HarleyTechTalk

Have had 26G cams in 05 FXSTI (converted to carb) with 06 heads for about 20k miles now. Love the set-up. I'm about 280lbs and the more weight I throw on the better it runs. Have always noticed with this set-up that staying up against the cams was the biggest change to my riding style. Light bike with a big load, I would think an excellent cam for an 88" bagger.
Mark

Thanks for all the great info. I just picked up an '02 Wide Glide project bike. I would say sport cruising. I got a Mikuni HSR42 and V&H Short Shots for it and was thinking of going with the Andrews 26 cam. There seems to be a lot of support for the 21's and I think I would want the off idle torque and don't want any low rpm stumble which I really haven't heard any say they had with the 26's. My Buell didn't come on till about 3k and I definately don't want that. I also ask about cam chain mods I have read about such as replace the stock pads, roller chain conversion, or the hydraulic upgrade. This is my first big bike since my 81 WG so the twin cam is new to me. What do you guys think?
Thanks,
HMC710

I think you will be happy with either cam, the 21 just builds a little more cylinder pressure & that may provide for a little more snap of idle...I would always go with the higher lift shorter duration but that's just my opinion.

Quote from: HMC710 on May 26, 2009, 04:00:18 PM
Thanks for all the great info. I just picked up an '02 Wide Glide project bike. I would say sport cruising. I got a Mikuni HSR42 and V&H Short Shots for it and was thinking of going with the Andrews 26 cam. There seems to be a lot of support for the 21's and I think I would want the off idle torque and don't want any low rpm stumble which I really haven't heard any say they had with the 26's. My Buell didn't come on till about 3k and I definately don't want that. I also ask about cam chain mods I have read about such as replace the stock pads, roller chain conversion, or the hydraulic upgrade. This is my first big bike since my 81 WG so the twin cam is new to me. What do you guys think?
Thanks,
HMC710

Roller chain and hydraulic upgrade can be the same thing if you buy the 07 parts and Andrews 'n' cams. I'd go that route rather than buying the new Harley cam support plate that uses the old cam front roller and ball bearing setup.

Thanks Hawg, got a reply from John at HERKO with his kit info also. I can testify to his customer service, A1. My original plan was to go gear drive, but this looks like it might be a quieter option.

Well this is an older "THREAD" but I thought I would give a review of how I feel about the Andrews 21 "N" that I put in earlier this spring, just got back from a 5 day trip through the mountains of Colorado going over these locations:
Trail Ridge   12,183 feet  "Highest Paved Road In America"
Gore Pass     9,527 feet
Mc Clure Pass 8,755 feet
Red Mountain Pass  11,018 feet
Molas Pass  10,910 feet
Monarch Pass 11,312 feet
Independence Pass  12,095 feet  within 88' of Trail Ridge
Milner Pass 10,758 feet
Coal Bank Pass  10,640 feet
Vail Pass  10,666 feet

Going through Vail, Aspen, Glenwood Springs, Gunnison, Granby, Estes Park, just to name a few spots folks can find on a map.

All in all a 1,111 mile trip over 5 days combined with riding the Durango Silverton Narrow Gauge Railroad Train which was a blast.

While I averaged 46.5 mph I am probably running a bit lean.....so I need some more tuning.  Given the characteristics of the bike:
2002 RKC
95" set up with wiseco 9.0:1 flat top pistons bored to 3.880” (.005 over sized), cometic 0.030" MTL HG, Heads milled to exactly 84 cc's, with some porting done by BC Gerolamy and later fine tuned by another porter who does excellent work:
1.940” Kibblewhite Intake Valves with a 4.380” stem length
1.580” Ferrea Exhaust Valves.
Valve Springs:
Advanced Valves & Valve train Springs (AV&V)
.560” Maximum Lift
155 lbs @ 1.800” / 352 @ 1280” For 5/16” Valves.

Stock Heads run aprx 200 CFM of max airflow and my heads are flowing 275 CFM all the way up to and including .600 lift.  While stock heads will only flow 200 CFM up to and including .400 lift at which point they will stop flowing anymore air.  So essentially I am flowing air adequately enough to use a cam up to a .600 lift whereas stock heads flow at 200 CFM only up to .400 lift.  If you put a cam that has a higher lift than .400 to perform with a stock head it’s not technically ported adequately enough to provide the correct amount of air flow needed to properly do the work the cam’s intended lift was meant to provide.  Which would equate reasoning as to why one person’s build might produce differing results from another person’s build.

