HarleyTechTalk

 

I didn't say that at all.  I said he should check.   

I don't know how many times I've had people say, "it didn't do that before the cams were changed".   

 Boy oh boy, that went from cams to a major over haul real fast!

I wouldn't worry about dropping a set of cams in a TC with 50,000 miles on it, as long as it is running good and check the crank run out!

Quote from: Hossamania on January 21, 2019, 03:40:26 PM
Include a proper tune in your budget, not just a download. While a download will work, it is not optimal.

Eventually, I'll pony up for a tune sometime this spring/summer, but the tune I get should from Fuel Moto should get me by. I definitely realize that I'll be leaving some power & efficiency on the table until I get it on a dyno.

Quote from: 1FSTRK on January 21, 2019, 05:04:40 PM

Quote from: Thermodyne on January 21, 2019, 04:40:57 PM
At 48K, you had better do some diagnostic work before you start spending money.  Sometimes they need so much work that a crate motor become the economical fix.  Or the wallet dictates an regular budget overhaul to buy some miles and time while you build up the war chest.  At the very least, you should replace the tappets at that mileage.  The tensioners wouldn't worry me, as they tend to wear down to the rollers and then stay like that indefinitely.

Compression and leakage tests.
Bore scope it and read the piston domes.
I'd bet money on the rear jug being more than 007 out of round.  And you need to check the piston skirts at tear down.  More than a few of them show embedded metal particles, which is usually a crank pin or rod surface brinelling.   

Then you need to check the run out on the crank, both ends.  As well as see what the rod fit is like.

Adding power to a 50K twin cam can bring to light a lot of issues that really were very noticeable when it was stock.

After that you pretty much have it covered as far as the cams and valve system.  You should check the rocker shaft fit in the supports.  They tend to wear loose over time.

Are You kidding me?
There is nothing wrong with his bike, he has no problems or complaints. Thought he would do some preventive maintenance and maybe add a cam upgrade and you have the sky falling.
Cylinders are shot, crank out, rockers loose, man talk about a fear mongering sales approach. So should every person riding a bike with 48,000 miles stop beside the road an pull the engine down to look for all these problems? What about at 47,000 miles or 35,000, where should the fear start?

Gentlemen,

I can appreciate what Thermo is saying - adding more power (we're not talking much here, from what I understand) to an engine could cause any of the array of complimenting components to reveal additional issues waiting in the wings; however, as 1FSTRK has stated, it's not that I'm experiencing any issues with my engine at this time - in fact, it has been running well and has been a pretty quiet motor for a twin cam. My '11 FLHX was louder than this one on the top end - I used to called it the "angry sewing machine"

The primary reason I'm even going this far now is actually to avoid such a catastrophic event, especially given the known variables that could cause such an event.

I did plan on checking the crank runout on the cam side - not only out of curiosity and because my buddy has the tool, but also I'm hoping it will be a quick litmus test of the overall health of my engine, to a degree. A different buddy of mine actually suggested that once the cams are in, that I should pull the rocker boxes off and confirm that the rocker arm angle of travel with the increased lift of the new cams doesn't place stress or ride off center of the valve stem, such as riding/hitting on a spring keeper. Since pulling the rocker box tops also isn't that difficult, I'll likely do that as well. At least I'd get some eyes on those components too.

This same buddy also has a leak-down tester, so it would be easy to check that as well.

Quote from: Shadowbennie on January 22, 2019, 06:25:59 AM

Quote from: 1FSTRK on January 21, 2019, 05:04:40 PM

Quote from: Thermodyne on January 21, 2019, 04:40:57 PM
At 48K, you had better do some diagnostic work before you start spending money.  Sometimes they need so much work that a crate motor become the economical fix.  Or the wallet dictates an regular budget overhaul to buy some miles and time while you build up the war chest.  At the very least, you should replace the tappets at that mileage.  The tensioners wouldn't worry me, as they tend to wear down to the rollers and then stay like that indefinitely.

