HarleyTechTalk

Well hell, I've got mine put together with the Baker throughout bearing and didn't do the machine work.  No wonder it's not working.

  get that baby machined so the Baker HD throw out bearing will fit. I'd take a good hard look at the bearing when you get it out. It might be damaged.
  Once you get it right...you will be amazed at the difference it will make.

Quote from: Snowyone on December 31, 2017, 08:25:01 PM
Well hell, I've got mine put together with the Baker throughout bearing and didn't do the machine work.  No wonder it's not working.

Did you keep the oil slinger? Do you have full clutch lever movement at the handlebar?
The outer ramp is stationary. Cable activation causes the inner ramp to rotate and move away from the outer ramp towards the large retaining ring. I'm thinking that the thrust washer is riding "on" the ramp instead of "in" the ramp and that would prevent full movement of the ramp, which would reduce clutch plate separation.

Quote from: No Cents on January 01, 2018, 04:04:38 AM
  get that baby machined so the Baker HD throw out bearing will fit. I'd take a good hard look at the bearing when you get it out. It might be damaged.
  Once you get it right...you will be amazed at the difference it will make.

Bearing rollers, thrust washers and ramps are pretty tough. Interested to see if he finds any damage.

Quote from: -deuced- on December 31, 2017, 04:10:20 PM

Quote from: Ohio HD on December 31, 2017, 08:45:22 AM
As long as the 18° ramps are what you want, then that's ok.

For me I see no point in paying for the ramps when I have them sitting in spare part boxes. As well I want to use the Muller, so I'll have the inner ramp chucked in a lathe and open the recess O.D. to about 26,00mm.

By the way, anyone that has purchased the Baker kit, what was the O.D. dimension of the recess in the inner ramp?

Recess OD =  0.990", depth = 0.095". Thrust washer OD = 0.905", thick = 0.095".

Wouldn't mind a second opinion on my measurements.

Quote from: -deuced- on January 02, 2018, 02:23:52 AM
Wouldn't mind a second opinion on my measurements.

The bearing Baker use is Timken FNT-1024, if you don't know the Part Numbers of these bearings break down to ID and OD, i.e. ID 10mm, OD 24mm, Roller Thickness is 2mm.

The recess in the ramp needs to be increased in diameter, the depth is OK.

So the diameter needs to be larger than the bearing which is 24mm /  .945" 

I'll check the dia of the Baker Timken Thrust Washer in the morning.

Ok, so I received my Baker bits yesterday, and here are the difference in dimension of them and the OEM parts.


koyo FNT-1024 bearing 
0.936" OD 
0.398" ID 
0.078" TH

BD410-56 spacer for bearing 
0.390" OD 
0.256" ID 
0.072" TH

BD411-56 thrust washer 
0.909" OD 
0.255" ID   
0.094" TH

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

OEM bearing 
0.670" OD
0.255" ID 
0.078" TH

OEM thrust washer
0.676" OD 
0.259" ID 
0.093" TH 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

21°  OEM ramp
0.099" recess depth 
0.805" recess diameter

Muller  power ramp
0.068" recess depth
0.827" recess diameter

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Ok, armed with all of this info, the OEM ramp has a recess diameter that is 16% larger than the OEM thrust washer, and has a delta of 0.129".

The measurement of the Baker thrust washer increased by the same 0.129" clearance suggests a recess diameter in the Muller (or any ramp) of 1.038".

The measurement of 0.990" would give a clearance of 0.081" around he Baker thrust washer. Then if you look at the flip side of the Muller ramp, making that recess OD larger is a cautious maneuver, as you're getting really close to the ramps. As well I would not want to make the recess in the Muller ramp any deeper for the same reason.

So I would like to hear from someone who has machined the Muller ramps for the larger OD Baker throw out bearing. What OD did you make the recess in the Muller ramp?


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Well I'll have to search my files to get the diameter, NOTE: there's no need to go deeper.

You can see in the Muller below I've increased the bore slightly, that was so the E-Clip I used on the end of the slinger/adjustment shaft had clearance.

Thanks Gary.

I'll have to check my notes when I get home to see if I recorded the measurements. HTT Member Billy machined both my oem 21* and my Muller. He may recall?

