HarleyTechTalk

I went to take my Ironhead for a spin last weekend, just to splash the oil around as it's been sitting for a couple months. I took a look in the oil tank and the oil level was way down, so I figured it probably wet sumped. I fired it up in the garage and let it run for a few minutes, shut down and checked the oil. It was fairly high in the filter. Geared up, and went up the freeway for about 20 miles then headed back home. About 3 miles from home, and the oil light flashed and I heard a bit of a rattling noise. I backed off the speed a bit (was doing 80) down to about 60, oil light stayed out and made it home OK. First thing I checked the oil, there was about 1/2 quart or so in it!

So what the heck? I think when I fired it up to "de-sump" it, it filled the filter up with oil and made it appear like there was a full tank. Mistake! Should have pulled the filter out of it an looked. Those damn filters take a long time to drain down. But the question is, where did all the oil go? It didn't have all that many miles on it since the last oil change. I though I remembered reading in the owners manual that Ironhead do consume a bit of oil, so I took a look and sure enough. Says typical consumption is one quart every 250 to 500 miles!

I also heard a guy on another forum (Indian) half joking about guys running Ironheads out of oil. Guess it wasn't really a joke, I almost did it myself!

Is that what you guys find? I never really thought about it until now, but that is a lot of oil, and where does it go? They don't have valve stem seals, so I'm sure some gets by there. But damn. Really? It does not visibly smoke, nor really smell like burnt oil in the pipes.
 

-JW

Over the years I have had a 67' XLCH, a 74' XLH, and a 77' XLCH.  Still have the 77'.  I have never lost that much oil.  I did go thru a 1/2 quart or so every few hundred miles, and they were all pretty good at "marking their spot".  Nothing to go nuts over though.  They would drop out Oil about the size of a half dollar coin after going on a ride.
Is it by any chance showing up over in the Primary?  I have always heard and do this Myself...to use the same Engine Oil in the Primary and Engine.  And again, I have heard that if You use two different fluids from the 1977 or 1978 Model Year going back to the "K" Model it would cause some problems between the two.  There is only supposed to be approx. 24 ozs. of Oil in the Primary, which I'm sure that You are aware of.  Any more than that obviously could be a problem.  Meaning that Engine Oil could be finding its way in there.
I also always dis-connected the Chain Oiler.



I have never heard of or witnessed an Ironhead running out of Oil under "normal" conditions, like You mentioned from another Forum.  Not to say it can't or won't happen.  But I don't proclaim to be an Expert.

I have had My Oil Light come on, and after checking things out, it was either an issue with the Light, Wiring, or Pressure Switch.  The Oil Level was OK.
Good Luck!

Many years ago, like 42 or 43 years, a bunch of us rode to Edgewater Raceway park, about a 50 mile ride. My boss at the time had a 74" Iron Head and was planning to make a few runs at the track. It was a test and tune night. On the ride home his oil light came on. We pulled over on I-275 to check the oil level, it was almost empty. We had to scrounge at 8:00pm on a Friday to find even 10w40 to get the bike going and get it home.

So in less than 100 miles, and several drag strip runs he burned a bunch of oil. We never saw it smoke, and this was before synthetic was used at all, except in a few specialty applications. The motor was pretty recently rebuilt, and he never had the problem again. But it was primarily a locally ridden bike, didn't see many miles at all.

We were also running hard (for an old Iron Head) like 80 mph all the way like you were running JW. And then maybe 5 or 6 hard runs on the 1/4 mile.

Thanks guys. I will take a look in the primary, but am not expecting anything unusual. My prior '80 Ironhead once had a leaky sprocket shaft seal, and it would indeed blow a bunch of motor oil into the primary. I could easily tell as you could feel it in the clutch, since Ironhead is a dry clutch and gets real bizaro if oil gets on the plates. I am using ATF in this one, and the only oil drops I see under it are bright red, so only ATF and not dark or black like motor oil got into it. Which, another curiosity, the oil in this thing gets blacker than an angus's tuchas on a moonless night. I use a Krank Vent on this bike also, so it's pretty darn oil tight as far as the motor is concerned.

I am not "glad" to hear that this has happened to other people, but maybe just a little bit relieved? Lesson learned is CHECK THE OIL carefully before, during, and after each ride. Good old Ironheads, the bike you hate to love! Or is it the other way around?
 

thanks,
JW

If it makes You feel any better...every I/H that I have owned, or own...the Oil is as Black as the Ace of Spades after a 50-mile ride.  Still can't quite understand that one.

Unrelated to the I/H...I have an 88' Heritage.  One fine day Myself and a Buddy are out taking a nice ride on some lonesome backroads.  We're having an "enjoyable" day.  Cruising on down the road, My Oil Light comes on, and when I crack the throttle I hear rat-a-tat-tat.  Well, this sucks I say to Myself, and We pull over.  I check the Oil and there is like nothing in there.  What the ?  My Buddy goes and gets Me a couple of quarts of Oil.  I put it in and head home.  All goes well.  The next day the Oil level was where it should be.  No Oil leaks on the floor, all over the Bike, nothing.  Oil Pressure is OK.  I pull the Drain Plug on the Outer Primary and nothing but Primary Fluid comes out.
Where did the Oil go?  To this day it's still a mystery.  I have often wondered when I changed the Oil, spaced out, and not put the fresh Oil back in.  I really doubt it, but I'll never know.  It's been fine since.

