HarleyTechTalk

We'll after reading everything I could find this weekend I changed up my plans
and called Frank at Drago's today to order my unit.

I really did not want to have to deal with tuners and the computer side even
tho I'm a network manager I really like the plug and play option.

Thanks for sharing the info guys it helped a lot.

Please keep the rest of us posted on how this thing works as summer comes along.  I am REALLY hopeful that THIS could very well be an answer for quite a few builds.

Before I start recommending this as an option for certain folks, I want to see a season on this and get your inputs.

Hey Econnor

Whats up?

I would not expect a warranty for collateral damage. You do not get that with any tuning or EFI system available for the HD do you?

Quote from: Deweysheads on February 22, 2011, 09:53:13 AM
I would not expect a warranty for collateral damage. You do not get that with any tuning or EFI system available for the HD do you?

No, but nothing else is advertise as a complete plug and play like this.  The others sell their device and it is up to the end user to develop a cal. or go somewhere and get one developed.  This gives a buffer to the manufacture.  If I tune a bike and it melts pistons because I did something wrong.  I bet that guy is looking for me to make it right.  This is one of the reason why tuners give very vague answers to "will this work until I can get to a tuner" type question.  Look at the TC section about the Rev-Perf .002 run out thread.  Hasn't contacted RP but has posted his findings on at least 2 forums I am aware of.  I bring it up not because it is RP, but because it is the wrong way to handle it.

Quote from: econnor on February 21, 2011, 07:08:00 PM
If this unit fails and causes and engine to run extremely lean and burns an engine up what are you going to do about it?

IMO with this type of plug and play unit, they should take complete responsibility.

A Dude goes to an HD dealer with his used bike.  The original ECM was defective.  They flash a NEW ecm and he installs it in the bike.  The flash they installed was totally wrong and burned his pistons... who would be on the hook for THAT fix?

I KNOW who should be.  ANd... how would THIS be different?  This is NOT ...say TTS, where I shot a bad tune at my bike and burned my own pistons (which I surely did do).

If the end user installs according to instructions and something bad happens?  It SHOULD be on RP, in MY book.

That being said... how much of a chance of that happening?  I bet slim to none.  Why?  EMS must be really close to an ECM's stock functionality and the 'tune' must be a generic and 'safe' tune.  The WBO2s have me thinking that EMS uses the O2s for tune control... keep the map centered.. and NOT fuel control.  It's like the AFVs are applied withOUT the instantaneous correction of fuel control.  I could surely be wrong... but that IS how I think of it.  I think RP has a half dozen maps they install (why one needs to send back when going bigger) and these are safe solid tunes... just like any worked over base map.  It's an 80% solution.

80% solutions CAN work on a lot of bikes, tho.  Don't miss what you don't know is there.

This is a fair question because our business model is different.  Unlike the other units in the market,  which are good pieces by the way, we set out to fill what we feel is a significant void of customers who just want to ride their motorcycles and, within scope, make modifications as they go and still have a nice running bike.  The beauty of this type system is that it allows the OEM system to do what it was designed to do in the first place.  Just better and more efficiently.  What I mean by this is that all the factory safeguards to prevent the system from “running away” with itself and adapting to a lethal lean setting are still there.  This is just one of the reasons that we took this approach for this product.  There are also strategies in place from our perspective to buffer this even more.  The system has only so much authority to lean itself out before it begins to recognize that the incoming data is inappropriate.  At this time it clips and enters open loop “safe” mode and you will know it.  Generally you will be able to sense something is amiss way before that happens anyway.  The bottom line is that code is code and once entered it remains the same.  If the code is wrong from the beginning it will be wrong in the end.  The burden that we have volunteered to bare is exactly what Wurk alluded to which is to get the cal safe and within appropriate ranges from the onset.  If we install a “wrong” code it will be blaringly evident from the onset and we will accept the responsibility for the mistake and address the damage, if any. 

@Wurk,
I appreciate your input and wish we had gotten a chance to meet at Cincy.  Maybe next year we can meet up and I’ll buy.  BTW, we have a few more than a dozen maps and we do try to get it a little tighter than 80%.

@hrdtail
I guess I don’t really understand the comparison to the guy over on TC with the crankshaft.  To my knowledge he hasn’t even contacted us.   

Thanks,

Brian

Quote from: revperf on February 22, 2011, 01:39:50 PM
@hrdtail
I guess I don’t really understand the comparison to the guy over on TC with the crankshaft.  To my knowledge he hasn’t even contacted us.   

Thanks,

Brian

Wasn't comparing.  Just stating how when things do go wrong people post it all over the net.  So, along with the dealings I have had with you.   I couldn't see how you wouldn't stand behind this type of device.

I like the fact that you are using a stock Delphi, Brian.  I also like that you told US, the members here, basically how this all works.  Sounds like a pretty solid design.  There ARE a lot of safeguards built into that ECM.  Do you recommend to customers they stick with stock plugs and wires?  I would.