Andrews 21 "N" cam running with the Hydraulic Chain Tensioner Set Up.
Super Trapp 2-1 Super Meg exhaust.

Will create @ SEA LEVEL CALCULATIONS:
A)  â€œCorrected” / “Dynamic” Compression @ 9.04:1
B)  "Static" Compression @ 9.47:1
C   "Cold Cranking" Compression @ 175 at 4,900 feet and probably a bit more at sea level most likely around 186.

While the 2002 RKC comes in at 710 lbs, I weigh in at 160 and my wife at 110 and with another 70 lbs of traveling gear inclusive of the saddlebags, and T~Bag here were some of my experiences:

All in all the bike performed marvelous and as expected provided me with great "torque" and responsiveness.  1,100 miles of this trip was spent above 6,500 feet above sea level.  I can only imagine how this bike would feel where most people ride at sea level, heck I would have another 15-20% MORE power and torque....LOL....

The bike climbed the biggest 'hills" with ease, and yet with the 3.37 final gearing I have installed never left me feeling that I wish I had the higher gearing of the 3.15.  I traveled from Glenwood Springs on I70 to the exit for Winter Park going over Vail Pass as well as climbing up from Dillon to the Eisenhower Tunnel and back down all the time easily traveling at speeds from 70-90 mph (hitting the 90 mph was only done long enough to see what the bike would do at such elevation and how it felt....probably only a mile or two and I was seperated from traffic) and still had more throttle left.  Climbing up to eisehower tunnel is a huge climb and I led the traffic up that particular hill.....all the time the bike climbed with ease and yet was quite comfortable coming out of the tunnel back down the highway.

The bike seemed to perform effortlessly and quickly through the gears.  I also found that for the most part when in the mountains that speeds of 45-65 are 90% of the experience and that the 21's are very very user friendly combined with the 3.37 final gearing allowing one to find the right RPMS while climbing without having to constantly shift between gears trying to keep the bike in the right RPM range.   During the course of travel over the 4 days of riding there were only 5-7 times where getting around someone meant being extremely quick and each time the engine, cam, and gearing all responded extremely well providing one with a confidence that the bike would manage such a manuver quite safely and comfortably.

There was also a 4 mile stretch 30 miles north of Durango that was having road work being done leaving the road with loose gravel upon it.  The bike handled this extremely well also as with the 3.37 final gearing one could leave their bike in 2nd gear and traverse this section of highway between 25-30 mph while keeping one's RPMS from 2400-2900 which kept you right on the 21's cam characteristics.  As we all know on loose gravel you don't want your bike 'lugging" and not responding nor do you want to feel like you are going to fast.  I traversed this section of road going both ways when going south you are declining while going north you spend the 4 miles ascending....and each time I felt both the cam and the gearing were complimented nicely with my bike.

Let's just say that I am a big fan of the 21's, which provides the low end torque in combination with the 3.37 final gearing.  Thus far whether I am going 75-90 mph on our interstate highways or 45-65 in the mountains both the cam and the gearing seem to be complimenting one another quite nicely for my 2002 RKC.

Regards,

"Classic"

aren't those colorado passes cool.  21's are great for real world performance no matter how many times you hear "why bother with such a small cam"

Quote from: Jeffd on August 18, 2009, 12:00:05 PM
21's are great for real world performance no matter how many times you hear "why bother with such a small cam"

Yup  

My experience with the 21ns is similar. Just came back from a 5,000 mile round trip to Sturgis. With wife and I and luggage we passed numerous cars and trucks on the two-lane roads we mostly took and I never had a problem even passing uphill. I'm running stock 88 with the 21s and the roller chain conversion. Friends on their 103s were impressed that the bike wasn't that much slower than theirs were.

A lot of great info, thanks everyone! I made my choice for my 02 FXWG3 TC88 that I plan on punching out this winter. Andrews 37G's. After talking w/guys that have done all of them, I felt this is the choice for me and my one up, flat land riding.
Thanks all, great work.
HMC

Awesome thread. Read every single post.  I'm in the process of deciding whether to go with the 21's or 26's.  I'm leaning towards the 21's but wanted to hear what you guys thought.  I ride a 05 FLSTFI with a 95" big bore, almost always solo; although I like to load the bike down and go on long trips up the mountains.  I'm a light rider at 135lbs.  I live in the city and do lots of stop and go riding.  I'm not an aggressive rider. It just seems like the only people who install the 21's are baggers so just wondering if it's a little much for my bike? Thanks so much for all of the great info.