Compression and leakage tests.
Bore scope it and read the piston domes.
I'd bet money on the rear jug being more than 007 out of round.  And you need to check the piston skirts at tear down.  More than a few of them show embedded metal particles, which is usually a crank pin or rod surface brinelling.   

Then you need to check the run out on the crank, both ends.  As well as see what the rod fit is like.

Adding power to a 50K twin cam can bring to light a lot of issues that really were very noticeable when it was stock.

After that you pretty much have it covered as far as the cams and valve system.  You should check the rocker shaft fit in the supports.  They tend to wear loose over time.

Are You kidding me?
There is nothing wrong with his bike, he has no problems or complaints. Thought he would do some preventive maintenance and maybe add a cam upgrade and you have the sky falling.
Cylinders are shot, crank out, rockers loose, man talk about a fear mongering sales approach. So should every person riding a bike with 48,000 miles stop beside the road an pull the engine down to look for all these problems? What about at 47,000 miles or 35,000, where should the fear start?

Gentlemen,

I can appreciate what Thermo is saying - adding more power (we're not talking much here, from what I understand) to an engine could cause any of the array of complimenting components to reveal additional issues waiting in the wings; however, as 1FSTRK has stated, it's not that I'm experiencing any issues with my engine at this time - in fact, it has been running well and has been a pretty quiet motor for a twin cam. My '11 FLHX was louder than this one on the top end - I used to called it the "angry sewing machine"

The primary reason I'm even going this far now is actually to avoid such a catastrophic event, especially given the known variables that could cause such an event.

I did plan on checking the crank runout on the cam side - not only out of curiosity and because my buddy has the tool, but also I'm hoping it will be a quick litmus test of the overall health of my engine, to a degree. A different buddy of mine actually suggested that once the cams are in, that I should pull the rocker boxes off and confirm that the rocker arm angle of travel with the increased lift of the new cams doesn't place stress or ride off center of the valve stem, such as riding/hitting on a spring keeper. Since pulling the rocker box tops also isn't that difficult, I'll likely do that as well. At least I'd get some eyes on those components too.

This same buddy also has a leak-down tester, so it would be easy to check that as well.

Just to be clear I did not mean to imply some of these things should not be checked. A CCP test is part of routine maintenance, crank run-out should be checked and recorded anytime cams are removed, a leak down test is quick and easy with the pushrods removed. Remember to look at all of these in regard to a 50,000 mile engine not the new factory specs, we are looking for normal wear or more to the point abnormal numbers that may call for further investigation. Most well tuned and maintained bikes will fall right in line with this mileage and after the cam upgrade go easily for another 50,000.

[/quote]

Just to be clear I did not mean to imply some of these things should not be checked. A CCP test is part of routine maintenance, crank run-out should be checked and recorded anytime cams are removed, a leak down test is quick and easy with the pushrods removed. Remember to look at all of these in regard to a 50,000 mile engine not the new factory specs, we are looking for normal wear or more to the point abnormal numbers that may call for further investigation. Most well tuned and maintained bikes will fall right in line with this mileage and after the cam upgrade go easily for another 50,000.
[/quote]

Yeah, I'm betting that most guys have done cams well before the mileage I'm at so some of the checks likely aren't done, especially the DIY'ers like me, which maybe is what ilicited Thermo's comments. And I appreciate them. These weren't things I was thinking about until brought up. Makes sense. I don't think anyone expects the unexpected until you start putting more strain on components. I'm pretty sure I can even get my hands on a bore scope (another buddy who is a Subaru mechanic) so I could even take a visual peek at the pistons.

It's down to decision time on the cam now. the CR-570-2 is the front runner for sure, but I'm still considering the Andrews 48 - it's about a hundo cheaper, but I can't seem to find dyno sheets that are similar enough to my bike setup to get a real good feel of the torque band. Lots of accolades for Andrews, but those seem to be slanted due to the fact that they are less expensive. Am I chasing numbers here? It seems to be a bit of a rabbit hole.....

