HarleyTechTalk

Isky looks the goods i like the oil grove in the bushing . Thanks Hilly

Quote from: Hilly13 on October 06, 2023, 03:27:58 PM60 I don't think many on this forum will run out and buy something just because Bobby Woods makes it..... having said that I have run one of his cams and it did what he said it would....it's easy to find articles on the internet that will support a view point....I don't actually have a take on these bushing lifters other than as an interested observer....I've had the top of the pile direct shot lifter go south, caught it before it grenaded thankfully, I would not call my engine max effort by any means.
Link to an article by Nolan Jamora of Isky fame.
https://www.performanceracing.com/magazine/sponsored-content/09-14-2022/isky-bushing-roller-lifters-truth-whole-truth-and-nothing

The links I posted actually gave both view points for the most part and the facts about both. That's why I posted them. So people can make an informed decision on their own. I did before Bob ever came out with his an no way I would run them. I don't care who makes them. There's more not good than good imo.

You'd be surprised how many people buy based on who's selling what tho. Everyone has their favorite vendors and Bob certainly knows his "Potty mouth". I've talked to him more than once Over the years and he was the one that first got me thinking about the 30 tooth solid primary I run now. I almost went with one of his cams more than once. His 999-6A as a stage 2 103 which he suggested in fact.
I just ended up buying similar cams that were more what I was looking for. Mainly not quite so steep ramps. If you notice the 590s I run now are pretty much identical to his 888s. Both good mid to upper rpm cams that do the same thing.
That's not my point and it sure isn't saying anything about Bob's stuff. I just don't think these Bushed lifters are right for street bikes. He probably won't be the only selling them either. Maybe he has a market for them already. Enough people race bikes. Some probably with his cams.

The article your linked is right on. You fail to realize one major part of what he's saying. He's referring to race applications. Not Harley Davidson street bikes.
Race engines are notoriously hard on lifters for the reasons I stated. If you don't have control of your valve train then you might want them. Mine is under control with acceptable spring pressures as I suspect most street bikes are. They don't see anywhere near the shock on the lifters as a race engine bouncing off the rev limiter all day. Hell most never get close to it. Needle Bearings are way less friction, last longer in normal operating conditions, and have less oiling requirements.
Think about it

I've got an open mind 60.

Quote from: Hilly13 on October 06, 2023, 05:09:13 PMI've got an open mind 60.

So did I. That's why I looked into the pros and cons of them and not just from one source that clearly has an interest in selling them. I wanted the best lifter just like I wanted the best everything else. It became clear rather quickly bushed lifters wasn't it.
I'd bet $$$ Isky would say the same in our case. He is speaking clearly from a race engine standpoint and cars at that.
Not a street ridden Harley Davidson motorcycle. Totally different animal.

well i have them in , with the piddle valve been very quiet so far , we will see ho it goes , but jims steady roll been out for a while and a lot of miles on them with no issues so hope same results , maybe i read wrong but 5hp diff from these to needle don't think so, also not sure what woods using for roller says not a bushing maybe ceramic like roller - x tried or something else but says not brass bushing, they are quit and i just didn't like the pushrod cup so went back to his previous lifter cup all specs same on size and piston, just don't like the small hole but that's me, been on few rides very quit. the only diff between these and his others are the roller versus needle well in mine since i went to piddle valve setup. 

Quote from: 60Gunner on October 06, 2023, 05:02:19 PM

Quote from: Hilly13 on October 06, 2023, 03:27:58 PM60 I don't think many on this forum will run out and buy something just because Bobby Woods makes it..... having said that I have run one of his cams and it did what he said it would....it's easy to find articles on the internet that will support a view point....I don't actually have a take on these bushing lifters other than as an interested observer....I've had the top of the pile direct shot lifter go south, caught it before it grenaded thankfully, I would not call my engine max effort by any means.
Link to an article by Nolan Jamora of Isky fame.
https://www.performanceracing.com/magazine/sponsored-content/09-14-2022/isky-bushing-roller-lifters-truth-whole-truth-and-nothing

The links I posted actually gave both view points for the most part and the facts about both. That's why I posted them. So people can make an informed decision on their own. I did before Bob ever came out with his an no way I would run them. I don't care who makes them. There's more not good than good imo.