Quote from: vze1mk7d on September 13, 2009, 05:30:16 PM
Awesome thread. Read every single post.  I'm in the process of deciding whether to go with the 21's or 26's.  I'm leaning towards the 21's but wanted to hear what you guys thought.  I ride a 05 FLSTFI with a 95" big bore, almost always solo; although I like to load the bike down and go on long trips up the mountains.  I'm a light rider at 135lbs.  I live in the city and do lots of stop and go riding.  I'm not an aggressive rider. It just seems like the only people who install the 21's are baggers so just wondering if it's a little much for my bike? Thanks so much for all of the great info.

Have 21's in my 06 FLSTFI  88". I like the 21's. If I had a 95" kit I would be happy with either 21 or 26. If you rarely rev past 4k rpm's, 21's will put more tq where you ride...

Thanks for the info.  It seems that the 21's will be right for me.

From what I've read, you won't go wrong with either. I have a 95" in an Ultra and I've been running 26Gs for 2 seasons now. I think they're just fine - the prime reason I chose them is because everything I read 2 years ago said that the 26 would be better for heavier baggers. I don't know if that's true or not, but I like the performance I've gotten out of the 26s.

Good luck with your build!

26's in my RK "88" and I like them.  Going to 95" this winter.
Razar

on my '06 RK I recently went from gear drive andrews 26g to hydrolic andrews 21N.....after 2,300 miles I put in andrews 26N...
I am a big fan of the 26

It seems that it's a 50/50 split.  Which makes sense because they both are great choices.  It's just something I"ll have to decide based on my riding preferences. I think I know what that is but maybe I don't.  I'll have to really pay attention when I ride.  But I'm leaning towards the 21's.  Which would go with an adage I read somewhere else here.  "Which ever cam you think you need, go one smaller". So that would put me at the 21.  Decisions...

Have you called Andrews and talked to them? They're very helpful and will help you make a choice. Andrews lists the 21s as the best for heavy bikes with passenger and touring. It sounds like 26s would be best for you since you don't need as much low-end grunt to get you and your bike moving. But, again, a 10-minute call to Andrews will be your best bet. Either way, you'll be able to tell the difference over the stock cam.

Quote from: Hawg Holler on September 16, 2009, 08:59:42 AM
Have you called Andrews and talked to them? They're very helpful and will help you make a choice. Andrews lists the 21s as the best for heavy bikes with passenger and touring. It sounds like 26s would be best for you since you don't need as much low-end grunt to get you and your bike moving. But, again, a 10-minute call to Andrews will be your best bet. Either way, you'll be able to tell the difference over the stock cam.

FWIW, when I made that call they recommended 26's for my 96" Ultra.  Glad I listened!!

Like Stro...I have a 2007 FLHTC. I added, with the help of Sonny, the Andrews 26h, a Supertrapp Supermeg 2-1, and TTS tuner. No regrets. Initially it felt like a totally different bike. I ran the stock headers, a power commander, and V&H ovals (stock cams) for the first 8500 mi.

I recently picked up a 2002 FXDWG and am now dreaming of cams again....it'll have to wait.


....one last point...I also called Andrews and they told me the 26 would be better for my 07 FLH than the 21. FWIW.

fwiw - I have never read a post or heard of Andrews recommending the 21's when some one asks about 21's and 26's - no matter which bike, 1up or 2up. This is goes for this site and a couple others... Personally, I would trust people who ride and use them daily.

Also, not trying to discount either cam. Just food for thought. Like I said earlier, if I had a 95" kit, either cam would make me happy:)

Quote from: KumaRide on September 16, 2009, 03:56:52 PM
fwiw - I have never read a post or heard of Andrews recommending the 21's when some one asks about 21's and 26's - no matter which bike, 1up or 2up. This is goes for this site and a couple others... Personally, I would trust people who ride and use them daily.

Also, not trying to discount either cam. Just food for thought. Like I said earlier, if I had a 95" kit, either cam would make me happy:)

When I called about the conversion cams two years ago they recommended I go with the 21s in a stock 88. I do all around riding as well as long-range touring two-up.

