HarleyTechTalk

Did the upgrade on my 05 FLSTNI last winter. So, with all the white crap we just got, I figuresd I had nothing better to and went ahead and opened up my cam chest. After a hard 20kmi, this is what the outter shoe looked like. I haven't pull ed inner one yet. They look worse in the pictures than they are. The deepest parts of the grooves are towards the end and I can't catch them with my finger nail. Haven't seen it posted yet and just thought I would share. Sorry about the bad photos. Gotta charge the batteries up for my good camera!

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I happen to be looking at a set today that belong to Tweekmytwin bike and he had 21k on a set,  they looked a little better than yours.  very little wear.       if I didn't like my gear drive sound so much, I would be running them on mine.

I've seen others elsewhere that had considerable wear, a few had worn down to the moulded in metal socket that supports the spring and piston, on those I would suspect the wear material just having been thin on top from manufacture.

Can someone measure the thickness of the wear material and wall thickness of the socket ?  Maybe in the New Year I could buy (!) a tensioner to measure one myself. 

Boy for 21k that seems like alot of wear,The same design is used in the automotive world, Iv had these apart with 150k that didnt have that mutch wear. Im still not sold on the upgrade,time will tell.

Dave

I'm thinking these will follow some of the same rules as the older spring loaded design. Once the chain has been polished from running the next set of shoes will last much longer. High heat will likely kill these in short order as well, so if anyone is seeing 275-300 oil temps they will have a quick death. Plastic and high need never seem to get along well.
Ron

Tensioners are only one part of the equation.  Owners should also be looking at the bores of the cam plate for wear and out of round conditions especially with non factory cams and spring packages.  Also look at the thrust face on the cam plate for the front cam.  Looks like H/D using old beer cans for the material, I bel;ieve replacement stock plate less than 75 bucks.  Screamin Eagle plate with bronze bushings may be the answer.

Tsani You beat me to it I've been thinking of opening mine up also. They have 33k+ on them. My original ones in my 04 RK(made in 03) looked allot worse than yours at 22.5k.

I had a shock when I opened up my 07 StreetGlide last year for a cam change. The outer shoe looked pretty bad at 35,000 miles so I replaced it. I probably didn't have to because it was not even worn halfway through but I was in there. At the rate of wear it showed it probably could have gone 75 or 80,000 miles or more. The inner one looked like it was brand new. One thing I noticed was that the inner shoe just popped out of the bore because of the little spring in the bore. The outer one didn't which made me wonder if it had been in a bind and did not float like it should. Don't know for sure.

Well, I will be digging in a  lot further. I stopped at the outter shoe last night. Like I said, it looks worse than it is. Basically just scuffing that the picture doesn't really show well. I was taught that if you can't catch it with your nail, then it is 0.002 or less. I could make a cast of it and measure it that way, but I am not all that worried about it. My engine rarely, if ever sees oil temps higher than 250*f. I am more concerned at how the cam journals in the plate are wearing and that is what I really want to have a look at. And I want to check runout again while I am in there.Lastime I checked, at 50kmi, it was 0.0005 +/- . No issues, noise, etc. Just curious as to how is is all getting along. I would be will to bet that most of that scuffing occured in the initial start up.

I think your shoe looks pretty good to me.  It looks like it will probably go 100K, and if not, it will be a piece of cake to change, especially if you already have adjustable pushrods & Torrington inner bearings.  I know there are always going to be some folks who don't like the idea of chains and tensioners, and you are always going to hear of isolated incidents of premature wear, bore damage with the plain bearing plate, etc.  But remember, this system has been in place for several years now  on hundreds of thousands of big twin engines, and you are just not hearing about wide scale problems.  To me that is real statistical data.  It makes me feel good that I did this conversion.  Thanks for posting the pic.

Quote from: FSG on December 29, 2010, 01:06:59 AM
Can someone measure the thickness of the wear material

I checked a new #39969-06 that I have on the shelf and I come up with .142" to .145"


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3.7 mm= .145 inch just for us  down in Australia, cheers good pic, Barny

Amy, thanks.

