HarleyTechTalk

So here we are a year and a half later, I'm reviving this thread with an update.

Since the compensator replacement I've been financially struggling and haven't been able to afford to do much investigating, scared of what I might find.  It's been slightly vibrating but rideable, so why mess with it if it's not broke mentality.  I knew the dealership tried to "tune out" the vibration, and this weekend I decided to re-open the case and have the bike dyno tuned.  I figure the retuning would make an improvement or uncover a larger problem.

Unfortunately, it's looking like they uncovered a larger problem.  They found a voltage variation and the vibration increased significantly.  They want to inspect the rotor in case it's lop-sided and hopefully resolve the voltage issue, but they are also going to check the crankshaft runout as well because they're afraid the crankshaft may be "scissored" and separated.  I do feel that this is the core issue, and as expensive as the endeavor is I'm trying to see it as an opportunity for great engine improvements. 

I haven't nailed down much for exactly what improvements I'll be doing, but I'm probably going to be using Dark Horse as it's in the same state that I'm in (the dealership agreed with this is as well) and of course a timken bearing upgrade.  Other than that, depending on cost I might upgrade the connecting rods with lighter weight Carrillo rods.  Much is yet to be decided tho, any recommendations are welcome.

Just my opinion on the rods. For what you'll be using the bike for and the motors capabilities, I'd suggest using Darkhorse H-Beam rods. They cost less, and they'll hold up fine, I run them in my 124". Nothing wrong with Carrillo, they make fantastic products. Just that I think they're overkill in all but extreme running motors.

I hope you find the root cause. It sure could be the crank.

Just got off the phone with the dealership, asking for an update.  They found the crankshaft runout to be 5 thousandths, 0.005".  They're claiming "spec" is under 0.002, which I told them is the spec if you're doing gear driven cams.  I'm finding it hard to believe this finding is the reason for the vibration, I was expecting it to be 0.01 or more honestly.  Are they right or are they trying to just sell me a new crankshaft?

No word yet about the rotor, and they'll consult with the manager tomorrow and give me some quote options tomorrow.

5 is actually pretty good for a factory crank. Keep looking.

So a minor update, spoke with them a couple days ago and they re-measured the runout at 0.004 on the primary side.  They haven't measured the camshaft side yet but I'm guessing the crank should be ok.  Hopefully I'll hear a number tomorrow.  I need to verify in my manual but I believe the spec is 0.010 or less is ok and I'm doubting the camshaft side will be more than that based on the primary side findings.  If the crankshaft balancing chain sprocket shifted....can it be shifted back?  Or would I still need a new flywheel over it?

They've also found the rotor/stator to be okay as well (I don't know if this was meant physically or electrically or both), but we are all still scratching our heads as to what's causing the voltage variation.  I'm going to try and ask for a more thorough explanation later on exactly what's going on, it seems to fluctuate depending on rpms....which to me just screams rotor/stator so I'm confused.

I'm trying to get through the service manager's head that if it isn't the flywheel it must be the balancing sprocket.  However his experience with them is one occasion where the balancing weight itself was messed up and spun wrong, and he says that on my bike this cannot happen because there's a flat spot on the counterweight like a keyway and it's impossible to spin.  Lots of communication issues going on with this subject between us.  I think I was able to get it through the technician's head how I was talking about the sprocket on the crankshaft itself and not the counterweights on the sides when referencing a picture of the system.  Unfortunately the manager wasn't there so hopefully the message gets relayed, if not I'll try and go over it again with him with the picture.

The "estimate" they gave was $7700, and it was said it was a "high end" estimate, but after removing some very unlikely things that I don't feel that would need to be replaced (the camshafts and bearings, lifters, and basically all of my 2 year old S&S chestplate) I easily removed about $1900 off that.  Without the flywheel it was $1500 less, so the manager and I have some things to discuss upon rebuilding the engine.  Speaking of, I'm thinking it would be a good idea to have the crankcase bolts and other larger hardware to just be replaced instead of reusing the old ones.

