HarleyTechTalk

PMed ya,,

Thanks for the link explains the difference between the -93 and the -03.. I remember the roll pin on my FXR block but have not had the brackets off the 02 RoadKing.. Wider dowel is better...

Max

Add.. Thanks Bob also.. This helps.

Hey, is that "locator key" a Progressive or an OEM part?
Bob

I would suspect that it's Progressive's part just so that the right side matches the left (OEM).. Max..

Quote from: MaxHeadflow on March 04, 2011, 07:49:30 AM
I would suspect that it's Progressive's part just so that the right side matches the left (OEM).. Max..

Gotcha. Bet you're right.
Bob

Any updates on this mod?  Did this fix the handling issue?

Pic of stock isolater, Glide-Pro, stock with Sta-Bo.  Does anyone have an old stock one they could cut in half to check construction material.
Stock has a metal plate of both sides, top ridges are metal with rubber coating, but centers may be solid rubber.

My Sta-Bo is made out of Delrin and is very hard.  Sta-Bo replaced the Delrin with urethane.
http://www.sta-bo.com/id2.html

Rivera Primo offers a "Stiffey" similar design as Sta-Bo, but made out of aluminum.
http://www.americanbagger.com/pdf/stiffey.pdf

Glide-Pro Install
http://www.baggersmag.com/tech/1004_hrbp_glide_pro_stabilizing_system/index.html



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Sta-Bo installed - shows exposed stock isolator
Courtesy of http://www.doofclenas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=144649

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  In this case a "Stiffey" might help to lessen the swagger.  How much does the "Stiffey" increase vibration?   Rick

QuotePic of stock isolater, Glide-Pro, stock with Sta-Bo.  Does anyone have an old stock one they could cut in half to check construction material. Stock has a metal plate of both sides, top ridges are metal with rubber coating, but centers may be solid rubber.

Looks closer... They have a hole in the center.. 

Seriously how far in the metal ring goes or it may even have a pattern off holes and slots to keep the rubber in place to reduce the chance of complete separation..

I also took pics of the glide pro and the new donuts look to be a dual compound polyurethane.. Probably cast to pored at 2 times..  You can get that stuff pretty consistent if you have a vacuum chamber to pull the bubbles out.. IIRC working with that stuff is pretty dangerous.. (don't care what anyone says)

Good quick reference.. Polyurethane
http://www.mcmaster.com/#polyurethane/=bb2j74

QuoteMy Sta-Bo is made out of Delrin and is very hard.  Sta-Bo replaced the Delrin with urethane.

Yep I suspect that the acetal one acted more as bushings and let the bushing slip on the inner donut plate.. The later polyurethnae one would flex a little more an act as a filler that didn't compress.

Good quick reference.. Acetal
http://www.mcmaster.com/#plastics/=bb2p3y

Max

This thread contains swing arm disassembly tutorial with excellent pictures on a 2007 CVO Ultra Classic FLHTCUSE
While reading information regarding vibration, Sta-Bo has changed their composite material from hard Delrin to a softer urethane compound to address increased vibration.

http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=20764.0

Thanks for the link..It shows how the stack up errors can accumulate..


Looks like they used the same donut up to 08

07 FLHTC---
47564-86B    HarleyDavidson
MOUNT, SWINGARM          $ 33.99    $ 33.99


09 FLHTC ---
47584-09    HarleyDavidson
RUBBER MOUNT,SWINGAR          $ 33.99    $ 67.98


BTW,
Went to a swap meet to unload a bunch of junk. I had a brand new  FXR / Early Bagger (up to 01?) swing arm rebuild kit that I was trying to dump.. Includes the swing are pivot and all the spacer / bushing / cups etc.. Some guy picks it up and asks about it.. Start talking to him and he's got an 09 that guess what? Handles like a drunken camel in a sand storm.. Since new. Tried 3 different tires so far. Had it to the dealer a few time for the issue.. Even tried the glide pro..  I tried to talk into checking the play but it was probably a little to hard to describe correctly for him to get he concept.. It got busy and he wandered off..

So I guess the new frames aren't immune to the issue.. Increasing trail only slows the oscillation down.. They sure as heck ain't any stiffer.