 
                                     
 



guess you're about as forgetful as I am

I can relate to this as I am an old man....

KW, have you had a chance to take it for a ride to see if the problem returns?

Not yet, been traveling all over the place for work. Maybe today if I get a chance.

-JW

 


JW-----that old iron head doin alright?

 

Hey Nibroc, no but thanks for asking. A few months ago I took it for a "oil mileage ride", filled up to the brim and rode it about 50 miles, checked the level when I got home, down at least 1/4 qt if not more. But while riding found another big concern. I twisted the wick a few times and spun it up beyond 5K, and the oil light would come on. I did this a few times to confirm, and was consistent. I limped it home and it's sat since them, I have too many other irons in the fire to dig into it right now.

So what you make of that? Loose oil pressure at high rpm. If it had very little oil in the tank, I could see this. But that is not the case, plenty of oil. Restricted feel line? Bad oil pump? Dunno, might fit a pressure gauge to it just to confirm, but something is definitely wrong. Just wildly speculating, but if the scavenge side of the pump is not working very well and letting the sump fill up with oil, could that cause both draining the tank and excessive oil consumption? Hmm....

-JW

How do the plugs look?

Last time I looked at them, they were OK. But indeed will have a look when I get back. (on biz travel this week) Also wanted to do a compression test. Have to say, other than this oil issue, the thing runs amazing for an Ironhead.

-JW

Quote from: JW113 on April 25, 2023, 04:45:35 PMHey Nibroc, no but thanks for asking. A few months ago I took it for a "oil mileage ride", filled up to the brim and rode it about 50 miles, checked the level when I got home, down at least 1/4 qt if not more. But while riding found another big concern. I twisted the wick a few times and spun it up beyond 5K, and the oil light would come on. I did this a few times to confirm, and was consistent. I limped it home and it's sat since them, I have too many other irons in the fire to dig into it right now.

So what you make of that? Loose oil pressure at high rpm. If it had very little oil in the tank, I could see this. But that is not the case, plenty of oil. Restricted feel line? Bad oil pump? Dunno, might fit a pressure gauge to it just to confirm, but something is definitely wrong. Just wildly speculating, but if the scavenge side of the pump is not working very well and letting the sump fill up with oil, could that cause both draining the tank and excessive oil consumption? Hmm....

-JW

JW, my first thought is sorta along the same line as yours.  The return side is drawing air somewhere and the aeriated oil won't feed the pump intake or at the higher rpm just pulls air because it's easier.  Has an oil line fitting or hose loosened or failed?  An oil leak (drip) may not necessarily show up on a line with negative pressure but it will definitely draw air and outperform any line that draws oil for the pump.   Maybe even a gasket at the oil pump segments?

I pulled the plugs for a look-see:

You cannot view this attachment.

Look pretty normal to me, not caked with oil deposits.

It popped 140psi in both cylinders, which again is normal for this bike.

So yes, the next step is to see if it's not scavenging. At idle, if I hold a piece of clear plastic over the oil tank hole I can see that oil is returning. The question is, at high rpm, what is going on? Yeah may be pulling air. When I get a free second or three will pull the pump and check out all the oil lines.

-JW

Quote from: JW113 on April 30, 2023, 04:43:34 PMI pulled the plugs for a look-see:

You cannot view this attachment.

Look pretty normal to me, not caked with oil deposits.

It popped 140psi in both cylinders, which again is normal for this bike.

So yes, the next step is to see if it's not scavenging. At idle, if I hold a piece of clear plastic over the oil tank hole I can see that oil is returning. The question is, at high rpm, what is going on? Yeah may be pulling air. When I get a free second or three will pull the pump and check out all the oil lines.

-JW

So where did the oil go remains unanswered. If the oil is not going out the exhaust or leaking, how is it getting out of the bike?

That is the mystery. There is nothing obvious, so it's down to a process of elimination.

-JW

Any tell tale signs of oil usage inside the exhaust?

Just thinking out loud. I grew up on iron heads. First street bike was an old ironhead rigid I pieced together from the junk my dad had and a bunch of my buddies in the harley crowd also rode iron heads. Simple economics back then.

Anyways, I dont remember any of us not carrying a couple extra quarts of oil on the bike and checking the oil before every kick. Even today, the guys I know with ironheads carry oil and check constantly and their bikes are much nicer than the rat nests we rode back in the 70s.

Weird. The only way for the engine oil to leave the system is to either leak or burn. Without obvious leaks and/or exhaust residue, WTF?