I've been heavily debating on keeping it an 88 or make it a 95 go 103 with a new crank.  Manager made me chuckle to myself a bit, after he saw the dyno numbers he thinks it's already a 95 and I should replace the crank to make it a 103...which would completely make sense if that were the case and an easy decision if the flywheel needed to be replaced.  Unfortunately I wish it was that easy of a decision, as of now I'm assuming the flywheel doesn't need replacing now with the runout finding.  The exhaust (V&H ProPipe) and air cleaner (S&S tuned induction) I currently have would completely support a 103 and would be a better match, but without the excuse of needing a new flywheel it's difficult to justify the cost.  So I'm thinking of just keeping it an 88, maybe do a 95 or something later unless through this job order something changes.

So finally the engine is torn down and the engine IS a 95 much to my surprise.  The techs are STILL not getting the concept of the sprocket moving on the crankshaft.  Now that the balancers are completely torn down as well I'm not sure if I'll ever be able to ever know for sure that that was the cause of the vibration.  Apparently I do need a new flywheel as there are hangups on rotating the flywheel assembly.  So Darkhorse crankshaft it is, but I think I'm going to keep it a 95.  This is mostly due to the small number of 88 to 103 engines out there today which whispers to me that reliability issues may come with that modification wheras there are a great many 95 engines out still running today.  Of course that could be just be a numbers thing with that much fewer people replacing their crankshaft for a 103.

My next question I asked the dealership techs is what pistons are in it, and what's the compression ratio at.  They've quoted me a price, an expected lower price even with a new flywheel, however with the Darkhorse work I expect it to be $1k to $2k more than that. 

So my question for you is this stuff they're showing me with the cylinders, that they need to be honed....but I'm still seeing a lot of crosshatch on there but I'm assuming they're concerned about the horizontal line near the top? 
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There is no replacement for displacement. With that six speed it'll have wings. Stroke it.

Quote from: SmokyOwl on June 04, 2024, 05:14:56 PMSo finally the engine is torn down and the engine IS a 95 much to my surprise.  The techs are STILL not getting the concept of the sprocket moving on the crankshaft.  Now that the balancers are completely torn down as well I'm not sure if I'll ever be able to ever know for sure that that was the cause of the vibration.  Apparently I do need a new flywheel as there are hangups on rotating the flywheel assembly.  So Darkhorse crankshaft it is, but I think I'm going to keep it a 95.  This is mostly due to the small number of 88 to 103 engines out there today which whispers to me that reliability issues may come with that modification wheras there are a great many 95 engines out still running today.  Of course that could be just be a numbers thing with that much fewer people replacing their crankshaft for a 103.

My next question I asked the dealership techs is what pistons are in it, and what's the compression ratio at.  They've quoted me a price, an expected lower price even with a new flywheel, however with the Darkhorse work I expect it to be $1k to $2k more than that. 

So my question for you is this stuff they're showing me with the cylinders, that they need to be honed....but I'm still seeing a lot of crosshatch on there but I'm assuming they're concerned about the horizontal line near the top? 
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The cylinders should be measured accurately to determine if they're out of round, what OS piston is needed to clean it all up. I wouldn't put the same size piston in there and just hone.

Stroke it, you won't regret it!  The Darkhorse 4.0" crank is the same price as a 4.375" crank.  I have an 88 to 103 with a complete Darkhorse bottom end.  Reliability is not the issue, but I would recommend a larger throttle body than the OEM throttle body from the TC88.

Quote from: Ohio HD on June 04, 2024, 06:10:08 PMThe cylinders should be measured accurately to determine if they're out of round, what OS piston is needed to clean it all up. I wouldn't put the same size piston in there and just hone.

I'm afraid they may be using the same pistons over again, communication hasn't been great.  They haven't talked to me about piston options at all.

