HarleyTechTalk

Ok initial Vtune is pretty well done, and I understand
that CLB may or may not need to be changed.

My thought was to lean out the CLB in the "cruising Range"

55, 65, 75 MPH

Did a data run to see what would show, being that RPM and kPa are the
two items as I can see need to be determined in order to make the CLB change
in the proper area.

When running steady 65 MPH the RPM is around 2500 in 6th
and KPA is approximately 50. This with manual throttle,

IN that the table shows 45 and 60 kPa as values do you need to set a lower numerically
CLB for just those two cells at the appropriate RPM in order to lean out the mix slightly for higher fuel mileage when cruising the interstate.

If so, what values have you used to obtain higher MPG, I'm betting high 40's to low 50's will be possible.

Yep I know I have to re Vtune after the update.

ALso for power, what CLB's have you used or feel is appropiate for WOT or hard acceleration.

You can lean it out to about 467, but I dont think you see much gain with a couple of points.

CLB only comes into play in closed loop.  Acceleration and WOT is not part of this.

Thought I'd give it a shot to see what happens...

What about the kPa range, should you straddle what the data is
telling you that it's hitting, IE data shows fluctuations from 45 to 55
but the CLB table optons are 45 and 65 so do you set both cells
under the 45 and 65 columns to a lower setting.

Set both cells.  The data in the cells isn't 'hard' and it edges into the next cells both ways when getting close.

Plus... cruise will vary depending upon terrain.  I feel you can get it fairly close.  I would stick with 600 or so.  Gasoline IS a crap shoot anymore.  I would, personally, sacrifice the last bit of mileage to stay a bit cooler than stock.  The smallest CLB from TTS is 585 on a Stage 1 tune (TA205)  Even TD205 is over 600, stock from TTS.    The desire to run lean may be tempered by the fact that none of US know what the stock tune demands at this range.  Surely, it CAN be fatter than Stoich in this range, and still be EPA compliant.  How do we KNOW?  It would be very instructional if Steve were to post up a stock map we could peruse using Mastertune....!!!

Also, do some data runs and look for timing being pulled and LISTEN for ping on roll on.

THEN do some v-tune runs.

This is my CLB table:

801   801   801   801   801
781   781   781   781   801
781   781   781   781   801
781   781   781   781   801
781   781   781   781   801

I have tried many different numbers in these tables and then V-tuned and test drove thru at least two tanks of gas on every version. I didn't see a big difference in MPG between the different CLB changes. The degree to which the AFR chart was set to stay in closed loop had a much bigger impact on MPG. (well, that and hot-rodding it)...

There was however, a big difference in performance (both in and out of closed loop). The main reason I settled on this table combination was to keep the 103 running cooler.

This is my AFR table:

14.6   14.6   14.6   14.6   14.6   14.6   14.6   14.2   13.7   13.2   13.2   13.2
14.6   14.6   14.6   14.6   14.6   14.6   14.6   14.2   13.7   13.2   13.2   13.2
14.6   14.6   14.6   14.6   14.6   14.6   14.6   14.2   13.7   13.2   13.2   13.2
14.6   14.6   14.6   14.6   14.6   14.6   14.6   14.2   13.7   13.2   13.2   13.2
14.6   14.6   14.6   14.6   14.6   14.6   14.6   14.2   13.7   13.2   13.2   13.2
14.6   14.6   14.6   14.6   14.6   14.6   14.6   14.2   13.7   13.2   13.2   13.2
14.6   14.6   14.6   14.6   14.6   14.6   14.6   14.2   13.7   13.2   13.2   13.2
14.6   14.6   14.6   14.6   14.6   14.6   14.6   14.2   13.7   13.2   13.2   13.2
14.6   14.6   14.6   14.6   14.6   14.6   14.6   14.2   13.7   13.2   13.2   13.2
14.2   14.2   14.2   14.2   14.2   14.2   14.2   14.2   13.7   13.2   13.2   13.2
13.7   13.7   13.7   13.7   13.7   13.7   13.7   13.7   13.7   13.2   13.2   13.2
13.2   13.2   13.2   13.2   13.2   13.2   13.2   13.2   13.2   13.2   13.2   13.2
13.2   13.2   13.2   13.2   13.2   13.2   13.2   13.2   13.2   13.2   13.2   13.2
13.2   13.2   13.2   13.2   13.2   13.2   13.2   13.2   13.2   13.2   13.2   13.2
13.2   13.2   13.2   13.2   13.2   13.2   13.2   13.2   13.2   13.2   13.2   13.2
13.2   13.2   13.2   13.2   13.2   13.2   13.2   13.2   13.2   13.2   13.2   13.2
13.2   13.2   13.2   13.2   13.2   13.2   13.2   13.2   13.2   13.2   13.2   13.2