Quote from: borno on December 27, 2017, 01:55:26 PM
I really want to try those ramps as my left hand locks up, especially if it's cold. I wonder if SE spring with the muller ramps is as easy as the stock ramp and clutch spring. I should put the SE spring in my '07, but haven't because of the arthritis and i'm thinking it might be just the thing.

Late to the conversation, but


I've installed at least a dozen and maybe as many as 20 over the years.  We always get them from California Phil. 


For cone-riding, nothing beats it.  It not only eases the effort required, but also increases the friction zone by the same percentage. 
People for whom I've installed say that they hate trying to ride a motor in cone patters without a Mueller.  I have to agree with them.   That wider friction zone makes all the difference in the world.

   It's real handy in parking lots too.   

Quote from: klammer76 on January 06, 2018, 02:49:44 PM
I'll have to check my notes when I get home to see if I recorded the measurements. HTT Member Billy machined both my oem 21* and my Muller. He may recall?

I don't recall the exact measurement, however I opened up the recess enough to allow for the tool nose radius, and faced it back to the ID, so as the washer would sit comfortably flat on a fully machined seat. HTH

So, I've never actually seen a muller ramp but I have wondered how far it could be cut before eating into the ramps on the other side. I guess the muller ramp is designed to run oem bearing but why is the recess shallower (~0.030") than oem ramp. Do the muller and oem ramps have identical stack heights? Just curious what happens with that 30 thou.
How much clearance is required between washer od and recess od to let some (relatively thick) oil in? Surely the smaller the recess diameter the better in regards to leaving enough meat around the ramp divots (talking muller).
oem washer to oem recess is ~0.065
oem washer to muller recess is ~0.075
baker washer to baker recess is ~0.045
Would 0.025" be enough?

QuoteDo the muller and oem ramps have identical stack heights? Just curious what happens with that 30 thou.

As long as they're reasonably close it won't matter, the adjustment screw on the clutch has plenty of range.

This is good as I can measure the Muller ramp without a CMM to track the actual features. So opening the recess to 0.949", gives me about 0.018" of material left at the outer diameter of the recess to the ramp machining. Remember the thrust washer is 0.909" OD, so that leaves only 0.020" clearance on either side of the thrust washer to allow for mismatch when the clutch lever is pulled.


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heaps of room   

I know, you can drive a train through it, as long as it's only 0.017" tall.....     


Never thought I'd be claying the throw out bearing when assembling it.     

  Brian...I just called Just Nick on the phone to confirm the size bit he used to opened up my Mueller ramp for the Baker HD throw out bearing.
He said he used a 15/16" end mill bit...and that was what Bert @ Baker told him to use.

Thank you Ray.

I had reached out to Nick a while back, and haven't heard from him. So dropping it to 0.937" from 0.949", I gain a little material, 0.003" more, at 0.021". It can't hurt!

Guess my measurements weren't to bad then.


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   Nick said he has been swamped with work and he hasn't had much time to get on the forum lately. I guess that isn't a bad thing if your that busy.
  I had thought Nick told me he opened mine up to 15/16"..but I wanted to make sure before I opened my mouth.

I appreciate it Ray, makes me more comfortable taking the material off.     

Question here....is this needed (opened up Mueller ramp for the Baker HD throw out bearing)
I have the Mueller and shovelhead spring to install on my 114 @137HP & 134TQ.
If this is the way to go who and where do I get this done?
Or run it like it is.....
Come on, Ohio HD & No Cents let me know please. Thanks for the info.

Quote from: locker55 on January 10, 2018, 10:41:36 PM
Question here....is this needed (opened up Mueller ramp for the Baker HD throw out bearing)
I have the Mueller and shovelhead spring to install on my 114 @137HP & 134TQ.
If this is the way to go who and where do I get this done?
Or run it like it is.....
Come on, Ohio HD & No Cents let me know please. Thanks for the info.

Yes, if you are going to run the heavy duty larger Baker bearing it needs to be opened up.

klammer76 is correct. 

Looks like putting a slight chamfer on the throwout and radiusing the flutes a touch on the end mill would go a long way here?