM

Quote from: badcooky on December 25, 2017, 09:53:41 PM
4V heads like revs HD's don't rev much so the theoretical gains aren't there.
With a little work the M8's are stomping Twin cams that are highly modified though.
Dyno HP is just that a static number, real world the M8's kick ass.

Ever compared the gearing  between the 6 speed TC and the M8?

Surely no expert, but my resurch indicates primary drive and ratios (overall) are the same TC & M8's   

I started looking into it briefly awhile back and never finished researching the ratios.  On the dyno the gear graphs ate quit different for same grear runs between the 2. 

one thing I see that has changed a lot, is  the fact there used to be more very, very happy dynos out there. that is one of the reasons some of the numbers are to outrageous. and were tuff to believe

Quote from: happyman on January 08, 2018, 01:28:07 PM

Quote from: harleytuner on December 26, 2017, 01:01:33 PM

Quote from: krwson on December 26, 2017, 08:32:56 AM

Quote from: harleytuner on December 26, 2017, 07:52:43 AM

Quote from: badcooky on December 25, 2017, 09:53:41 PM
4V heads like revs HD's don't rev much so the theoretical gains aren't there.
With a little work the M8's are stomping Twin cams that are highly modified though.
Dyno HP is just that a static number, real world the M8's kick ass.

Ever compared the gearing  between the 6 speed TC and the M8?

Surely no expert, but my resurch indicates primary drive and ratios (overall) are the same TC & M8's   

I started looking into it briefly awhile back and never finished researching the ratios.  On the dyno the gear graphs ate quit different for same grear runs between the 2. 

one thing I see that has changed a lot, is  the fact there used to be more very, very happy dynos out there. that is one of the reasons some of the numbers are to outrageous. and were tuff to believe

They're still out there.  That's the reason I do a baseline run whenever possible.

Quote from: Nastytls on January 08, 2018, 11:30:04 AM
Is it at all possible that in the rush to release product, the design of these aftermarket M8 cams simply aren't working well relative to how the 4valve heads work? Maybe all the people designing them have been working with two valve heads forever and simply don't understand how they work.

That is one good point, on the other hand the SE numbers are not much better and you can bet they spent time and money on development.
The article referred to in the op points out some of what is going on also and you need to develop cams to work with good heads if you want good efficiency.

The stay in denial and blame the dyno game it still out there but is getting old and losing traction thanks to the quality of tuners that regularly post here and the number of different builds we now have from them. The problem is if the truth is explained away by blaming the dyno the real research and any chance of advancement stops. Just like in life the first step is admitting you have the problem.

what most dont know and ive seen nobody else elude to is this

the SE heads have the same valve job as the standard heads

Look at where the seat angle is placed on the valve

Just doing a performance valve job and sticking a better valve in the CNC heads they pick up a bunch

with next to no work

so far the airflow champ is a manley exhaust valve and the kibblewhite intake

Quote from: TorQuePimp on January 08, 2018, 07:58:00 PM
what most dont know and ive seen nobody else elude to is this

the SE heads have the same valve job as the standard heads

Look at where the seat angle is placed on the valve

Just doing a performance valve job and sticking a better valve in the CNC heads they pick up a bunch

with next to no work

so far the airflow champ is a manley exhaust valve and the kibblewhite intake

But again my question is what kind of HP gains will come from that additional flow?
We see over and over that the flow gains on this engine do not correspond to the HP gains like in previous engine designs.

Quote from: TorQuePimp on January 08, 2018, 07:58:00 PM
what most dont know and ive seen nobody else elude to is this

the SE heads have the same valve job as the standard heads

Look at where the seat angle is placed on the valve

Just doing a performance valve job and sticking a better valve in the CNC heads they pick up a bunch

with next to no work

so far the airflow champ is a manley exhaust valve and the kibblewhite intake

Good info, and for the previous post, nothing wrong with a "happy" dyno as the truth is none of them are truly accurate from their inception and that is the reason for baseline runs. The problem lies when they are used to sell product.  The sad part is the general public just doesn't seem to catch on and it continues to happen.

Good news, we will ignore the subject and op to make it about the dyno, like that has not been done to death every time someone has nothing constructive to add.

Added
On a constructive note the people porting and selling these M-8 heads do not appear to be using inflated dyno numbers. We know the best runs make it to the market place and these are the very runs that we are seeing.   

Quote from: 1FSTRK on January 08, 2018, 08:29:00 AM
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http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=95898.msg1114231#msg1114231

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http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=95948.msg1145151#msg1145151

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http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=96323.msg1119982#msg1119982

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http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=101043.msg1187249#msg1187249




While this is not a back to back scientific test it does include runs from reputable dynos and no Twin cam numbers.