You'd be surprised how many people buy based on who's selling what tho. Everyone has their favorite vendors and Bob certainly knows his "Potty mouth". I've talked to him more than once Over the years and he was the one that first got me thinking about the 30 tooth solid primary I run now. I almost went with one of his cams more than once. His 999-6A as a stage 2 103 which he suggested in fact.
I just ended up buying similar cams that were more what I was looking for. Mainly not quite so steep ramps. If you notice the 590s I run now are pretty much identical to his 888s. Both good mid to upper rpm cams that do the same thing.
That's not my point and it sure isn't saying anything about Bob's stuff. I just don't think these Bushed lifters are right for street bikes. He probably won't be the only selling them either. Maybe he has a market for them already. Enough people race bikes. Some probably with his cams.

The article your linked is right on. You fail to realize one major part of what he's saying. He's referring to race applications. Not Harley Davidson street bikes.
Race engines are notoriously hard on lifters for the reasons I stated. If you don't have control of your valve train then you might want them. Mine is under control with acceptable spring pressures as I suspect most street bikes are. They don't see anywhere near the shock on the lifters as a race engine bouncing off the rev limiter all day. Hell most never get close to it. Needle Bearings are way less friction, last longer in normal operating conditions, and have less oiling requirements.
Think about it

When the 110 CVOs came out with the 255 cams there were a lot of documented lifter failures; both hard facing on the rollers and needle bearings.
They were street bikes not race bikes, but a combination of cam lobe profile and high valve seat pressures proved too much for the "Potty mouth"ty 'c' lifters and for some SE lifters that went in.

I have a lot of hours and a lot of dollars in my 98fxstc and my 09fxdfse. They are not race bikes but performance modified street bikes and any future modifications will be to support their longevity.

I like the idea of the bushing lifters and I am paying close attention to the thread and the references posted.

I have a Darkhorse crank in the fatbob, not a performance part, but what I consider to be a worthwhile investment to prevent the possibility of a catostrophic failure.

Risk is a different quantity for every individual, based on cost of insurance weighed, against cost of consequences.

Quote from: itsafatboy on October 07, 2023, 04:17:01 PMwell i have them in , with the piddle valve been very quiet so far , we will see ho it goes , but jims steady roll been out for a while and a lot of miles on them with no issues so hope same results , maybe i read wrong but 5hp diff from these to needle don't think so, also not sure what woods using for roller says not a bushing maybe ceramic like roller - x tried or something else but says not brass bushing, they are quit and i just didn't like the pushrod cup so went back to his previous lifter cup all specs same on size and piston, just don't like the small hole but that's me, been on few rides very quit. the only diff between these and his others are the roller versus needle well in mine since i went to piddle valve setup. 

When they say 5hp I believe they are referring to V8's, 16 lifters, let's assume (never assume hilly) that each lifter is a direct percentage of that HP loss, 5÷16=.3125, times that by 4, 1.25HP!
As you point out Bobby is not saying what is in his lifter bushing wise, Isky keep their recipe to themselves as well, in the link I posted he specifically mentions "hot street" if you are following this thread that probably applies to you as in my mind from a lifters life perspective hot street means high spring pressure's, steep ramps and liberal throttle action, Isky have lifters for Harley's, yep he had caveats in his article, warts an all.
I really hope you keep us updated as you put miles on the Woods, as I pointed out earlier in this thread I've had a B2313SE go south, caught it in time thankfully, if Bobby has got longevity sorted I can't see why they couldn't be used, time will tell.

Quote from: 98fxstc on October 07, 2023, 06:02:57 PM

Quote from: 60Gunner on October 06, 2023, 05:02:19 PM

Quote from: Hilly13 on October 06, 2023, 03:27:58 PM60 I don't think many on this forum will run out and buy something just because Bobby Woods makes it..... having said that I have run one of his cams and it did what he said it would....it's easy to find articles on the internet that will support a view point....I don't actually have a take on these bushing lifters other than as an interested observer....I've had the top of the pile direct shot lifter go south, caught it before it grenaded thankfully, I would not call my engine max effort by any means.
Link to an article by Nolan Jamora of Isky fame.
https://www.performanceracing.com/magazine/sponsored-content/09-14-2022/isky-bushing-roller-lifters-truth-whole-truth-and-nothing

The links I posted actually gave both view points for the most part and the facts about both. That's why I posted them. So people can make an informed decision on their own. I did before Bob ever came out with his an no way I would run them. I don't care who makes them. There's more not good than good imo.

