HarleyTechTalk

Guys, can some one please help.

No history lesson here, so you get the short version..  I am suspect of an intake lifter for my rear cyclinder.  I beleive it is going south for the winter.  Is it possible that a pumped lifter can leak or prevent a valve from opening fully?  Especially when the engine is hot(oil is thinnner?)
No matter what, I am replacing them with nw HD B lifters.  Kicking myself becauae I just replace cam tensioners and bearings.

Can someone explain the operation of a lifter in laymens terms?  Furthermore and most inportant, what are the signs of failure?  I have notice then when the suspected lifter begins to fail, I hear a "chirp" and no, it is NOT the head gasket.
Can a lifter cause a "chirp "when failing?

Any help at all will be appreciated..

Thanks Fella's.

Possible impending failure of the needle bearings in the roller.  If bike is a Touring model, squirt some rubber lube on the rear supports for the mufflers.

Disregarding the application specific stuff, the link has a clear and simple explanation of the operation of a hydraulic lifter:

http://holdenpaedia.oldholden.com/Hydraulic_Lifters

Short and sweet ... the hydraulic portion of the lifter can either bleed down (collapse) or pump up (expand). If it collapses completely it will likely not be able to maintain 0 lash and the valve train timing will be altered somewhat along with noise from excessive lash. If it pumps up (not likely unless the valves float or the check valve and plunger have problems) it can alter valve timing somewhat and possibly hold a valve open long enough to cause piston to valve contact. This condition can also make noise but it is usually of the catastrophic variety.

Roller lifters can have problems with the rollers, roller axles, and bearings. Both chirping and tapping sounds can occur when a roller lifter develops problems in this area.

As I indicated in your other post, physical inspection and/or a bleed down test is about the only way to know for sure if the lifter has a problem. The advise on the muffler mounts is good if it's a touring bike ... lots of folks have been fooled by that one.

Quote from: ederdelyi on October 26, 2009, 05:35:59 AM
Disregarding the application specific stuff, the link has a clear and simple explanation of the operation of a hydraulic lifter:

http://holdenpaedia.oldholden.com/Hydraulic_Lifters

Short and sweet ... the hydraulic portion of the lifter can either bleed down (collapse) or pump up (expand). If it collapses completely it will likely not be able to maintain 0 lash and the valve train timing will be altered somewhat along with noise from excessive lash. If it pumps up (not likely unless the valves float or the check valve and plunger have problems) it can alter valve timing somewhat and possibly hold a valve open long enough to cause piston to valve contact. This condition can also make noise but it is usually of the catastrophic variety.

Roller lifters can have problems with the rollers, roller axles, and bearings. Both chirping and tapping sounds can occur when a roller lifter develops problems in this area.

As I indicated in your other post, physical inspection and/or a bleed down test is about the only way to know for sure if the lifter has a problem. The advise on the muffler mounts is good if it's a touring bike ... lots of folks have been fooled by that one.

Thank you for taking the time to provide the explanation.  It is appreciated.   The rubber mounts are new and lubricated, one one the things I checked first.

I have been diddling around with this problem of a rough running rear cylinder for a month or so.   What made me suspect was when I richened up the low end fuel mixture the rear cyclinder appeared to run a bit better  but now the front cylinder would run sloppy rich.  It gets worse as the engine heats up and I attribute this the the oil thinning out from heat?  Compression is good, front and rear, checked both hot, cold, wet and dry.   All ignition components were changed.  Even pulled the head and had the valves checked by a professional.  All seals and gasket are new.  The bike has 61000 (original lifters) and failed to replace them when I did tensioners and bearing.

I have access to a fairly good set of lifters, 30,000 on them.  Would you suggest trying these out or just go new? I'm convinced the lifter is collasping causing the intake valve not to open fully.  I'm embarrassed to say that it is the only thing that hasn't been replaced or checked.  What a learning experience.  The good thing is I can now tear my bagger down to the bare top cylinders in two to three hours. 

Thanks again

1. If you are going to replace the lifters, do it as a set and use new HD "B" lifters.

2. Are the lifters noisy when the engine is up to operating temp? A collapsed lifter should be making a definite tapping or clacking sound. If they are not noisy, then I doubt that the lifter is the source of your rough running. Some noise on startup is "normal" as the lifter will bleed down depending on which stroke the cylinder was on when it was shut off. The lifter should quiet down as it pumps back up.

From your description a new set of lifters may not solve the issue you have. At 61K, I would say that it would not be a bad idea to replace them, but don't be surprised if the issue you have is still there after you do ... good luck.