I'm wondering if we (!) measure to the bottom of the moulded in metal socket we can calculate how far below the surface the tip of the socket is.  Perhaps there are variations during the manufacturing process, some maybe quite shallow and there are the ones that are wearing down to the metal.

Quote from: FSG on December 29, 2010, 04:16:50 PM
Amy, thanks.

I'm wondering if we (!) measure to the bottom of the moulded in metal socket we can calculate how far below the surface the tip of the socket is.  Perhaps there are variations during the manufacturing process, some maybe quite shallow and there are the ones that are wearing down to the metal.

Especially when they might be assembled incorrectly regarding the spring and plunger.
Plunger goes into the hole first with the narrow step up. Then the spring and the shoe on top of the spring.
This raises the question on the ones I've seen worn to the steel plunger. Where's the spring?
http://www.harley-davidson.com/en_US/Media/downloads/Service/isheets/-J04804.pdf
Ron

FSG:

Ron reminds us of this one:



And the way it came apart:

Yup. That's what I'm talking about.
Ron

Real good point you have made here.  When I got mine, one of the little pins had come out during shipment and one of the  tensioners was in pieces in the bag.  I took the other one apart to see how it went together, and then found the illustration in the document you are referring to.  The spring goes between the piston and the shoe, not inside the piston.  It almost seems natural it would go inside the piston, but it certainly does not.  Wonder how many out there are installed wrong?

Quote from: smoserx1 on December 29, 2010, 05:49:47 PM
Real good point you have made here.  When I got mine, one of the little pins had come out during shipment and one of the  tensioners was in pieces in the bag.  I took the other one apart to see how it went together, and then found the illustration in the document you are referring to.  The spring goes between the piston and the shoe, not inside the piston.  It almost seems natural it would go inside the piston, but it certainly does not.  Wonder how many out there are installed wrong?

I'm thinking with the spring inside it would be a more rigid contact on the chain causing more than normal wear. With the spring on top there's likely some float to the shoe making the contact less harsh. This is only a guess however.  When I got my new ones for the 113 build naturally I took them apart to look at them. I sorta knew the assembly procedure but checked the sm to be sure. Without the sm I would have been wrong in my guess. Just goes to show you that what appears right might not be.
Ron

Quote from: WVULTRA on December 29, 2010, 05:23:49 PM

Ron reminds us of this one:
And the way it came apart:

Yep I remember that one. I've not had one in my hand , but am interested in knowing how far below the surface the moulded in metal portion actually is.

Working on it............

How does the oil get into the tensioner... Does the piston have valve?

At 11K, when I installed cams in my 07 egc, the shoes looked almost new..

Quote from: MaxHeadflow on December 29, 2010, 09:22:30 PM
How does the oil get into the tensioner... Does the piston have valve?

At 11K, when I installed cams in my 07 egc, the shoes looked almost new..

The backside of the metal holder which mates to the cam plate, has an oil channel and hole. Oil is pressure fed from the cam plate into the channel, then thru the holes in to the pston chamber.

Quote from: Tsani on December 29, 2010, 09:42:35 PM

Quote from: MaxHeadflow on December 29, 2010, 09:22:30 PM
How does the oil get into the tensioner... Does the piston have valve?

At 11K, when I installed cams in my 07 egc, the shoes looked almost new..

The backside of the metal holder which mates to the cam plate, has an oil channel and hole. Oil is pressure fed from the cam plate into the channel, then thru the holes in to the pston chamber.

So it enters into the holder at the bottom.. Can't see it in the pics..
Makes sense.. Probably no valve.. Explains why the one with the spring in the wrong place killed the shoe..

Thanks,  Max

Dang it, I just changed mine over a while back and I can't remember which way I installed the spring!  "Potty mouth"e!

Here ya go Max:

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