Rock and a hard place, sometimes for folks that try to be early adopters, huh?  EConnor HAS a valid point that maybe you need to address, even tho I am satisfied your product is most likely a very safe product for the end user.  Addressing Ed's concerns would go a LONG way to further your customer base for this thing.  If something ever did come up... a quick and proper resolution would work wonders.

It's tough for you, I know better than most, but a SOLID plan that is in your literature could be helpful on your part.  C'Mon Brian, spit it out and state you WOULD cover all costs if a bad thing ever were to happen.  Crap happens once and awhile, even to me!!!  (imagine that).

I 'got' what Jason was saying about that crank.  Not that YOU did something (or maybe you did... .002 run out)... but that the internet is a cruel and merciless thing, and folks post without ever contacting a MFG, tuner, etc, and allowing a shop to FIX crap before posting... which is one of my pet peeves.

IMO, how/why would you write a warranty that covers a blown motor!?!?  It would be open to interpretation as to the root cause of a failure.  Some guys trash the heck out of a bike, over rev it, dump the clutch at a light at 5k RPM, downshift to first at 40 MPH and all kinds of stupid stuff, and the motor gets broke and you want the tuner manufacturer to cover it? 

I'm sure you dont think that, but how do you PROVE the tuner was at fault, when there are endless variables to consider as the root problem.  The biggest problem would be proving the motor problem was directly caused only by the tuner.  Not saying it couldnt be done, but it might be easier finding a needle in a barnyard.

JMO

Dennis

I don't think they can detonate themselves to death, but they can retard timing enough to burn up exhaust vavles.  Now you have a build with 3,000 miles on it, and compression shot craps.  Signs of detonation on the plugs.  I would blame the tune. 

 

problems with a tune are fairly straight forward.  Things like blue wrist pins come to mind.....  Burnt valves (like me)... etc.  An engine that 'exploded' isn't the tune...  Excessive long term heat is...  The 'tell tales' would be right there and couldn't be faked by someone wanting a new engine.

These ARE issues that Brian has fairly covered, Dennis, by his design.  But... crap DOES happen.  Employee having a 'bad' day, etc.  If RP ever had to 'cover' one engine would surprise me, but since it IS RP?  Brian's statements would go a long way towards a bad taste in a LOT of folks mouths.

One statement Brian made HAS to be true...  if for whatever reason the wrong map was loaded in a EMS unit and it shipped?  It SHOULD be obvious right away.

As to the WHY he needs to do this?  It IS a plug and play that has everybody locked out.  Since the end user IS locked out... it is purely Brian's code that would be at fault.   I am just trying to make Brian see how folks are viewing this, and do NOT think RP would ever be on the hook, but allowing themselves to BE on the hook... if ever needed, would go a LONG ways....

Dennis, you HAVE one of these, so it is natural for YOU to defend the product... because YOU bought it.  I get that.  But... if May comes around and you find you need a total new top end because of excessive heat destroyed the pistons, etc... what then?

Quote from: wurk_truk on February 22, 2011, 06:25:14 PM


problems with a tune are fairly straight forward.  Things like blue wrist pins come to mind.....  Burnt valves (like me)... etc.  An engine that 'exploded' isn't the tune...

There's more than one potential cause for blue wrist pins....agree?

Seems like it would be tough to pin down an "absolute" root cause.....

Is this unit available for a 2011 Softail Conv? Don't see it listed on website, maybe it's not updated, want to use it with a CR575 cam and Boarzilla exhaust.
Mike

Quote from: Sc00ter on February 22, 2011, 06:28:20 PM

Quote from: wurk_truk on February 22, 2011, 06:25:14 PM


problems with a tune are fairly straight forward.  Things like blue wrist pins come to mind.....  Burnt valves (like me)... etc.  An engine that 'exploded' isn't the tune...

There's more than one potential cause for blue wrist pins....agree?

Seems like it would be tough to pin down an "absolute" root cause.....

Yes, that's true, but one could take a look at the total picture?  As I have said...  with how these are built.. I seriously doubt a problem.  These are aimed at Stage1 and 2 DIY builds for the most part, and for those applications SHOULD (we will see) work really quite well (and I WILL get face slapped by 'the crew' for saying that).  a 120r Hurricane head engine... maybe not so well.  See?

But... ultimately, I want to see RP's reputation increase and THIS would help.  I feel that Brian can be a real positive for us members.  He has knowledge that most do NOT.  I do NOT want him to come on here and get beat to death...  over and over... but it's kinda of a sideways thing and his 'manning up' on the EMS would go a LONG ways.....

I've taken this thread sideways long enough.  I apologize.  EConnor is my friend.  If HE has issues, so will a LOT of folks.I have MY answer on how these are put together.

I said early on these are tailor made for tune illiterates like myself  and who do not have a tuner with in a 1000 miles one way.  But wthout some kind of reassurance other then the old "it will be fine on your bike" I can not risk it on a new bike.  I can not see how Rev Perf could be held responsible if push came to shove as a court is going to say you should not have been messing with it in the first place.  My guess with more and more of these type of tuners ie rev perf, Power Vision, and super chips the moco is going to be really checking the ecm finger prints for signs of reflashes.