The good thing is it happened to JW and from what I have seen of his work, he will dig into this and find the root cause. Anxious to see what shakes out of this. I may even share it with my scoundrel buddies that still ride ironheads.

Thanks for the vote of confidence. I like it when there are symptoms that point to the problem, but when there do not appear to be any, then turning over stones until you get to the issue. Indeed Ironheads use more oil than most, even the manual says 1qt every 500 to 1000 miles. I think mine is closer to 200 miles, maybe less, and that sure ain't normal. The pipes have the typical dry black soot, not gooey slime as when oil's going out the pipe. And the breather vents into the air cleaner, so if it were going out there it would still end up in the pipe. The fact that the oil light comes on at high rpm has to be a factor here, just can't figure out what. I'll get around to it eventually, my truck has been dead in the water for a year now waiting on me to finish a new engine for it. I need to focus on that for now.

-JW

I kind of feel like a grave digger here, but...

I finally have had some time to look into this oil consumption issue with this Ironhead. Yeah, almost 2 years after the fact, but damn, been too wrapped up into other life stuff that I can't talk about here. Getting old ain't for sissies.

Gut feel: something is wrong with the oil pump scavenge gears. My question to you all. FSM says you can remove the oil pump without pulling the motor out of the chassis. My eyeball says no way, but then I've never tried it. Seems like there is not enough room between the pump at the frame rail to get it out.

Is this true? Can you yank the oil pump by simply removing those four mounting bolts?

thanks,
JW

It depends on the year, 1977 - '85 pumps can be removed with the motor in the frame, see

https://sportsterpedia.com/doku.php/techtalk:ih:oil03e

Another follow up to this saga. Instead of hopping on a running bike and enjoying a nice cruise down the Pacific coast highway in mid-70s weather, I finally got off my butt and picked up some wrenches. And to my delight, as Tappet pointed out, the oil pump on the '78 can be removed with engine in frame. Man, it looked tight, and it was, but indeed it came out. The hardest part was getting the oil lines off the fittings, next to no access, and I hate pulling oil lines in general. It was also a bit stuck to the motor case, had to tap it a bit with a hammer to finally get it to let go.

I took it apart for inspection. Much to my dismay, I did not find anything obviously wrong. I was thinking maybe the pin on the scavenge pump had sheared or something like that, which might explain the oil not returning to the tank. But oil light coming on at high rpm? No sense. All the gearotors looked great, no scars in the housing. In fact everything looked tip top. Until...

As I was cleaning things up, I went to remove the check valve. It was like totally full of "gunk", or "sludge", like we used to see back in the 60s & 70s before detergent oil. The cavity where the check valve sits was loaded with it. The other thing I found was a piece of 1/4" x 1/2" gasket in the inlet area to the pressure pump, where the passage makes a bend just after the inlet fitting. Found that as I was cleaning and blowing out the cover.

I cleaned everything up, especially the check valve. Soaked it in brake cleaner for quite a while, then operated it with a small punch until it felt really to move freely. I checked to see about a possible replacement, and found that they are basically un-obtainium, unless you what to shell out $500 for a NOS from some pirate. I'll roll the dice and go with the one I have.

Have a set of gaskets/seals from James on order. Will find out if this was the root cause or not. But to refresh, first symptom was oil light coming on at higher rpms, oil tank went from full to almost empty after a very short ride. Removing the engine case plug found most of the oil was in the cases, like it had wet sumped while riding.

I still don't know if any of this makes sense due to a sludged up check valve, but guess I'll find out soon.

-JW

If there's sludge there, may be worth the time to pull/clean the tank and purge/replace the lines?

Indeed good advise, but here is some more background info.

I bought this mostly stock Ironhead in 2000 from a friend, who had bought it as a basket case from someone else. It had a "rebuild" motor (yes, I know). I took the bike down to the bare frame, toying what to do with it. Another chopper? Nay, sold the awesome one I had. Full resto? Hmm, maybe, nah. Modify to a Baby FLH? I actually started that, got maybe 80% there, then decided nah. What about a hot rod bobber? YES!!!

I pulled the top end off, did a bunch of stuff to heads, high compression pistons, Andrews R5 cams, but did not pull the cases apart. Or take the oil pump of to inspect. My bad, for sure.

So I am thinking that this oil pump has NEVER been off the motor since the day it left the factory nearly 50 years ago.

And to your point, clean out the oil tank and lines. Well, I did all that when I was building it 5 years ago. But as a matter of fact, the oil tank and lines are now off, because I started to prep the bike to pull the motor, but thanks to my friend Tappet, learned that is not necessary. And how correct he was!

But I'll certainly be cleaning it all out before reassembly. I'm thinking that crap has been in the check valve area a long, long time, and running detergent oil in it recently caused it to get goey and move around. That was quite often a big problem back in the 70s, people switching to detergent oil in older cars and all that crud in the motor turned into slime and started plugging things up. Can't switch from non-detergent to detergent without a full tear down and clean up.

-JW