Bear in mind that conditions outside the CLB ranges also use the offset set in CLBs. According to my understanding, this combination of tables above should result is offsets something like this:

AFR OFFSET                                     
RPM   MAP                                 
   20   30   40   50   55   60   65   70   75   80   90   100
750   0.46   0.46   0.46   0.46   0.46   0.46   0.46   0.46   0.46   0.46   0.46   0.46
1000   0.46   0.46   0.46   0.46   0.46   0.46   0.46   0.46   0.46   0.46   0.46   0.46
1250   0.35   0.35   0.35   0.35   0.35   0.35   0.35   0.35   0.35   0.35   0.35   0.46
1500   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.35   0.46
1750   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.35   0.46
2000   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.35   0.46
2250   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.35   0.46
2500   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.35   0.46
3000   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.35   0.46
3500   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.35   0.46
4000   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.35   0.46
4500   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.35   0.46
5000   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.35   0.46
5500   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.35   0.46
6000   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.35   0.46
6500   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.35   0.46
7000   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.25   0.35   0.46

or actual AFR something like this:

ACTUAL AFR                                     
RPM   MAP                                 
   20   30   40   50   55   60   65   70   75   80   90   100
750   14.22   14.22   14.22   14.22   14.22   14.22   14.22   13.74   13.24   12.74   12.74   12.74
1000   14.22   14.22   14.22   14.22   14.22   14.22   14.22   13.74   13.24   12.74   12.74   12.74
1250   14.33   14.33   14.33   14.33   14.33   14.33   14.33   13.85   13.35   12.85   12.85   12.74
1500   14.43   14.43   14.43   14.43   14.43   14.43   14.43   13.95   13.45   12.95   12.85   12.74
1750   14.43   14.43   14.43   14.43   14.43   14.43   14.43   13.95   13.45   12.95   12.85   12.74
2000   14.43   14.43   14.43   14.43   14.43   14.43   14.43   13.95   13.45   12.95   12.85   12.74
2250   14.43   14.43   14.43   14.43   14.43   14.43   14.43   13.95   13.45   12.95   12.85   12.74
2500   14.43   14.43   14.43   14.43   14.43   14.43   14.43   13.95   13.45   12.95   12.85   12.74
3000   14.43   14.43   14.43   14.43   14.43   14.43   14.43   13.95   13.45   12.95   12.85   12.74
3500   13.95   13.95   13.95   13.95   13.95   13.95   13.95   13.95   13.45   12.95   12.85   12.74
4000   13.45   13.45   13.45   13.45   13.45   13.45   13.45   13.45   13.45   12.95   12.85   12.74
4500   12.95   12.95   12.95   12.95   12.95   12.95   12.95   12.95   12.95   12.95   12.85   12.74
5000   12.95   12.95   12.95   12.95   12.95   12.95   12.95   12.95   12.95   12.95   12.85   12.74
5500   12.95   12.95   12.95   12.95   12.95   12.95   12.95   12.95   12.95   12.95   12.85   12.74
6000   12.95   12.95   12.95   12.95   12.95   12.95   12.95   12.95   12.95   12.95   12.85   12.74
6500   12.95   12.95   12.95   12.95   12.95   12.95   12.95   12.95   12.95   12.95   12.85   12.74
7000   12.95   12.95   12.95   12.95   12.95   12.95   12.95   12.95   12.95   12.95   12.85   12.74