Looking at these together opens the eyes a bit. The Stage 3 114" with all other stock components wins the torque battle both at 2500 and peak, and is so close on the peak horsepower that the money spent on the heads and throttle body was a waste. More than likely a set of injectors were purchased as well.

A good stage 2 is hard to beat on the bang for the buck.

Quote from: 1FSTRK on January 08, 2018, 08:27:24 PM
Good news, we will ignore the subject and op to make it about the dyno, like that has not been done to death every time someone has nothing constructive to add.

Added
On a constructive note the people porting and selling these M-8 heads do not appear to be using inflated dyno numbers. We know the best runs make it to the market place and these are the very runs that we are seeing.

Well excuse me for Christ's sake, I realize this is the first time we have seen any thread drift on this forum. You want valid results than stop the constant belittling bull"Potty mouth" you spew and start treating the rest of the forum with even a small bit of respect.  If you don't like the results you are seeing from flow numbers then do what I did and purchase a bike for the sole purpose of testing, call up John and have a set of heads done, dyno it with a few different cams, intakes, exhausts  etc and then post up your results and hope some random keyboard mechanic doesn't come around and crap all over it like do to every other thread here.

Head flow or dyno .. Ok   so lets look at this in another way .

I have a 120 drop on kit ( bored 114 cylinders to 120 CI ) so stock heads stock t/b and cam that to me in just one more piece of data to look at . I have done the 117 with this cam it shows X now the 120 with be just one more chunk of data to extrapolate into the new formula.

Once we see this data on stock heads , and then the ported heads fall into the mix it will show us what really is going on .  It is no different than the T/C we can just about put a stake into the ground and tell you what the engine will make for power within +/- 2-3 with a given parts kit .. The M8 is getting there as well . 

So heads on the flow bench are showing that there is flow to be had with some simple work ok . Then its on to the drum lets see what really shakes out .


I do agree its easy for any one to write something .. Hell I had guys telling me the 117 testing was flawed  it should have been done differently .. Well to that I say  jump in and do it lets see the results. I had 3 days in that testing alone , not to mention the parts .   

I do not see anyone stepping up to send me money for that testing .. It very costly and time consuming . There are a few of us that I feel are producing valid solid data .

   you guys just keep on with doing the testing on these M8's.    I applaud you!
Myself personally...I look forward to seeing the results of all the different combinations as they progress along.
  It takes time and money to do this kind of testing...and I for one appreciate the effort you guys are putting forth into it. It looks like the learning curve on the M8 is going to take some time to see results we want to see.
   I think in a few more years I'll eventually break down and buy one...but only after you guys get them all figured out.

Quote from: No Cents on January 09, 2018, 09:23:13 AM
  you guys just keep on with doing the testing on these M8's.    I applaud you!
Myself personally...I look forward to seeing the results of all the different combinations as they progress along.
  It takes time and money to do this kind of testing...and I for one appreciate the effort you guys are putting forth into it. It looks like the learning curve on the M8 is going to take some time to see results we want to see.
   I think in a few more years I'll eventually break down and buy one...but only after you guys get them all figured out.

Amen 

Quote from: No Cents on January 09, 2018, 09:23:13 AM
   you guys just keep on with doing the testing on these M8's.    I applaud you!
Myself personally...I look forward to seeing the results of all the different combinations as they progress along.
  It takes time and money to do this kind of testing...and I for one appreciate the effort you guys are putting forth into it. It looks like the learning curve on the M8 is going to take some time to see results we want to see.
   I think in a few more years I'll eventually break down and buy one...but only after you guys get them all figured out.

Quote from: Durwood on January 09, 2018, 04:47:17 AM

Quote from: 1FSTRK on January 08, 2018, 08:29:00 AM
0)
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=95898.msg1114231#msg1114231

1)
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=95948.msg1145151#msg1145151

2)
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=96323.msg1119982#msg1119982

3)
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=101043.msg1187249#msg1187249




While this is not a back to back scientific test it does include runs from reputable dynos and no Twin cam numbers.

Looking at these together opens the eyes a bit. The Stage 3 114" with all other stock components wins the torque battle both at 2500 and peak, and is so close on the peak horsepower that the money spent on the heads and throttle body was a waste. More than likely a set of injectors were purchased as well.

A good stage 2 is hard to beat on the bang for the buck.

what cams do the stage 3 have is it the 498, 515 or otherwise