HarleyTechTalk

What do you guys make of this?  Red Line Heavy Duty Shockproof

The viscosity of this purported 75W/90 (75W/250) gear lube was too thick to be measured. It
contained no moisture, and insolubles were low at 0.7%. Universal averages show typical wear levels for a
Harley Davidson transmission after routine use on the oil. Iron and silicon were found in excess in this
sample. Iron is from steel parts (gears, etc), while silicon can come from silicone-based sealer, grease, or
lube, or oil additive. Or, it can be dirt, and if so, it could be relevant to wear, as dirt is highly abrasive.
Resample in another 6,500 miles to monitor

sounds like RL gear oil might just be a bit over hyped LOL. 

Quote from: Jeffd on August 18, 2009, 06:21:26 PM
sounds like RL gear oil might just be a bit over hyped LOL.  

all that wear and power loss

A lot of folks have been successfully using Shockproof Heavy for many years with nothing but accolades.
Can't fault the oil for silicone sealant and dirt in the oil. How many times have you used RL shockproof in this tranny?
I have 3 touring bikes with combined 200,000+ miles without a glitch or "loss of power" 
Bob
PS - "The viscosity of this purported 75W/90 (75W/250) gear lube was too thick to be measured."
What does that mean?

This was my first tranny oil change.  I told them there could be remnants of Mobil 1 75w90.  I switched to RL because I wanted to get away from Mobil 1.  The RL 20w50 tested better than the M1 Vtwin according to Blackstone's.  I can't believe they can't measure thick viscosity, but maybe not.

Also, if the oil is affecting the seals or some such, would that be the silicone and/or dirt issue? 

sure there is Bob, you just know how to tune it out 

Quote from: FLTRI on August 18, 2009, 07:22:32 PM
too thick to be measured."

That's what my Mom used to say about me head...I THINK she was kidding? 

Quote from: FLTRI on August 18, 2009, 07:22:32 PM
A lot of folks have been successfully using Shockproof Heavy for many years with nothing but accolades.
Can't fault the oil for silicone sealant and dirt in the oil. How many times have you used RL shockproof in this tranny?
I have 3 touring bikes with combined 200,000+ miles without a glitch or "loss of power" 
Bob

No big deal! My bet there are far more bikes out there running Syn3 or whatever the flavor of the day at the local dealer than Red Line ever hopes to see, with zero problems! Think about the numbers of bikes HD has produced, and the number of riders that just let the dealer do it. From my experiance the far larger percentage of riders have the dealer service their bikes. That would put the larger percentage of bikes out there running OEM lube, all without any significant failures, probably zero oil related failures.

"Resample in another 6,500 miles to monitor"

My take is they want to sell you another oil test.  I disregarded the rest.

Consider the realities before acting.   Was your transmission having problems on Mobil 1?   Other than a whine sound which is normal of straight cut gears?

Did RL mask a little noise because it is thicker, also expected.  Ever seen metal stuck to the magnet on the engine or trans magnet, especially on a newer bike? Me, all the time.  So it wouldn't surprise me that a lab analysis would also show iron when microscopically analyzed.

I'll bet your trans will work just fine on M1, HD, Red Line or Walmart Super Duper lube.   It's gears and bearings, not rocket science.  I've just seen too many Blackstone results panic attacks when nothing is actually wrong to give them any credibility.

If determining the maintenance intervals for a fleet of over the road long haul diesel trucks, sure... that was the original intent of the testing programs.  I use to be the Service Manager at a Chevy dealer, we had several Corvette owners that kept coming back with Blackstone immenent death reports on their engine or trans lubes.   To the point of they were demanding new engines and free extended warranties... one guy starting talking lemon law.   All with nothing actually wrong with the cars.  Just an overhyped "analysis"  and the last sentence was always -  "Retest in another xxxxxx miles...."   

If you ask Red Line's engineers for a temp. specific viscosity they will tell you that info. is not available as shock proof gear lube is a "semi jell" and it isn't possible to give a rating. They also claim low resistance... does soft butter have less resistance than molasses? And then there's
the foaming question,& seal questions....only Earl knows for sure!