But that's my interpretation and may not be entirely accurate, jim

OH, and depending on type of riding, I get anywhere from 41 (two-up and lower gears) to 52 (all highway in 6th gear)

Jim

"Bear in mind that conditions outside the CLB ranges also use the offset set in CLBs. According to my understanding, this combination of tables above should result is offsets"

Are you sure about this?  It is my understanding that the CLB table only affects the map during closed loop.  But I have been wrong before.

I was thinking that CLBs also do NOT impact open loop.  How can they directly?  The O2s are taken off line when in open loop, and the bike runs on pure installed map.  CLOSED Loop Bias (CLB) should only be in play when we are altering how the O2 sensors read while in use.

The APVs from closed loop operation DOES impact open loop areas, though.

QuoteThe APVs from closed loop operation DOES impact open loop areas, though.

Quote from: hrdtail78 on July 11, 2010, 08:15:21 AM
"Bear in mind that conditions outside the CLB ranges also use the offset set in CLBs. According to my understanding, this combination of tables above should result is offsets"

Are you sure about this?  It is my understanding that the CLB table only affects the map during closed loop.  But I have been wrong before.

This is my understanding from what I have read and been told. The offsets carry over into open loop as far as I know. Maybe we can get Steve to clarify this better.

jb

Quote from: wavlovr1 on July 11, 2010, 10:37:34 AM

Quote from: hrdtail78 on July 11, 2010, 08:15:21 AM
"Bear in mind that conditions outside the CLB ranges also use the offset set in CLBs. According to my understanding, this combination of tables above should result is offsets"

Are you sure about this?  It is my understanding that the CLB table only affects the map during closed loop.  But I have been wrong before.

This is my understanding from what I have read and been told. The offsets carry over into open loop as far as I know. Maybe we can get Steve to clarify this better.

jb

FYI: there is a whole section labeled "closed loop bias tables" that covers all this under the "help" files.
Part reads:

The Closed-loop Bias Table:
The Closed-Loop Bias table is used to shift the AFR richer or leaner during closed-loop operation. This table is a function of engine speed and map load. The cell values are the switching voltage that the ECM controls to. A lower voltage will control leaner, and a higher number controls richer. This table is used by the ECM in addition to the AFR table to determine what AFR to control to.

There's much more, check it out!

The way the CLBs affect open-loop are (well, there's actually two ways):

When in closed-loop, whatever it takes for fueling to get centered on whatever CLB is in use at the moment, if this (the resultant fueling calculation) is different than the base programming is set for, it will (within various limits) get accounted-for via the appropriate AFV. 

1)  Whenever you're in an area of operation that's normally closed-loop for you and the applicable AFV is up-to-date-enough, when you go open-loop there, the fueling will be appropriate for the condition, even though the actual "AFR" value may not match what's in the programming table there.  This is brought about (in one way) by having a CLB being different than 450 (or the direct equivalent of CLB modification, the "nightrider" IEDs) in use.  Say you caused the programming's "14.6" to be "14.2" instead at some location in the VE tables (TPS/RPM scale).  If you're there and the ECM has made the adaptation, when you go to a higher MAP there, the same adaptation to the fueling calculations will be used there, too.

2)  When you (especially) v-tune with large(r) CLBs, the same thing happens all the same, except now it'll be "burned in" to the ECM so it'll happen with all the AFVs at 100%.  If you set your VE tables in closed-loop with these "different" CLBs, any fueling calculation there will be "off" from the programmed "AFR"s, no matter what AFR value you have in there, by the percentage difference between what you'd really mixed for the ECM to think it was "14.6".  If you were fatter by 0.4 "AFR", that would be 2.8% extra fuel over what's in the AFR table.  This value ("0.973x", in this case) would be what you apply elsewhere in the AFR table, not the "point spread", to determine what the actual "AFR" will be out the pipe vs what's in the table.

