HarleyTechTalk

This is making me crazy.   Engine is as quiet as new.  As the engine heats up the front cylinder exhaust rocker begins to "Tick". Lifter, push rod, cam, valves are new.   On the highway, it is as quiet as anyone would expect.  Stop and go traffic (in 85 plus heat), the tick returns.   Have adjust the pushrod to the point of one flat at a time.  This has helped and it sure seems to come down to the rocker.   Using my $10 stethoscope, there is no doubt that it is the front exhaust rocker.  Here's a strange thing, when the bike idles on the kick stand, the "tick" actually gets quieter?  The other three rocker assembly's are quiet, just the front exhaust is making me crazy.   Besides turning the radio up, what am I missing here? 

Welcome to the club.  Seems to be quite a few of us fighting the same thing.  Crazy Joe has an ongoing thread on the same topic.  I have replaced and lifters and it didn't change a thing.  I still have the stock pushrods.  I have a whole new rocker assembly on order(rocker housing, rocker arms, rocker shafts). They are still waiting on 1 rocker arm.  Crazy Joe is doing the same thing so We will let you know if it cures the problem.

Just asking, Do you have an oil pressure gauge on your bike? I don't on mine and I have wondered if oil pressure may be the problem but then why would just the front exhaust be noisy. 

Just to put you at ease, my bike is an o4 and has been tickking since new.  It has 62000 miles on it now and is still ticking so I don't think it is something that will strand you along the road.  It will just irritate you to no end just like it does to me. 

Also the whole assembly that Im buying cost about $110 so if it fixes it it would be worth it to me.  I am not real crazy about having a shim on the shaft.

Good luck and let us know how it turns out.

                                                       hotstick

                                                 

 : )  Replaced  both Rocker assembles...
Supports, shafts and rockers and aligned everything
That seems to have done the trick. I drove it around
the block and its alot quieter but will need the get it on
the highway for the real test. There was wear on the shaft
not a lot but enough to feel with the finger I will mic the
shafts and the bushings later to see what the wear really is.
I did check the alignment of the rocker boxes and supports....
they were off but was not going in there twice and already had
bought the rocker assemblies plus I had the wear on the shafts.

I agree with Deweysheads... I feel I'm on the right track though
because even when cold I could here that ticky tick : )

Get it hot then decide if you have reached success.
Front exhaust is the usual offender. If they all make noise that is good evidence to suspect rocker shafts and  or bushings. I have heard of many being changed that were not bad. Measure them then decide.
One of my customers was fighting noise and was one of the real detailed measure everyting types and was able to fix his. Cam was defective, bad batch ground with too much lift velocity. Not saying that is the case here just saying there are many basics that have to be right, the heads need to be right (tight guides, protrusion + seats concentric, valve spring pressure right), and all assembly items checked. The temptation to shim the rockers or add oil pressure usually don't help especially if that is not the root cause.

I believe the tick is from side play with the rocker.  While adjusting the pushrod, I inadvertently took the top portion of the rod, move it in and out and heard that distinctive tick. there is significant side play.   Guess shimming or  replacing rockers and shafts are next.  I have some EVO rockers laying around.  I read somewhere that they are the same as the twin cam?  Is that so?

Anyway, thanks for the feedback.  Will let you know what I find.

R/T

EVO and Twinkie same, why not shim your existing front exhaust assembly with SS shims available from Mcmaster Carr.

Quote from: Ridetard on July 04, 2010, 11:06:37 AM
I believe the tick is from side play with the rocker.  While adjusting the pushrod, I inadvertently took the top portion of the rod, move it in and out and heard that distinctive tick. there is significant side play.   Guess shimming or  replacing rockers and shafts are next.  I have some EVO rockers laying around.  I read somewhere that they are the same as the twin cam?  Is that so?

Anyway, thanks for the feedback.  Will let you know what I find.

R/T

Carb of fuelie?

how would being efi or carb make a difference? mine is carbed

Quote from: Deweysheads on July 04, 2010, 07:59:10 AM
Get it hot then decide if you have reached success.
Front exhaust is the usual offender. If they all make noise that is good evidence to suspect rocker shafts and  or bushings. I have heard of many being changed that were not bad. Measure them then decide.
One of my customers was fighting noise and was one of the real detailed measure everyting types and was able to fix his. Cam was defective, bad batch ground with too much lift velocity. Not saying that is the case here just saying there are many basics that have to be right, the heads need to be right (tight guides, protrusion + seats concentric, valve spring pressure right), and all assembly items checked. The temptation to shim the rockers or add oil pressure usually don't help especially if that is not the root cause.