Yes I get it on the retest part.  Everyone sells something.  Than Blackstone gal called me today.  She said the iron wasn't out of line, but wanted me to email Redline and ask if the silicon is an additive or not.  If an additive, it's fine.  If the silcon is from seals or some such, then that would be a possible issue.  So she says.

75W90 gear oil, which is actually of equivalent viscosity to a 10W40 motor oil

75/250 is Redlines designation FWIW. They do not publish technical data on this oil that shows the actual viscosity based on API tests

It is thick and like some API GL6 lubes I have had experience with 460w or even 680w

IME, Shockproof Heavy has quieted trannies without costing power (measurable that is).
All the guys who have switched to Shk/Hvy that stated the tranny shifted easier, quieter and the straight-cut gear noise was less can't all be imagining it.  
As stated, just about any gear oil will work fine. Will it reduce gear noise? Will it cling to the gears during long term storage?
Both of these qualities are what I look for in a tranny oil, not just if it will lubricate.
Bob
PS - "75W90 gear oil, which is actually of equivalent viscosity to a 10W40 motor oil"
Very few folks know that.

I find Blackstone's labs to be quite reputable I have followed their posted reports at Bob the Oil Guys site for several years now and although some reports are doom and gloom just as many are positive. Now that said I read a report over their stating the sodium in Red Line is used as a anti foaming agent  can anybody verify this.

Quote from: 78shOvel on August 19, 2009, 04:26:41 PM
I find Blackstone's labs to be quite reputable I have followed their posted reports at Bob the Oil Guys site for several years now and although some reports are doom and gloom just as many are positive. Now that said I read a report over their stating the sodium in Red Line is used as a anti foaming agent  can anybody verify this.

Here ya go:
http://www.redlineoil.com/contact.aspx
These folks will be more than happy to answer your technical questions. May as well get it from the horses mouth, right?
Bob

Do like they did in the old days...put a Banana in the trans. That will also quieten the noise down. I think they are 75/200 and smell better to!

Quote from: DblackmanC on August 19, 2009, 05:19:44 PM
Do like they did in the old days...put a Banana in the trans. That will also quieten the noise down. I think they are 75/200 and smell better to!

Gotta be honest with you. I don't care for the smell of burning bananas. Tried that in the 60's. LOL!

Silicon or silicone..... big diffrence in the two

Silicon "On Earth, silicon is the second most abundant element (after oxygen) in the crust,[4] making up 25.7% of the crust by mass. ...........In the form of silica and silicates, silicon forms useful glasses, cements, and ceramics. It is also a constituent of silicones, a class-name for various synthetic plastic substances made of silicon, oxygen, carbon and hydrogen, often confused with silicon itself."

Silicone "Silicones are largely inert, man-made compounds with a wide variety of forms and uses. Typically heat-resistant, nonstick, and rubberlike, they are commonly used in cookware, medical applications, sealants, adhesives, lubricants, and insulation. .......Silicones are polymers that include silicon together with carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, and sometimes other chemical elements.

If you have Silicon you have rock dust or contaminates in the oil.
If you have Silicone you have man made contaminates as in sealers.

Not to say you cant have both but there is a big diffrence. As the tranny heats and cools the vent line pulls outside air in and when hot pushes it out. It is located in a dirty place, between the primary cover and tranny. That is also how moisture gets into the tranny. It typically does not rain thee but moisture in the air condenses.

Quote from: RevFastEddy on August 20, 2009, 10:47:22 AM
Silicon or silicone..... big diffrence in the two

Silicon "On Earth, silicon is the second most abundant element (after oxygen) in the crust,[4] making up 25.7% of the crust by mass. ...........In the form of silica and silicates, silicon forms useful glasses, cements, and ceramics. It is also a constituent of silicones, a class-name for various synthetic plastic substances made of silicon, oxygen, carbon and hydrogen, often confused with silicon itself."