Again, perhaps more simply, in any area in the VE table you v-tuned with a larger CLB, the ECM will have the information to make "14.6" actually be, say, "14.2".  The difference will be a percentage.  This same percentage will also apply against any other AFR value you wind up using in that VE location.

This is a little tricky because the fueling table is MAP-based while the VE table is using throttle opening instead on that axis.  So the correlation is not only indirect, but quite variably so.

Man, it'd be great to have a "lambda" calibration for my 09 Ultra!

Hey, Steve, would the AFV tables, such as they are, have MAP or TPS axes (particularly, for the moment, in these "AFR" calibrations)?

Quote from: wavlovr1 on July 11, 2010, 10:37:34 AM

Quote from: hrdtail78 on July 11, 2010, 08:15:21 AM
"Bear in mind that conditions outside the CLB ranges also use the offset set in CLBs. According to my understanding, this combination of tables above should result is offsets"

Are you sure about this?  It is my understanding that the CLB table only affects the map during closed loop.  But I have been wrong before.

This is my understanding from what I have read and been told. The offsets carry over into open loop as far as I know. Maybe we can get Steve to clarify this better.

jb

What offset?  The offset is a voltage reading while O2s are in use.  If O2s are not in use by the ECM, I would like to know how the offset can possibly come into play.  SHOW where you read this.

If it does in ANY way... I'm going open loop and be done with it.  APVs are bad enough at times.

Quote from: wurk_truk on July 12, 2010, 05:27:39 AM

Quote from: wavlovr1 on July 11, 2010, 10:37:34 AM

Quote from: hrdtail78 on July 11, 2010, 08:15:21 AM
"Bear in mind that conditions outside the CLB ranges also use the offset set in CLBs. According to my understanding, this combination of tables above should result is offsets"

Are you sure about this?  It is my understanding that the CLB table only affects the map during closed loop.  But I have been wrong before.

This is my understanding from what I have read and been told. The offsets carry over into open loop as far as I know. Maybe we can get Steve to clarify this better.

jb

What offset?  The offset is a voltage reading while O2s are in use.  If O2s are not in use by the ECM, I would like to know how the offset can possibly come into play.  SHOW where you read this.

If it does in ANY way... I'm going open loop and be done with it.  APVs are bad enough at times.

My understanding (correct or incorrect) was gained by email questions I asked Steve. Hopefull he will see this thread and clarify some.

jb

Quote from: glens on July 11, 2010, 08:38:31 PM
Man, it'd be great to have a "lambda" calibration for my 09 Ultra!
Hey, Steve, would the AFV tables, such as they are, have MAP or TPS axes (particularly, for the moment, in these "AFR" calibrations)?

I agree, I'd rather see lambda for my 09
love to see an option to do 09's by Lambda or AFR.
one table to deal with under all situations. 

less is more...

From what I read here in th ethread some of you are mixing two different things together. The CLB is the voltage YOU set as the centering point for the O2 system to work at. That's it, nothing more nothing less. Now what YOU do with it is up to you. If you want the system to agree you need to set the CLB to about 450 mv, that way the AFR table will agree with the exhaust output.

Now lets see what you really get with a setting of 450 mv.


450 = 14.68 which by all math should be rounded to 14.7.
645 = 14.64 which by all math should be rounded to 14.6.
741 = 14.61 which by all math should be rounded to 14.6.

So when you change the CLB value you are moving the centering point for the VE tables IF you use Vtune for tuning. Hope this makes sense to you all.