Quote from: wurk_truk on February 22, 2011, 06:55:36 PM

Quote from: Sc00ter on February 22, 2011, 06:28:20 PM

Quote from: wurk_truk on February 22, 2011, 06:25:14 PM


problems with a tune are fairly straight forward.  Things like blue wrist pins come to mind.....  Burnt valves (like me)... etc.  An engine that 'exploded' isn't the tune...

There's more than one potential cause for blue wrist pins....agree?

Seems like it would be tough to pin down an "absolute" root cause.....

Yes, that's true, but one could take a look at the total picture?  As I have said...  with how these are built.. I seriously doubt a problem.  These are aimed at Stage1 and 2 DIY builds for the most part, and for those applications SHOULD (we will see) work really quite well (and I WILL get face slapped by 'the crew' for saying that).  a 120r Hurricane head engine... maybe not so well.  See?

But... ultimately, I want to see RP's reputation increase and THIS would help.  I feel that Brian can be a real positive for us members.  He has knowledge that most do NOT.  I do NOT want him to come on here and get beat to death...   over and over... but it's kinda of a sideways thing and his 'manning up' on the EMS would go a LONG ways.....

I've taken this thread sideways long enough.  I apologize.  EConnor is my friend.  If HE has issues, so will a LOT of folks.I have MY answer on how these are put together.

  I agree....

For the record, I sold my bike last November, with about 500 miles on the EMS, with no issues.  I have no relationship with RevPerf or Brian other than to talk to Brian and his engineers about the product before commiting to installiing it on my bike.

I can only talk to my experience with the product in the short time I ran it.  It performed flawlessly for me.  So, I recommend it based on my (agreed, limited) experience.

If you are worried that this product will cause problems for your motor, then I suggest it may not be the right product for you.  To hypothesize that it may cause problems for your motor suggests that you will not be happy with this product.  I such a case, I recommend you look at a TTS and/or SEPST and get your bike tuned by a competent tuner.

nuff said.

Dennis

After reading the 6 pages above, I only have two questions. Does it decel pop, and if it does how does one fix that?   Thanks Doc   PS  I am liking this plug and play type tuner.

I have a question for Don (Deweysheads) or Dennis the Menace because I know you guy's have installed this unit. I have a unit that needs to be "free air calibrated" .  The instructions say to adjust the control box so that the light turns from flashing quickly to steady on. So I assume you leave it to where the light is just at the point of being on.
On the Revolution Performance Podcast Brian says and shows the light to be adjusted from being steady on to just beginnig to flicker, and that's where you leave it, so that it is flickering. Which way did you guy's do your's, or anybody else that has installed one ?
                                          Brian

I have one that you have to calibrate, as well. It is the same procedure as for a tsII. After the sensors are warmed up, just set it as close to the transition point from solid to rapid (faint) flickering as you can. The amount of travel on the adjuster screw is very small incrementally at that point, and you really don't have to worry too much, as I believe you would have to turn the adjuster screw a full turn to affect your afr by 1. In other words, the difference between either solid or faint rapid flicker of the light might be .01:1 difference for your calibration.
This is my understanding of it, sorry for interjecting

Cody,

Oldguy is exactly right.  When you initially fire up the box they will blink slowly and then go solid.  After that turn them until they just flicker and you are good to go.  If you have any other questions or you would like me or one of my staff to walk you through it this morning please don't hesitate to call. 

Brian

I haven't figured out what stage my 117" is but I can tell you it is a radical departure from stock. The unit went on and worked as advertised, much to my amazement. I have since sold them and the guys are raving. I really would be more worried about a botched custom tune then one of these units causing motor damage. I do understand the virtues and cons of both very realistically. In either case warranty is in the owners hands, technically.

Thanks for the response Oldguy, Brian and Don.
Brian, when I got to work this morning I couln't remember my HTT password, so I could not check for any responses here so I called your shop. Talked to Andrew, asked him this question and a few more. He was very patient with me, made sure I understood his answers and said not to hesitate to call back if I had any other questions. He is a great guy to talk to. Thanks.
                                                                                      Brian

QuoteThe beauty of this type system is that it allows the OEM system to do what it was designed to do in the first place.  Just better and more efficiently.  What I mean by this is that all the factory safeguards to prevent the system from “running away” with itself and adapting to a lethal lean setting are still there.  This is just one of the reasons that we took this approach for this product.  There are also strategies in place from our perspective to buffer this even more.  The system has only so much authority to lean itself out before it begins to recognize that the incoming data is inappropriate.  At this time it clips and enters open loop “safe” mode and you will know it. 

if you could elaborate on this some. I understand if you cant for obvious reasons.
I have seen the stock ECM, closed loop system drive it's self lean. So the question is what makes your system diff when operating in closed loop?
again I understand if you cant or wont, give a complex answer. just wondering.
if you have devised a system to overcome this,it will be a hit.