I have had, and am aware of several lifter failures that started as a chirping sound. Mine started at 800 miles into a new 124 build. Shut down and removed the lifters and in the short time it ran it had destroyed cams, oil pump and camplate. All of these failures were due to a quality control problem from the same manufacturer and all damaged parts were replaced by this manufacturer. If you have a chirp you better take action now.

It is very very possible that you have a valve sticking in your rear head...  Do you lose power when you hear the "chirping" noise?  (a valve not fully closing?)  If this is the case, you'll want to figure it out before the valve hangs open enough to tag a piston...  just saying...

What year bike and what motor? 

It's a 01 TC95 carbed.   I also suspected a valve problem, tore it down and had the heads checked and insisted the guides, seal be changed.


Only one way to find out if it is a lifter or not.

Like Copperhead, I too had the same lifter supplier problem.  When the roller failed, it caused a "chirping" sound.  If you are hearing a chirping sound, I would not run the engine until the lifters are inspected.

The cost of new HD-Bs are low, I would never put in 30k mile lifters in my bike.  If you are hearing chirping and it is the lifter roller, than chances are your cam(s) as well as other components are toast as well.

If I am reading the original posters posts correctly (I've been known to read them wrong at times  ) he has OEM lifters with 61K on them. Not saying that OEM lifters can't fail or have issues, but his problem didn't appear shortly after installing new lifters from "X" vendor.

While I don't prescribe to the "change lifters every 20-30K" with TC's, at 61K it's certainly possible that a lifter may be going South given the operating conditions that an air-cooled 45 deg. V-twin presents to valve train components. If he's going in to check things (again), then replacing with new OEM B's is the right move, IMO.

What I am saying is that it may not solve his rough running problem and while he's investigating the lifters he should plan on checking other areas, even the ones that he's covered previously. Intake leaks, sticking valves, etc. can cause the problem he's experiencing. If the old lifters show no physical problems (rollers, roller axles, bearings) and there is no evidence of abnormal wear or damage to the camshaft(s), then it's a pretty good sign he should look at other things while he has it apart.

I want to thank you guys for your input.
Pulled the lifters and if these lifter(s) are not bad then I dont what is.  Didnt lose the needlles but that wasnt far away.  Lots of play in the rollers and shaft.  Also one of the plastic/rubber cups on the intake lifter was worn to the poiint where the oil hole as twice as big as should be.  Maybe that is what is causing the lifter to weaken when hot.

Either way, thanks for the input.  Will let you know how the finished project turns out.

"Also one of the plastic/rubber cups on the intake lifter was worn to the poiint where the oil hole as twice as big as should be.  Maybe that is what is causing the lifter to weaken when hot."

I don't think there are any plastic/rubber parts in a lifter, at least not in mine.

I think he's referring to the pushrod cup ... usually dark in color due to the hardening process used.

just dont forget to put those anti-rotation pins back in when you button it up or you will have a problem with the lifters

Quote from: ederdelyi on November 01, 2009, 04:46:39 PM
I think he's referring to the pushrod cup ... usually dark in color due to the hardening process used.

Yes, that is what I was refering to.  What color are the cups when new?

The pic here http://www.harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,17934.msg186473.html#msg186473

is of a new B Lifter

Not meaning to hijack this thread, but sounds like something I've been chasing for a couple years now after an upgrade. my chirp is coming from my pipes V&H longshots no rubber mounts. Started after I put my Big Boyz cleaned up heads on I assumed it was a pushrod rubbing or some weird whistle from the reshaped heads. But the thing that has me thinking now is I replaced my A lifters with B's I got from E-Bay they were stock and looked good (I thought) is the chirping coming from the pipes or somewhere else? I also changed needles B148's any thoughts if it could be lifters?

Some pipes (like the Longshots) will do that, especially with a camshaft that has some overlap and/or certain exhaust timing. Does the sound change if you partially cover the tip of the pipe or obstruct the exhaust flow significantly? If it does, it's likely what I described and nothing to worry about. If not, it may be something mechanical and should be looked into. Nothing wrong with B lifters, good as they get for most street builds.

Same pipes I had before the build,I notice it when its cold, maybe because sometimes I'm on the side. Don't notice it when I'm riding when its hot. Been doing it a couple seasons now dosen't seem to be affecting anything.Is it just me or do some of you guys read a post and your butt hole gets so tight you could probably use it for a cigar cutter. LOL

Well, you might not like the answer, but changing the reversion characteristics of the exhaust port (head work) or the cam can make a set of pipes that made no "chirps" or strange noises before do it after.
I've personally run into this, and that's why I answered your question with the info that I gave. Not slamming your choice of exhaust system, drag pipes or pipes similar to the drag pipe style have exhibited a "chirp" sound in some cases ... it's the truth, no BS.

ederdelyi I think you are correct in what you say, makes sense to me. Thanks