Quote from: Steve Cole on July 12, 2010, 10:29:19 AM
From what I read here in th ethread some of you are mixing two different things together. The CLB is the voltage YOU set as the centering point for the O2 system to work at. That's it, nothing more nothing less. Now what YOU do with it is up to you. If you want the system to agree you need to set the CLB to about 450 mv, that way the AFR table will agree with the exhaust output.

Now lets see what you really get with a setting of 450 mv.


450 = 14.68 which by all math should be rounded to 14.7.
645 = 14.64 which by all math should be rounded to 14.6.
741 = 14.61 which by all math should be rounded to 14.6.

So when you change the CLB value you are moving the centering point for the VE tables IF you use Vtune for tuning. Hope this makes sense to you all.

So Steve, would my charts in reply 4 be correct or am I still missing something?

Thanks, Jim

Jim

I could not answer because I do not know how you tuned it. If you used Vtune to do all the VE table tuning then yes you are correct but if you did not use Vtune to do all the tuning then No. Vtune uses the ECM to tune so it applies what YOU put into the CLB as an offset from 14.6 everywhere you used it. Does this make sense to you?

This is what I w

Quote from: Steve Cole on July 12, 2010, 10:29:19 AM
From what I read here in th ethread some of you are mixing two different things together. The CLB is the voltage YOU set as the centering point for the O2 system to work at. That's it, nothing more nothing less. Now what YOU do with it is up to you. If you want the system to agree you need to set the CLB to about 450 mv, that way the AFR table will agree with the exhaust output.

Now lets see what you really get with a setting of 450 mv.


450 = 14.68 which by all math should be rounded to 14.7.
645 = 14.64 which by all math should be rounded to 14.6.
741 = 14.61 which by all math should be rounded to 14.6.

So when you change the CLB value you are moving the centering point for the VE tables IF you use Vtune for tuning. Hope this makes sense to you all.

So are you saying that the CLB changes are very very small, I don't see much more than a .1 difference in the extremes, and this only really operates when the cells are set to 14.6

Can it really make any difference at all?

From an emissions standpoint there are large changes, from an AFR view not so much. If you to look at engine cylinder temperatures you can measure the changes as well.

Quote from: Steve Cole on July 12, 2010, 04:44:17 PM
Jim

I could not answer because I do not know how you tuned it. If you used Vtune to do all the VE table tuning then yes you are correct but if you did not use Vtune to do all the tuning then No. Vtune uses the ECM to tune so it applies what YOU put into the CLB as an offset from 14.6 everywhere you used it. Does this make sense to you?

yes, used VTune and was pretty sure that is how it worked. OK, so my charts are accurate then.

Thanks Steve
jim

Quote from: Steve Cole on July 12, 2010, 04:51:51 PM
From an emissions standpoint there are large changes, from an AFR view not so much. If you to look at engine cylinder temperatures you can measure the changes as well.

So we're using it to trim or add small amounts of fuel for performance or
economy, but only slightly trimming the mix from the AFR/VE settings or
really using it for something it wasn't really intended for, it's an EPA tuning
application for fine tuning?

Not that it won't work as a power/mileage assistant.

Quote from: hotroadking on July 13, 2010, 06:51:37 AM

Quote from: Steve Cole on July 12, 2010, 04:51:51 PM
From an emissions standpoint there are large changes, from an AFR view not so much. If you to look at engine cylinder temperatures you can measure the changes as well.

So we're using it to trim or add small amounts of fuel for performance or
economy, but only slightly trimming the mix from the AFR/VE settings or
really using it for something it wasn't really intended for, it's an EPA tuning
application for fine tuning?

Not that it won't work as a power/mileage assistant.

The main advantage I have seen is being able to run mostly in closed loop, while providing a slightly richer mixture resulting in a cooler running motor. Oil temps at dipstick have dropped a good 30-40 degrees on average on my 103. Now I don't worry about the motor melting anymore...

jb

and another advantage is: if all the electronics are not working up to 100% of capability, you can put it in open loop and it should run like a carbed bike...
burgie