You'd be surprised how many people buy based on who's selling what tho. Everyone has their favorite vendors and Bob certainly knows his "Potty mouth". I've talked to him more than once Over the years and he was the one that first got me thinking about the 30 tooth solid primary I run now. I almost went with one of his cams more than once. His 999-6A as a stage 2 103 which he suggested in fact.
I just ended up buying similar cams that were more what I was looking for. Mainly not quite so steep ramps. If you notice the 590s I run now are pretty much identical to his 888s. Both good mid to upper rpm cams that do the same thing.
That's not my point and it sure isn't saying anything about Bob's stuff. I just don't think these Bushed lifters are right for street bikes. He probably won't be the only selling them either. Maybe he has a market for them already. Enough people race bikes. Some probably with his cams.

The article your linked is right on. You fail to realize one major part of what he's saying. He's referring to race applications. Not Harley Davidson street bikes.
Race engines are notoriously hard on lifters for the reasons I stated. If you don't have control of your valve train then you might want them. Mine is under control with acceptable spring pressures as I suspect most street bikes are. They don't see anywhere near the shock on the lifters as a race engine bouncing off the rev limiter all day. Hell most never get close to it. Needle Bearings are way less friction, last longer in normal operating conditions, and have less oiling requirements.
Think about it

When the 110 CVOs came out with the 255 cams there were a lot of documented lifter failures; both hard facing on the rollers and needle bearings.
They were street bikes not race bikes, but a combination of cam lobe profile and high valve seat pressures proved too much for the "Potty mouth"ty 'c' lifters and for some SE lifters that went in.

I have a lot of hours and a lot of dollars in my 98fxstc and my 09fxdfse. They are not race bikes but performance modified street bikes and any future modifications will be to support their longevity.

I like the idea of the bushing lifters and I am paying close attention to the thread and the references posted.

I have a Darkhorse crank in the fatbob, not a performance part, but what I consider to be a worthwhile investment to prevent the possibility of a catostrophic failure.

Risk is a different quantity for every individual, based on cost of insurance weighed, against cost of consequences.

I get that. Believe me I do. I have an ungodly amount of money in my 107 build. I didn't just want one of the quickest 107s on the planet which I think I've come awful close to, I also wanted it as bulletproof as possible and started with an S&S crank. Quite simply I wanted the best and I spared no expense on it because I am hard on it.
 I'm guilty of hard, high rpm acceleration/deceleration ALOT. It's what I built it for and geared it for.
If I thought bushed lifters were better in my bike I'd be running them in a heartbeat.

Jyst an fyi in case you didn't know. Harley's C lifters are made in Mexico garbage(have been since 2010). The SE lifters are not much better. Can't hardly compare them to a quality premium needle bearing lifter.
Not all needle bearing lifters are created equal just as I'm sure not all bushed lifters are.

It's not the quality of these woods lifters that's at issue here. It's the nature of a bushed lifter that I don't think is a good idea in a Street Harley Davidson compared to a quality needle bearing lifter. 
I think you'll find the oiling requirements alone will be an issue here and why a premium needle bearing lifter will last way longer short of the abuse most never see in a street bike.
How many needle bearings are being dumped into motors?
The issue with lifters and noise is internal(not the wheels falling off). and the internals of bearing and bushed lifters are the same.
It's an issue that Johnson Hylift figured out a solution to a long time ago for HD. HD just went with the cheaper Delphi lifter and in 2010 cheaper out even more.
Even the best of both needle bearing and bushed can fail.

One more thing to consider is the oil used. Bushed lifters obviously cause way more friction than a lifter with bearings. That's a given. How many here run oil with friction modifiers to reduce friction like race oil does? None of you running motorcycle (v-twinl)  oil are because it doesnt have them. It's designed to work in wet clutches. Friction modifiers cause them to slip. Something you want in an engine oil. Especially one with bushings I would think. I don't run motorcycle oil in my Harley engine. Never have dating back to my IH.
Just more to think about.

The EPA is putting pressure on engine manufactures and they want to meet the EPA standard . So oil is the next target , so less ZDDP is being added . 

Quote from: JSD on October 08, 2023, 03:29:54 PMThe EPA is putting pressure on engine manufactures and they want to meet the EPA standard . So oil is the next target , so less ZDDP is being added .

In the USA ZDDP has been out of oil for about 20 years.