I've decided to keep it a 95.  Maybe I'll have regrets later about it, but I am putting Carrillo rods in.  In an email I just received from the manager: "We talked to Darkhorse about a new crank for your 95" engine, the new Man of War crank will have carillo h beam rods with both the crank pin and balancer drive sprocket welded, also balanced for Wiseco pistons. Cost of the crank is $1849.95 plus tax."  Now if he's talking about the pistons that are currently in the engine, or if they're replacing them with Wiseco pistons....I have no idea.   

I did just notice the vertical fading lines in the cylinder wall, I thought it was just lighting reflection.  I'm assuming that's what they were trying to show me.  I'm a little concerned about that green corrosion going on at the top of the cylinders and the edges of the pistons. 

They did verify that the balancers were in fact aligned.  I find it hard to believe a couple of tight spots in the flywheel rotation was the cause of all this vibration.  I'm afraid they'll put it all back together and the vibration will still be there and we'll all be back to square one.

Quote from: SmokyOwl on June 05, 2024, 01:45:33 PM

Quote from: Ohio HD on June 04, 2024, 06:10:08 PMThe cylinders should be measured accurately to determine if they're out of round, what OS piston is needed to clean it all up. I wouldn't put the same size piston in there and just hone.

I'm afraid they may be using the same pistons over again, communication hasn't been great.  They haven't talked to me about piston options at all.

I've decided to keep it a 95.  Maybe I'll have regrets later about it, but I am putting Carrillo rods in.  In an email I just received from the manager: "We talked to Darkhorse about a new crank for your 95" engine, the new Man of War crank will have carillo h beam rods with both the crank pin and balancer drive sprocket welded, also balanced for Wiseco pistons. Cost of the crank is $1849.95 plus tax."  Now if he's talking about the pistons that are currently in the engine, or if they're replacing them with Wiseco pistons....I have no idea.   

I did just notice the vertical fading lines in the cylinder wall, I thought it was just lighting reflection.  I'm assuming that's what they were trying to show me.  I'm a little concerned about that green corrosion going on at the top of the cylinders and the edges of the pistons. 

They did verify that the balancers were in fact aligned.  I find it hard to believe a couple of tight spots in the flywheel rotation was the cause of all this vibration.  I'm afraid they'll put it all back together and the vibration will still be there and we'll all be back to square one.

IIRC, Darkhorse welds the balancer drive sprocket on all the "B" flywheels they work on.
John

Cylinders are pretty plentiful.Maybe just bore a set of stock ones.
Start out fresh.         Coff 06

So the pistons are Harley, not certain exactly the part number but the manager mentioned that they have 9.4:1 compression and are cast flat-top pistons, I'm assuming they're some screamin' eagle version for 95" jugs.  He's going to look for an oversize set but if he can't find a set I'll be going with 9.5:1 Wisco tracker forged pistons.  I hope he finds a replacement, because I prefer cast over forged due to forged expanding more and slapping the cylinder walls before getting warmed up and not lasting as long.  Too bad there aren't many choices at all for cast pistons in the aftermarket.  So once the pistons are chosen, they can be weighed and sent out to Darkhorse to be balanced with the flywheel, I'm told that will take several weeks for a turnaround on that. 

I'm thinking I'll be staying with my SE203 chain cams, at least for a while.  The S&S hydraulic chest plate is only a couple years old anyways, and it'll be quieter than gears.  I did find a used set of S&S 551 chain cams on eBay, not sure if it's worth the hassle tho.  I'm thinking a cam change could solve my annoying starting issue:  if it's under 80 degrees ambient it won't start the first try, it always takes a 2nd attempt, if it's really cold it can take three tries sometimes.  But if it's over 80, pretty warm, first try start every time.

I messed up above slightly on piston specs, they're 9.3 compression screamin' eagle 95" cast pistons.  Unfortunately oversized pistons for honed cylinders are now out of reach, but original bore size is available so I went ahead and replaced both the cylinder and pistons.  I might buy another set for down the road.
It really bothers me at this point nobody's been able to identify a smoking gun for the vibration, all hope seems to be pinned on a new flywheel.  If they put it all back together and the vibration remains, I don't know if I'll be more angry than the service manager.