I'll note the CCP, runout, & leakdown readings once I'm balls deep in it & be sure to post them up since I'm not sure where those should be for the mileage I have.

leave it alone for another year and then do a 110" drop in kit

CR575 cams with all the other components you mentioned

freshen the heads up, maybe have them ported if it's in the budget

and a DYNO tune, not a flash / map

Harley Davidson Street Performance (a vendor here) is offering a great deal on a 110 kit and rebuilding your heads - check it out - I don't know how long he'll be offering it

2014-2016 bikes run very well with a good set of mufflers and a good DYNO tune

Quote from: Shadowbennie on January 21, 2019, 10:33:15 AM

Quote from: Hossamania on January 21, 2019, 09:28:45 AM
Here's my two cents worth, being an owner of both a pretty well running 95" and stage 1 103": put a cam in it, CR570-2 will be my choice soon on mine, lifters, tensioners and bearings. Adjustable push rods. Tune it properly, and I think you will be pretty happy.
If you have more budget, and really have the horsepower bug, do a 110 bolt on, a cam to match, tune it. Need more than that, talk to a head porter here about your goals, get the headwork done, a 110 bolt on, cam to match the heads, possibly new throttle body and injectors, proper tune, smiles for a long time.
Start with a realistic budget, go from there.

Well, my original realistic budget this year for the bike was $0 - however, that has changed now that I know how dangerous of a game I could be playing with the stock internals if I were to just run them for another year, so I think I'll stick with the basics for now and will just do cams with fresh lifters, cam bearings, & tensioner shoes. As much as I'd like to increase the displacement, the couple of comments about a 107 not being worth the money means I should be looking at 110" - which is definitely out of my price range, for a while anyway.

I've resolved myself to the fact that if and when I go bigger, I'm just gonna have to buy new cams to match at that point.

Honestly, and it's probably too late to get a screaming rate on an ESP from Jim Palmer, but it's worth a shot.  I'm not a ESP kinda guy, but I bought my 2015 RGS with the intention of leaving it stock and racking up miles.  I got 5 years for $1375.  Granted, that was within the 2 year MoCo time frame. 

My guess is you could probably still get a 5 year for around 2K?  If you're not really interested in more power as primary concern, save your money and maybe see what that ESP would cost. 

**EDIT**  Just looked.  4 years for $1600.  Not pennies, but probably gonna be in line with what you have planned unless you do the labor yourself. 

Put the $1600 into a savings account ear marked for HD warranty type repairs. You will be farther ahead.

That is what I like about this forum, always more than one way to look at things.
For me cheap insurance is doing the maintenance. I this case I would add the cams and tune, why ride a stock bike that may or may not puke a bearing or lifter while the insurance company has you money or it sits in the bank doing nothing when you could be without that same money but riding a fully maintained stage two bike that runs better than it did when it was new and will be totally reliable for the next 50,000 miles.

Quote from: 1FSTRK on January 24, 2019, 12:27:12 PM
That is what I like about this forum, always more than one way to look at things.
For me cheap insurance is doing the maintenance. I this case I would add the cams and tune, why ride a stock bike that may or may not puke a bearing or lifter while the insurance company has you money or it sits in the bank doing nothing when you could be without that same money but riding a fully maintained stage two bike that runs better than it did when it was new and will be totally reliable for the next 50,000 miles.

I agree, it's great to get an array of opinions. The suggestion of looking into a warranty is certainly a valid one - that's just not for me. I've always been a little skeptical about buying extended warranties anyway, but given that I'm going to be doing all of the work myself, I'm still dollars ahead AND I should have a better running, reliable bike for quite some time.

Quote from: Shadowbennie on January 24, 2019, 02:47:29 PM

Quote from: 1FSTRK on January 24, 2019, 12:27:12 PM
That is what I like about this forum, always more than one way to look at things.
For me cheap insurance is doing the maintenance. I this case I would add the cams and tune, why ride a stock bike that may or may not puke a bearing or lifter while the insurance company has you money or it sits in the bank doing nothing when you could be without that same money but riding a fully maintained stage two bike that runs better than it did when it was new and will be totally reliable for the next 50,000 miles.