Quote from: RoadKingKohn on October 08, 2023, 04:17:49 PM

Quote from: JSD on October 08, 2023, 03:29:54 PMThe EPA is putting pressure on engine manufactures and they want to meet the EPA standard . So oil is the next target , so less ZDDP is being added .

In the USA ZDDP has been out of oil for about 20 years.

Not so.  Do an internet search on which engine oils use ZDDP.  You may be surprised to find out that your present oil is one of them.   

Quote from: kd on October 08, 2023, 05:38:34 PMNot so.  Do an internet search on which engine oils use ZDDP.  You may be surprised to find out that your present oil is one of them.   

True, many motor oils still use ZDDP. The amount of ZDDP is reduced in some motor oil due to it causing issues to catalytic converters.

Quote from: kd on October 08, 2023, 05:38:34 PM

Quote from: RoadKingKohn on October 08, 2023, 04:17:49 PM

Quote from: JSD on October 08, 2023, 03:29:54 PMThe EPA is putting pressure on engine manufactures and they want to meet the EPA standard . So oil is the next target , so less ZDDP is being added .

In the USA ZDDP has been out of oil for about 20 years.

Not so.  Do an internet search on which engine oils use ZDDP.  You may be surprised to find out that your present oil is one of them.   

I know Amsoil has one for older car with tappets and they do not recommend it for use in cars with catalytic converters.

I will have to research it.

Quote from: Ohio HD on October 08, 2023, 05:42:07 PM

Quote from: kd on October 08, 2023, 05:38:34 PMNot so.  Do an internet search on which engine oils use ZDDP.  You may be surprised to find out that your present oil is one of them.   

True, many motor oils still use ZDDP. The amount of ZDDP is reduced in some motor oil due to it causing issues to catalytic converters.

Which goes to show how anal the EPA is. The levels of zddp it takes for even flat tappet engines, approximately 1400ppm, MIGHT cause some slight damage to cats after 100,000 miles of using it.
But MC oil has enough zddp which is an anti wear additive.  Actually some have way more than necessary. This is because they have way more detergents than necessary. Detergents compete against zddp and are counterproductive to the protection of zddp. This is why a true race oil like Valvoline NSL has little to no detergents and gets dumped after every race. VR1 and others like it have detergents and can run 5000 miles. Just not an over abundance of detergents.
 What MC (v-twin) oil.doesn't have is friction modifiers. A key additive in engine oil. This is why I don't run any jaso certified ma or ma2 oil in my engine. If it works in the primary no way does it go in my engine.
Race oil only for my expensive baby. Besides its even cheaper and I can change it every 2500 miles and still be further ahead than running expensive MC oil that's lacking what it needs.
Running these bushed lifters are going to benefit even more from friction modifiers even more than needle bearing lifters. Something your MC oil doesn't have.

50 weight oil is exempt from the EPA ban on zddp. Race oil of any weight is also exempt.

Quote from: 60Gunner on October 09, 2023, 05:42:12 AM

Quote from: Ohio HD on October 08, 2023, 05:42:07 PM

Quote from: kd on October 08, 2023, 05:38:34 PMNot so.  Do an internet search on which engine oils use ZDDP.  You may be surprised to find out that your present oil is one of them.   

True, many motor oils still use ZDDP. The amount of ZDDP is reduced in some motor oil due to it causing issues to catalytic converters.

Which goes to show how anal the EPA is. The levels of zddp it takes for even flat tappet engines, approximately 1400ppm, MIGHT cause some slight damage to cats after 100,000 miles of using it.
But MC oil has enough zddp which is an anti wear additive.  Actually some have way more than necessary. This is because they have way more detergents than necessary. Detergents compete against zddp and are counterproductive to the protection of zddp. This is why a true race oil like Valvoline NSL has little to no detergents and gets dumped after every race. VR1 and others like it have detergents and can run 5000 miles. Just not an over abundance of detergents.
 What MC (v-twin) oil.doesn't have is friction modifiers. A key additive in engine oil. This is why I don't run any jaso certified ma or ma2 oil in my engine. If it works in the primary no way does it go in my engine.
Race oil only for my expensive baby. Besides its even cheaper and I can change it every 2500 miles and still be further ahead than running expensive MC oil that's lacking what it needs.
Running these bushed lifters are going to benefit even more from friction modifiers even more than needle bearing lifters. Something your MC oil doesn't have.