Also. from the Andrews cam catalog:

"21N  Stock Bolt-in cam: More torque for all around riding with heavy
bikes, stock compression ratios and stock pistons. Similar to #23 cam for EV80. (1700-4800 RPM).

26N  Stock Bolt-in cam 88-95 inches and stock compression ratio. Great for two up touring, this cam will add torque and HP at lower and middle RPM ranges. (1800-5200 RPM)."

Many just flat out believe the 21s are the best overall mild cams ever made for the Twin Cam. I don't have the knowledge to make that statement; only my experience. They do close the intake valves earlier than stock cams and probably earlier than any other cams made for the Twin Cam -- 30 degrees after bottom dead center versus 38 degrees abdc for stock, with more duration and lift. This gives the cams a "tractor engine" quality that's hard to beat if you like running at low rpms and need to get a heavy bike moving from a standstill. The 21s's sweet spot is also just about touring range for most people, which works out to about 70 to 80 mph on a five speed. That means you can pull steep hills at speed with the least effort and without having to downshift.

However, they won't deliver the goods when wound out. I've noticed this when passing. The engine reaches a point in 4th where you need to upshift into fifth in order to move out quickly when you're passing at 80-85 mph. It's not a huge problem, but judging by the specs and Andrews's recommendations, the 26s would stay with you into the higher rpms when passing.

Quote from: Hawg Holler on September 16, 2009, 05:43:13 PM

Quote from: KumaRide on September 16, 2009, 03:56:52 PM
fwiw - I have never read a post or heard of Andrews recommending the 21's when some one asks about 21's and 26's - no matter which bike, 1up or 2up. This is goes for this site and a couple others... Personally, I would trust people who ride and use them daily.

Also, not trying to discount either cam. Just food for thought. Like I said earlier, if I had a 95" kit, either cam would make me happy:)

When I called about the conversion cams two years ago they recommended I go with the 21s in a stock 88. I do all around riding as well as long-range touring two-up.

Also. from the Andrews cam catalog:

"21N  Stock Bolt-in cam: More torque for all around riding with heavy
bikes, stock compression ratios and stock pistons. Similar to #23 cam for EV80. (1700-4800 RPM).

26N  Stock Bolt-in cam 88-95 inches and stock compression ratio. Great for two up touring, this cam will add torque and HP at lower and middle RPM ranges. (1800-5200 RPM)."

Many just flat out believe the 21s are the best overall mild cams ever made for the Twin Cam. I don't have the knowledge to make that statement; only my experience. They do close the intake valves earlier than stock cams and probably earlier than any other cams made for the Twin Cam -- 30 degrees after bottom dead center versus 38 degrees abdc for stock, with more duration and lift. This gives the cams a "tractor engine" quality that's hard to beat if you like running at low rpms and need to get a heavy bike moving from a standstill. The 21s's sweet spot is also just about touring range for most people, which works out to about 70 to 80 mph on a five speed. That means you can pull steep hills at speed with the least effort and without having to downshift.

However, they won't deliver the goods when wound out. I've noticed this when passing. The engine reaches a point in 4th where you need to upshift into fifth in order to move out quickly when you're passing at 80-85 mph. It's not a huge problem, but judging by the specs and Andrews's recommendations, the 26s would stay with you into the higher rpms when passing.

You got me. Did not read your post 2 years ago.

Theo has a 95" kit. The recommendation Stro and dsanchez received for their 96" baggers from Andrews is typical, the 26's.

Quote from: Hawg Holler on September 16, 2009, 05:43:13 PM
...The engine reaches a point in 4th where you need to upshift into fifth in order to move out quickly when you're passing at 80-85 mph...

Whoa.  You do 80 in 4th gear.  The fastest I've taken it is around 60. 

I've read most of the posts regarding the 21's and the 26's on this board and everyone makes both seem awesome.  I think I would be happy with either one so it's just something I'll have to decide for myself.  Anyways, I have some time to decide.  I won't have enough saved up until mid to end winter. This forum is great.

"However, they won't deliver the goods when wound out. I've noticed this when passing. The engine reaches a point in 4th where you need to upshift into fifth in order to move out quickly when you're passing at 80-85 mph. It's not a huge problem, but judging by the specs and Andrews's recommendations, the 26s would stay with you into the higher rpms when passing."

Mine would spool up to 100 in 4th pretty quickly with both 21's and 26's 3.15 gearing.