I agree, it's great to get an array of opinions. The suggestion of looking into a warranty is certainly a valid one - that's just not for me. I've always been a little skeptical about buying extended warranties anyway, but given that I'm going to be doing all of the work myself, I'm still dollars ahead AND I should have a better running, reliable bike for quite some time.

That.

Don't assume that if the crank has low runout that it's good to go for another 50k or even 5k miles. The rod bearings can go bad at pretty much any time whether your runout is good or not, stock or modified, with no symptoms until they start spraying metal debris and knocking. This isn't chicken little hollering the sky is falling, it's just a reality. I just had to put a crank in my '16 at 54k, rods sticking, the only reason I caught it early is because I had the jugs off to do a big bore kit. GMR posted a video on his Facebook page last month with 16k all stock and it was worse. This is my third twin cam to have rod problems, the other two showed themselves at around 70k. I don't do burnouts holeshots or other stupid stuff.

Quote from: harpwrench on January 24, 2019, 04:25:13 PM
Don't assume that if the crank has low runout that it's good to go for another 50k or even 5k miles. The rod bearings can go bad at pretty much any time whether your runout is good or not, stock or modified, with no symptoms until they start spraying metal debris and knocking. This isn't chicken little hollering the sky is falling, it's just a reality. I just had to put a crank in my '16 at 54k, rods sticking, the only reason I caught it early is because I had the jugs off to do a big bore kit. GMR posted a video on his Facebook page last month with 16k all stock and it was worse. This is my third twin cam to have rod problems, the other two showed themselves at around 70k. I don't do burnouts holeshots or other stupid stuff.

Well, again, I think this is a matter of perspective - could any other component of my engine grenade on me at any point in the next 1 to 50k miles? Sure. What are the chances? I think 1FSTRK had stated earlier - for every person who has had an issue with their harley, there's another who has had 100k of trouble free miles that never even thought to change anything out - they're your more prototypical HD owner.

I'm not discounting the fact that the MOCO has put out its fair share of product with questionable quality at times, but my thought is that if I'm mitigating known risks with a fairly inexpensive investment now, I personally feel it's a good investment. Hey, if my engine blows up, it was meant to be - then I guess I have no choice but to do a 124"! 

Welp, dug into the heart of the ol' girl yesterday so I could prepare for resuscitation soon. Overall, everything looked ok - but there is some wear on the lifters & cams that appear to be a little frosting, nothing major, but enough that tells me it's probably a good thing I'm tearing into it now.

Surprisingly enough, the rear cam chain tensioner had even less wear then the front and showed no pock marking like the front. The inner cam bearings still look strong, but of course, those are gonna be replaced with torringtons. The lifter bores looked good as well.

Soon I hope to hear the engine roar to life with the new cams, and hopefully at some point I'll actually be able to ride it - forecast is calling for another round of 3-6" of snow.....those groundhogs are full of chit!

A couple of pics, hopefully these are clear enough.

hood deal. What did you decide to do in the end?

Quote from: motolocopat on February 19, 2019, 10:28:22 PM
hood deal. What did you decide to do in the end?

Went with the cam package from Fuel Moto in the end. I called a few places recommended by folks here, and those guys I talked to certainly were happy to discuss my desired outcome and such. But now I have a few additional options I can turn to besides FM if I ever take upgrades a little further - i.e. I'm gonna look up BVHOG for the dyno tune as he's pretty close to me.

FM was running a moving sale special which knocked down the total to under $680 for everything. Got CR-570-2 cams, Woods alpha lifters, the kit came with S&S time saver pushrods as I guess FM was out of the smith bros rods and weren't sure when they were going to get some - not really a big deal I suppose. Sticking with a basic stage 2 for now, until I can build up more fun tickets for the real deal - which will be a couple years away, at least.