50 weight oil is exempt from the EPA ban on zddp. Race oil of any weight is also exempt.

I add liquid boron to engine and transmission oil. It really helps in reducing friction.

Quote from: RoadKingKohn on October 09, 2023, 01:47:05 PM

Quote from: 60Gunner on October 09, 2023, 05:42:12 AM

Quote from: Ohio HD on October 08, 2023, 05:42:07 PM

Quote from: kd on October 08, 2023, 05:38:34 PMNot so.  Do an internet search on which engine oils use ZDDP.  You may be surprised to find out that your present oil is one of them.   

True, many motor oils still use ZDDP. The amount of ZDDP is reduced in some motor oil due to it causing issues to catalytic converters.

Which goes to show how anal the EPA is. The levels of zddp it takes for even flat tappet engines, approximately 1400ppm, MIGHT cause some slight damage to cats after 100,000 miles of using it.
But MC oil has enough zddp which is an anti wear additive.  Actually some have way more than necessary. This is because they have way more detergents than necessary. Detergents compete against zddp and are counterproductive to the protection of zddp. This is why a true race oil like Valvoline NSL has little to no detergents and gets dumped after every race. VR1 and others like it have detergents and can run 5000 miles. Just not an over abundance of detergents.
 What MC (v-twin) oil.doesn't have is friction modifiers. A key additive in engine oil. This is why I don't run any jaso certified ma or ma2 oil in my engine. If it works in the primary no way does it go in my engine.
Race oil only for my expensive baby. Besides its even cheaper and I can change it every 2500 miles and still be further ahead than running expensive MC oil that's lacking what it needs.
Running these bushed lifters are going to benefit even more from friction modifiers even more than needle bearing lifters. Something your MC oil doesn't have.

50 weight oil is exempt from the EPA ban on zddp. Race oil of any weight is also exempt.

I add liquid boron to engine and transmission oil. It really helps in reducing friction.

Boron is an excellent additive. I've considered doing this myself but Valvoline recently changed their VR1 to include moly, boron, and magnesium. No more sodium and less calcium. Moly is a friction modifier. Boron is a multi purpose additive. A mild detergent and extreme pressure/antiwear additive.
Google boron in engine oil.
Some are replacing ZDDP with it but it works even better WITH ZDDP.
It can be added to fuel too.

We all love some good oil theory .
Some reading, they rate Boron very highly :
Penrite oil Knowledge

thanks , im thinking of using redline race oil and maybe adding boron additive , and based on the reading seams detergents kind of fight against the wear protection so since i change every 2500 or so not worried about detergents that mutch . wonder what the best boron additive is   

Quote from: itsafatboy on October 10, 2023, 05:06:10 PMthanks , im thinking of using redline race oil and maybe adding boron additive , and based on the reading seams detergents kind of fight against the wear protection so since i change every 2500 or so not worried about detergents that mutch . wonder what the best boron additive is   

SFR out of Montana.

You use 1-1.5 oz per quart of oil.

They make it for engine and gear boxes.

NEVER put it into a primary, limited slip axle or automatic transmission.

Shame you cant find an oil you like that already contains Boron.

Quote from: speedzter on October 10, 2023, 05:45:44 PMShame you cant find an oil you like that already contains Boron.

Valvoline VR1 does. I'm sure there are others.

I've wondered about this stuff tho. Its a one time treatment supposedly.

https://bltboron.com/motorsilk/

Maybe Bob's Bushings contain Boron 
Couldn't help myself 

Seriously tho. The science behind boron is there just like zddp. The problem with adding these additives is knowing how much and how they work with the additives in your oil. P!us this SFR and motorsilk is expensive.
It's why I run the oil I run that has what I'm looking for.

This is interesting tho.

https://www.sfrcorp.com/product/testing/sfr-100-petroleum-oil-fortifier/

This thread has migrated to a talk about oil additives, mirroring another thread started specifically to discuss oil additives. It might be best to take oil additives posts to that thread, and keep this on track with lifter discussion.

Quote from: Hossamania on October 11, 2023, 04:27:19 AMThis thread has migrated to a talk about oil additives, mirroring another thread started specifically to discuss oil additives. It might be best to take oil additives posts to that thread, and keep this on track with lifter discussion.

It has. My bad. I started because of the oiling requirements for bushed lifters are more demanding than needle bearing lifters. Kinda of went from there.
I've said all there is to say here.