So finally...nearly 4 months later the engine is finally together.  Not sure what took so long, they had a few minor hiccups and some employees quitting and hiring new people.  I was expecting 2 maybe 3 months tops From the sounds of it they didn't work on it for 2 or 3 hours a week, and I'm just assuming it sat collecting dust for about a month for absolutely no reason, they were never waiting on parts for more than a week as far as I know.

They're talking about putting on some break-in miles and putting the bike on the dyno in the next week or so (maybe this weekend?).  I've heard 500 miles of touchy "stay within these rpms" and others say just break it in on the dyno.  Hopefully doing a bit of both will work well?  I think it'd be kinda over the line of professionalism for a tech to ride for several hundred miles to break in the engine, not sure if they'd want to do that or not.

Well I got the bike back in my hands for a few days now and.......it feels exactly the same as before.  Maybe a little better/different, but the vibrations still turn on at 2,800-3k rpms.  Now I still have another 300 of the 500 "break in" miles to go yet before it goes on the dyno for final tuning, but my hopes are low.  Unfortunately with my current rpm cap of 3,000-3,500 rpms I can't really push it to test if the vibrations get alarmingly worse as the rpms rise further.  I feel like I'm riding with a straightjacket on having to keep the rpms between 2,000 and 3,000 rpms.  This upcoming weekend I'll be clear of the break in miles as I'm going to a rally 200 miles away, and the tuning is scheduled on the 23rd/24th. 

I voiced my low expectations to the service manager, and he advised me to check all the mounting bolts (loosen and retorque them).  They did mention that they didn't remove the transmission so I'll be checking those mounts first.  I'm also going to be looking for a broken frame, I asked them to check when the engine was out but there's no note of it in the service record so I'm assuming they didn't.  They also didn't swap out the rocker support bracket for the SE forged version in my saddle bag, but I suppose they had a lot going on.

Feel like I'm crossing my fingers for a miracle at this point.  The odds of them going through the entire engine and then having the exact same problem at the exact same rpms is ridiculously low, which to me eliminates the engine as the source.

While the motor was apart, was the gear issue checked that jsachs mentioned?

Quote from: Hossamania on September 11, 2024, 09:34:28 PMWhile the motor was apart, was the gear issue checked that jsachs mentioned?

He says they didn't remove gear box so I think they didn't even look at the bottom end Hoss 

Quote from: JSD on September 12, 2024, 07:31:45 PM

Quote from: Hossamania on September 11, 2024, 09:34:28 PMWhile the motor was apart, was the gear issue checked that jsachs mentioned?

He says they didn't remove gear box so I think they didn't even look at the bottom end Hoss

I got lost in the thread, I thought the crank was coming out for check and balance, hence the long time in the shop.
 "B" motors have balancers, those are suspect.

I have S&S crank so hopefully no issues with it. B motor 01 . 

Quote from: Hossamania on September 12, 2024, 08:03:30 PM

Quote from: JSD on September 12, 2024, 07:31:45 PM

Quote from: Hossamania on September 11, 2024, 09:34:28 PMWhile the motor was apart, was the gear issue checked that jsachs mentioned?

He says they didn't remove gear box so I think they didn't even look at the bottom end Hoss

I got lost in the thread, I thought the crank was coming out for check and balance, hence the long time in the shop.
 "B" motors have balancers, those are suspect.

Yeah they said there was a tight spot (maybe a couple?) on the crank to con rod so it needed to be replaced.  They also said the balancer position was correct but the balancer pads were very worn. 

Timkin bearing, darkhorse crank, carillo rods, new stainless valves, I can't think of anything more to be done in the engine.  The vibration has seemed to be toned down a bit since the break in miles.  Not sure if it's just from initial wear or I'm just getting used to it. 