Quote from: Shadowbennie on February 20, 2019, 10:33:22 AM

Quote from: motolocopat on February 19, 2019, 10:28:22 PM
hood deal. What did you decide to do in the end?

Went with the cam package from Fuel Moto in the end. I called a few places recommended by folks here, and those guys I talked to certainly were happy to discuss my desired outcome and such. But now I have a few additional options I can turn to besides FM if I ever take upgrades a little further - i.e. I'm gonna look up BVHOG for the dyno tune as he's pretty close to me.

FM was running a moving sale special which knocked down the total to under $680 for everything. Got CR-570-2 cams, Woods alpha lifters, the kit came with S&S time saver pushrods as I guess FM was out of the smith bros rods and weren't sure when they were going to get some - not really a big deal I suppose. Sticking with a basic stage 2 for now, until I can build up more fun tickets for the real deal - which will be a couple years away, at least.

BV HOG  will do you right!!

Took a few of the parts out of the oil pump today, looked okay, pretty big score mark in one area tho - ok to run as-is? I will state that I'e had what I consider normal oil pressure - 35-40 ish when cold, 12 psi or so when hot
[attach=1]

+1 On BVHOG. I am very happy with the work he did for me.

Well hell, found my first major snafu- front cylinder head has an issue. Did a leakdown test, rear cylinder had 6% leakage, but when we did the front air was coming out of the throttle body - 70% leakage, so that's a problem! So off come the heads!

Pinion shaft runout was at .005, which is okay I guess. Will run that as-is.

Will it be wise to stick with the CR-570 even if I have the heads ported & polished, and use a Cometic .030 gasket to bump the compression? I thought I had read that the 570 is good up to about 10:2? Concerns with valve clearance with reworked heads & .030 gasket with the 570 cam?

I have a 14 limited twin cooled with S&S air cleaner fuel moto head pipes and supertrapp mufflers with power vision and target tune and a cr 570 cam. Talked to wes at Cr told him what I had and that I was going to put a set of street port heads with a .030  hg wanting his recommendation for a cam and he said the 570 was fine for that set up. Hope this helps

Quote from: topcat3815 on February 23, 2019, 11:30:05 AM
I have a 14 limited twin cooled with S&S air cleaner fuel moto head pipes and supertrapp mufflers with power vision and target tune and a cr 570 cam. Talked to wes at Cr told him what I had and that I was going to put a set of street port heads with a .030  hg wanting his recommendation for a cam and he said the 570 was fine for that set up. Hope this helps

Good info, I pretty much came to the same conclusion as well from the conversations I've had with a few vendors of this cam. Thx!

Quote from: topcat3815 on February 23, 2019, 11:30:05 AM
I have a 14 limited twin cooled with S&S air cleaner fuel moto head pipes and supertrapp mufflers with power vision and target tune and a cr 570 cam. Talked to wes at Cr told him what I had and that I was going to put a set of street port heads with a .030  hg wanting his recommendation for a cam and he said the 570 was fine for that set up. Hope this helps

Researching this a little further to try to confirm whether a .030 gasket will not put my CCP at an unreasonably high level as it seems I've read that the CR-570 with stock head gaskets runs around 190 CCP - according to the bigboyz calculator, if I run a .030 gasket with an otherwise stock motor with the CR 570's, it's coming up with a theoretical static compression of 9.9 to 10:1 & a CCP in the low to mid 190's at 850ft above sea level - of course the actual CC's of my stock heads as well as having some compression loss (6% compression loss in my rear cylinder) due to age of the motor will effect this, but is this a good target to try to hit or should I stick with the stock head gasket to achieve CCP more in the mid 180's to give me some wiggle room on the octane of gas I can run?

Unfortunately, my lack of experience led me to tear my bike down before establishing my baseline CCP, so I'm working off of pure conjecture and theoretical numbers, but it is what it is at this point.