I've heard this front exhaust thing before, however it's all symetrical so what's so special or not about the front exhaust valve train to make noise?
For what it's worth I have some tick at times too. New lifters, shimmed rockers and fresh HQ heads. Is it a geometry thing that sets this valve appart from the rest, or spring clearance issue?  Rear head is completely silent at all temps and rpms where as the front will tick at specific rpms and load. Namely light loads and around 2k rpm. Almost thinking my noise is actually from the piston if that's possible. Valves aren't infuenced with load changes that I know of. When my stock 96 was new it had this tick for the first few k , then went away and never returned. So far this one is not getting silent. Not any worse either, but will be tearing down this winter to replace noisey pistons and would like some specifics to look for and isolate the cause of this noise.
Ron

make sure the front exhaust push rod is not rubbing on the pushrod tube. you can tell by a shiney mark on the pushrod towards the top of the tube

Ron
HQ sells high quality heads with the proper clearances and protrusions are close to stock. Might just be the dynamics of the springs. I have changed them to beehives but no feedback on less or more noise.

I had the same problem in my '97 Road King, which is an Evo motor of course.

It was on the front exhaust, and I adjusted the pushrod out about another turn.

It went away, and it hasn't come back. That was about 40,000 miles ago.

Any sense of how many PSI required to keep lifters pumped up?
FWIW, I think my old 'A' lifters were just as quiet after 100K miles, if not more so, than my new 'B' lifters are.

I just got back from my test drive and no noise
all is good : )  drove in the city and on the Highway
90* outside so I feel I found my problem.

Quote from: dunbarton on July 04, 2010, 02:04:46 PM
Any sense of how many PSI required to keep lifters pumped up?
FWIW, I think my old 'A' lifters were just as quiet after 100K miles, if not more so, than my new 'B' lifters are.

I agree on the A lifters.  Took my new B lifters out and reinstalled my old A lifters.  90% of my noise went away....

Took Joe's route and replaced the suspect rocker and shaft.   Dont want to jinx myself and say that took care of it because it sounds great so far.

One thing I noticed that is causing concern!  Before installing the rocker cover, I fired the bike up.   Was expecting to see all sorts of oil coming up from the push rods.  Typically I have a mess if the bike is stated without the rocker cover but didnt see anything.  Oil pressure is great, relief valve seems to be functioning.  When I took things apart, the rocker assembly was by no means dry, no signs of scoring.  Im worrying about my valve guides and stems.
Should I be concerned?  Could it be that I have my pushrods adjusted too tight?

Quote from: Deweysheads on July 04, 2010, 01:23:56 PM
Ron
HQ sells high quality heads with the proper clearances and protrusions are close to stock. Might just be the dynamics of the springs. I have changed them to beehives but no feedback on less or more noise.

I believe the HQ springs are about 30lbs over stock, so what in the spring dynamics can cause noise from them? Surely they don't shift around at the head or retainer?
Ron