I asked them to look into the transmission a bit as I was having trouble sometimes getting into 6th, it'd only engage halfway and I'd need to hammer it in sometimes.  All I got was a note of "it goes into 6th" in the work order.  I was hoping they'd find something, bent fork maybe or something misaligned but they didn't bother.

The other important thing I have to remember is the tune changes.  When I first noticed the vibration, they tuned the engine WAY off to get rid of the vibration initially, and it worked for a year or so.  The vibration seemed to be getting worse and worse tho until it peaked during my trip.  When they recently changed it to the correct tune for the dyno they said it vibrated so much that they couldn't dyno it much less ride it.  However that same tune I believe is on the bike now, and it's rideable though still dealing with the vibration above 3k rpm like I was with the wrong tune.  I'm very much looking forward to the dyno results and see what happens when it's all dialed in.  I find it hard to believe that a couple of tight spots on the crankshaft was the cause of all this.  I'm also worried it might be another temporary fix until the balancer pads get worn down again. 

Well the bike's back from tuning....and the vibration issue is gone!  At worst it's like 90% gone, I still feel it a bit at very high speeds.  Passed a car without issue, which has been a first since the issue began.  So what was it???

They found that both nuts on the rear air suspension were completely loose, a half inch away from tight.  They replaced the bolts and nuts and torqued them down.  I don't remember exactly but I know it was over 100 ft/lbs.  Now I didn't use a torque wrench on them, but I do remember really cranking on them tight when I was done.  Maybe the came loose from the excessive heat coming off the pavement of the interstate in Kansas, it was over 100 degrees for like 5 straight days when this started getting really bad.  I can't think of any service that needed those bolts removed for anything, I know some need to in order to drain the transmission, but I always drain it by the lowest side plug on the 6spd SE side cover...WAY easier.  I dunno if you can do that with the 5 speed.

Now I get what a few of you are already thinking....I paid $8k for a couple of bolts and nuts.  That's a painful thought, but I essentially had the engine rebuilt at 37k miles.  A bit early at that mileage but not terrible I think, I should be trouble free for a good long while on the engine now with the upgrades.

So next weekend....I'm off to the tail of the dragon around the 7th or 8th and a few days later the barber museum in Burmingham Alabama for their festival.  All week I've been on the fence between the bike issues and the hurricane damage, but they'll have over a week to clean up so I'm not too worried.

Get road conditions before you go. Parts of 40 are closed due to flood damage, as well as Deals Gap.

WTT posted they're closed for the next week or two due to the flash floods.
More info here.

I forgot to call today, I was curious how Wheels of Time museum was doing and unfortunately they don't open again until Thursday now.  I'll call the campsite tomorrow, Turkey Creek Campground and see how they're doing.  From what Google maps is saying the heavy road damage is all east of where I'm staying.  However I am expecting heavier amounts of traffic in the area which is unfortunate.  I've been thinking of ways I can help out but I haven't packed yet and don't know how much spare room I have.  Deals Gap is in fact open but it has heavier traffic from the surround roads being closed, such as i40 like you said.  Fine by me, keeps the speed demons away hopefully.

I still have some mild to moderate vibrations doing 80+.  It's weird how the same rpms range in lower gears are not similar, not sure what's going on there.  Maybe wheel bearings?  My highest annoyance is shifting, I can't get into neutral when the engine's running and I used to be able to do that.  I have one of those EZ shifters extended arm in the transmission cover so the shifting area is a bit tighter.  It was odd how when I went to work a couple days ago I had a difficult time shifting and the bike would start crawling forward with the clutch pulled in and brakes off.....and then on the way back (and ever since, so far) it was completely fine.  Seems like the bike's a slightly different animal every time I get on it. 

Oh the tuning had surprising results, 79hp at like 4000 to 5500 rpm, and 100tq at like 2000 then sloping downward.  First time cracking 100 torque but I'm down 10hp than what I expected and at higher rpms.

The ezy shift you called it reduces pushrod travel making plates drag .