Silicone "Silicones are largely inert, man-made compounds with a wide variety of forms and uses. Typically heat-resistant, nonstick, and rubberlike, they are commonly used in cookware, medical applications, sealants, adhesives, lubricants, and insulation. .......Silicones are polymers that include silicon together with carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, and sometimes other chemical elements.

If you have Silicon you have rock dust or contaminates in the oil.
If you have Silicone you have man made contaminates as in sealers.

Not to say you cant have both but there is a big diffrence. As the tranny heats and cools the vent line pulls outside air in and when hot pushes it out. It is located in a dirty place, between the primary cover and tranny. That is also how moisture gets into the tranny. It typically does not rain thee but moisture in the air condenses.

Blackstone will tell you this.  Oil trend analysis is just that a trend.  One oil test will tell you just about nothing.  Looking at 3-4 test will reveal stuff.  Doesn't matter if it's transmission in a bike, helicopter, jet engine gearbox......  I have also seen SOAP samples taken wrong that will throw everything off.

Quote from: hrdtail78 on August 20, 2009, 11:51:04 AM
Blackstone will tell you this.  Oil trend analysis is just that a trend.  One oil test will tell you just about nothing.  Looking at 3-4 test will reveal stuff.  Doesn't matter if it's transmission in a bike, helicopter, jet engine gearbox...... 

I thought if you had Silicone it means you have two larger backrest partitions to rest upon when cruising,
or play with when you stopped...  

Reminds me of a joke...

WALMART OIL ANALYSIS  

One day, in line at the company cafeteria, Jack says to Mike behind him,
"My Harley is running really hotl. I guess I better see a dealer for a tune up."
"Listen, you don't have to spend that kind of money," Mike replies.
"There's a diagnostic computer down at Walmart. Just give it an oil sample and the computer'll tell you what's wrong and what to do about it. It takes ten seconds and costs ten dollars...a hell of a lot cheaper than a dealer."

So Jack deposits an oil sample in a small jar and takes it to Walmart. He
deposits ten dollars, and the computer lights up and asks for the oil
sample. He pours the sample into the slot and waits. Ten seconds later,
the computer ejects a printout:

You have metal in the oil it is coming from a bad bearing in the transmission, appears to be
the main shaft bearing in the support plate, it came off 3rd and 4th gears about 200 miles ago when you
missed a shift in 4th gear. This isn't a major issue the transmission is ok, just change the oil to Synthetic Redline Heavy Shockproof Aisle 34
in automotive, Thank you for shopping at Wal-Mart

That evening while thinking how amazing this new technology was, Jack
began wondering if the computer could be fooled. He mixed some engine oil, primary oil, a stool sample from his dog, urine samples from his wife and daughter, and dropped in some of the new tranny oil mixture for good measure.

Jack hurries back to Walmart, eager to check the results. He deposits ten
dollars, pours in his concoction, and awaits the results. The computer prints the following:

   1. Your engine oil has suffered from overheating, must be the waiting in line at Sturgis to get through downtown: Drain oil change filter to K&N 1254 and use Royal Purple 20E-50r.  Your clutch is slipping, the compensating nut is loose and the stator is only putting out 11.4 volts.., Change the fluids to MTL.
   2. Your dog has ringworm. Bathe him with anti-fungal shampoo.
   3. Your daughter has a cocaine habit. Get her into rehab.
   4. Your wife is pregnant...twin girls. They aren't yours. Get a lawyer.
   5. If you don't quit missing shifts between 3rd and 4th that transmission will need a new gear set...

thank you for shopping at wal-mart.

Quote from: DblackmanC on August 19, 2009, 05:19:44 PM
Do like they did in the old days...put a Banana in the trans. That will also quieten the noise down. I think they are 75/200 and smell better to!

Cow livers too!   More than one old farm truck and tractor out there running around with a liver or two in the trans or rear diff.  I remember helping my uncle work on a tractor differential once that smelled like death.  I asked why it stunk so bad, he said probably all the cow livers he threw in there last year.

We should have sent a sample to Blackstone.

Check this out:
http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=39480.0
Just another thread with the same results.
Bob