Well guys, here's my tale of woe. Number 1 was a 65 PH in 69, a 78 Sporty, a 80 WG, new 81 LR, new 82 FLH, 93" home brew, new 83 FLHT, all shovels and all was well. 84 Evo & still great, even better. THEN THE BS! New 87 Evo, new 91 Evo, new E94 Evo & all had the front exhaust tick. This is what I tried. Early 84 85 lifters & new 86 & up lifters , 5 or 6 different cams, different cam gears, different pinion gears, reground a cam to less ramp & drop off, 5 or 6 different push rods, shimmed rocker arms, heavier valve springs, lighter valve springs, more oil pressure, less oil pressure, bored out all oil passages, different lifter blocks, all different oils grades & makes, align heads/rocker boxes, increased oil flow & pressure to the lifter bodies by making some feed holes smaller, lessened oil flow to top & bottom end to increase flow to lifters, an outside oil feed to just the front lifter block.  Absolutely nothing worked so I kicked HD to the curb & climbed onto Yamahas. Then bought an 06 Twinky & the BS was there again. Not as bad, but still a PO. Kicked it to the curb & then took a 99 Twinky FLHTU FI with over 147000 miles on it for a spin & be damned if it wasn't quiet. A small ticky @ about 2500 but not near as all the other new & improved. The engine has been done over & all work done by the HD dealer. Seen his printouts & almost 18000.00 bucks spent on it since 2004 & he died this spring.
Anyways, my take here is the problem is oil aeration in the front lifter. Liquid can't compress but air can & if there's air bubbles in the lifter, the push rod will compress it on the downward stroke. When the valve seats, all stops but the push rod is still going down & compressing the air in the lifter making a space @ the push rod & rocker arm . Then it springs up & causes the click we all hear. Now, where does the air come from & why not in the rear lifter system? Air bubbles can fester in fast moving fluids & I think this is the problem. When I cut off the amount of oil going to the front lifter block, it got quieter. When I explained I had a part solution to HD back in 96, they wanted me to come down & do 2 bikes for them. It was when the lawyers got involved that I backed out & bought a new 96 Yamaha Royal Star.
With the 06 Twinky, I replaced the lifters with a set out of Texas & they did make an improvement but not enough for me.
Sorry for the long rant but this is the first time I ever shared my findings & so maybe someone can go on from here.

FWIW,
Good Hunting!

Kraut  thanx for your input.

Quote from: Kraut on July 07, 2010, 02:11:13 PM
Well guys, here's my tale of woe. Number 1 was a 65 PH in 69, a 78 Sporty, a 80 WG, new 81 LR, new 82 FLH, 93" home brew, new 83 FLHT, all shovels and all was well. 84 Evo & still great, even better. THEN THE BS! New 87 Evo, new 91 Evo, new E94 Evo & all had the front exhaust tick. This is what I tried. Early 84 85 lifters & new 86 & up lifters , 5 or 6 different cams, different cam gears, different pinion gears, reground a cam to less ramp & drop off, 5 or 6 different push rods, shimmed rocker arms, heavier valve springs, lighter valve springs, more oil pressure, less oil pressure, bored out all oil passages, different lifter blocks, all different oils grades & makes, align heads/rocker boxes, increased oil flow & pressure to the lifter bodies by making some feed holes smaller, lessened oil flow to top & bottom end to increase flow to lifters, an outside oil feed to just the front lifter block.  Absolutely nothing worked so I kicked HD to the curb & climbed onto Yamahas. Then bought an 06 Twinky & the BS was there again. Not as bad, but still a PO. Kicked it to the curb & then took a 99 Twinky FLHTU FI with over 147000 miles on it for a spin & be damned if it wasn't quiet. A small ticky @ about 2500 but not near as all the other new & improved. The engine has been done over & all work done by the HD dealer. Seen his printouts & almost 18000.00 bucks spent on it since 2004 & he died this spring.
Anyways, my take here is the problem is oil aeration in the front lifter. Liquid can't compress but air can & if there's air bubbles in the lifter, the push rod will compress it on the downward stroke. When the valve seats, all stops but the push rod is still going down & compressing the air in the lifter making a space @ the push rod & rocker arm . Then it springs up & causes the click we all hear. Now, where does the air come from & why not in the rear lifter system? Air bubbles can fester in fast moving fluids & I think this is the problem. When I cut off the amount of oil going to the front lifter block, it got quieter. When I explained I had a part solution to HD back in 96, they wanted me to come down & do 2 bikes for them. It was when the lawyers got involved that I backed out & bought a new 96 Yamaha Royal Star.
With the 06 Twinky, I replaced the lifters with a set out of Texas & they did make an improvement but not enough for me.
Sorry for the long rant but this is the first time I ever shared my findings & so maybe someone can go on from here.

FWIW,
Good Hunting!

I second that thank you.that makes perfect and logical sense.
Why would you cut off the oil supply?  How exactly did you remedy the problem?  Would it make ssne to bleed the pushrod in order to eliminate the air bubble?

Well my Scooter Tramps, here's a little more info.
To slow down the oil flow to the lifter block, I plugged the lifter block feed hole with epoxy & then drilled the hole about 1/4 of the size & this quieten things down a bit. I then reopened the hole & did the same to the bottom of the push rod to keep more oil in the lifter. Still no difference from original noise. Then I took the lifter apart & did the same epoxy trick to the part of the lifter that feeds the pushrod. Still no damn difference.RRRRRRRRRRRRRRR! So, with this in mind, I went back & restricted the oil flow to the lifter as I intially did & it was quieter. See, the 84s, 85s & early 86s were quiet but sometimes they idled with the oil light flickering. I have a friend with an 85 that is doing just that & his scoot is as quiet as all other 84s & 85s I've listened to. HD had put a resticter in the crank to lessen oil flow down there & boost the flow to the top end. They damn well knew there was a problem but once lawyers got involved, they went numb. This as why I didn't divulge my work to them & they were a little off but said until I sign the papers they sent me, they couldn't talk anymore.
It seems to me, that the oil flowing to the intake lifters does the job there but still flows to the exhaust lifter & in all the churning, bubbles occur. This bubbly oil has no escape, as per intake, so is fed into the exhaust lifter side of the lifter block. This frothy oil is then injested into the exhaust lifter itself & now the BS begins. Why the front cylinder much more than the rear I don't know, I'm still out on that.
Oops, gotta go. The grand daughters are at the door, all THREE of them. All sweethearts

FWIW,
Good Hunting!

Well I 2 went down this road and on the advise of King of Cube on this site.(Years ago) He suggested the oil was becoming aerated and to start using non-synthetic Spectro straight 50w. Syn oil doesn't dissipate air quickly.  I was running amsoil 20w50 I figured WTH I'll switch but I didn't use straight 50w. I'll be damned if it was much quieter . I probably would be more so if I used straight 50 but didn't want to swap once it got colder. At this point some of you may want to try it you don't have anything to lose.

  When i was a lot younger i worked at a engine shop .We would see lots of old valves  that the end of the stem would have one edge worn more than the other .I believe they are designed to rotate as the rocker puts pressure on one edge of the valve  .Carbon build up(usually on the intake) or worn guides would stop this and i would think lead to more valve train slop (noise)as the lifters wore and didn't take up the slack. Of course the fulcrum point of the rockers were always in bad shape too. Back then nobody heard of synthetic. I guess my question would be are the valves still designed to rotate? The intake valves probably don't see the amount of  carbon buildup because of fuel injection and the lower mileage of a lot of these engines. Are these stems wearing uneven? Do  any of the engine builders remove the oil limiting disk in the lifter to put more oil to the top end? or is that a big no no.

Don't get up, it's just me, AGAIN!
On the 50 wt & Syn oils. In 94 I tried Syn 20+50 & pretty well all lifters rattled. In fact, it was quite a din. My take on this was that the Syn oils is more pumpable than Dino oils & thus a higher rate of flow, thus more air bubbles. When hot, the bubbles didn't disperse because Syn oil had kept its' viscosity better. Now on our 99 Twinky, not so much difference but still some. I did try different 50 Dino oils & because of their viscosity, retained the air bubbles more than thinner weights. One of the quietest was 15+40. Noisy when cold, greater pumpability, but quieter when hot, faster bubbles dispertion. On all these oils, the constant thing was the ticking moved around @ different RPMs. Right now on our 99 Twinky, a shade ticky @ 2500 but pretty good @ all others. Also, the noise would & still does, move around & different times of the day on all my 4 Evos & 2 Twinkys. Quieter in the early AM & evening/night than in mid day. My only answer here is temperatures causing fluctuations in viscosity/pumpability. What the Hades else could it be? Now, your milage may vary.

FWIW,
Good Hunting!

Herr Loco!
I haven't found the valve stems worn uneven on any of the engines I tore down. This ticky thingy was right from brand new on our 87, 91, & 94 EVOs. The 06 Twinky only had about 20,000 KMs, about 12,500 miles so I just lumped it with all the rest.
Just tried 50 Dino, 20+50 Valvoline VR1 Dino racing oil, & now HD 20+50 Dino on our 99 Twinky & the HD stuff is even quieter than the other 2, especially the 50wt. Going to run this for a while & see what happens & if any major improvements or trips south, will let ya all know.

FWIW,
Good Hunting!