Max

Max,
Have you checked the vertical alignment on your wheels, its more important than horizontal alignment on fixing the high speed wobble.
Charlie

Quote from: fatboy on March 08, 2011, 01:56:25 PM
Max,
Have you checked the vertical alignment on your wheels, its more important than horizontal alignment on fixing the high speed wobble.
Charlie

Off record from MOCO platform manager 2003:
"We know there are some variances in the steering neck perpendicularity to the swingarm pivot." (old, worn frame jigs)

If that is true then the front and rear wheels move in different planes as they move up and down which, for sure, would cause high speed weave/wobble/instability.

Bob

Quote from: FLTRI on March 08, 2011, 02:24:49 PM

Quote from: fatboy on March 08, 2011, 01:56:25 PM
Max,
Have you checked the vertical alignment on your wheels, its more important than horizontal alignment on fixing the high speed wobble.
Charlie

Off record from MOCO platform manager 2003:
"We know there are some variances in the steering neck perpendicularity to the swingarm pivot." (old, worn frame jigs)

If that is true then the front and rear wheels move in different planes as they move up and down which, for sure, would cause high speed weave/wobble/instability.

Bob

You can shim the rear axle, alot of slop in the slot on the swingarm. Shim top or bottom of axle on one side or to get more, shim top one side bottom other side. Easy to get 1 deg this way(1/32"top-1/32"bot.), most are out only 1/2 deg.
Charlie 

Quote from: fatboy on March 08, 2011, 01:56:25 PM
Max,
Have you checked the vertical alignment on your wheels, its more important than horizontal alignment on fixing the high speed wobble.
Charlie

I've checked it a few ways.. In reference the the swing arm blocks.. The drive train sits perfectly in the frame.. You can loosen the front an top mounts and an with the glide pro bushings, the links line right up.. I was planning on comparing the vertical alignment of the wheels by using the rotors as a reference and a precision level  but have not done that yet.. Plan on doing it before replacing the tire.  If its off why mess with the rear axle? Why not adjust the top mount?

Eye ball the rear tire looks to be centered in the rear fender, but I'm not planning on removing the rear fender and using a string to see how it lines up with the frame..

The bike balances well. Ass square in the seat, flat ground, let go of the bars and the bike tracks nice and straight.

Any suggestions on other things to check..

Max

May have been covered already (too lazy to re-read the whole thread), stabizier links worn? On my old bagger after replacing all the usual suspects, those were the last...viola. Also could have been a combination of replacing multiple parts. Some times hard to point to one component.

edit: spelling

The suckers are like brand new.. Nice and tight.  This bike only has 14K on on it..  All link fasteners have been checked and rechecked.. Right now the top one is off cus I'm messin' with the throttle body.. Max

Quote from: MaxHeadflow on March 08, 2011, 03:46:13 PM
Any suggestions on other things to check..
Max

When you go to check the front-to-rear rotors (vertical) start with the frt/rr suspension in bump/compression (tie down the front and  rear). Check and square everything up then release the compression and lift the bike to droop/rebound and see if the relationship between the 2 rotors change.

Bob
PS- Be sure to closely monitor and correct the frame to level with each measurement.

Gotcha. Interesting test. Would you expect it to change? I was expecting to set the top link first but am not sure it needs it right now..

Max

Max have we talked about the wind lifting the bike up at high speeds because of the fairing dynamics and causing it be unstable. I put the klock works windshield that pushes the bike down and found it to make my bike much more stable at high speeds. You have been busy since I last checked in, 6366 posts. Have you got to number 1 yet.

QuoteStart talking to him and he's got an 09 that guess what? Handles like a drunken camel in a sand storm.. Since new.

My 09 over 100 mphor pushing hard in clover leaf off the interstate, has the same characteristics. Can scare the "Potty mouth" out of you.  Mine is an early 09 (Aug 08), was told it is most likely the neck torque. Bought the Snap-on tool, just haven't had the ambition to tear into it.  First time it happened, I thought: Fixed frame my @ss.  Now I know what to expect.

Tre'

Max
You need to bite the bullet and buy a stabilizer brace ? Believe it or not they do brace the rear swingarm and tighten that tail wagging wobble these baggers suffer from. My 07 is not perfect but I have no problems going through some very rough 70 KPH sweepers two up at 140 kph plus. The bike will give a slight wobble but nothing like the old out of control feeling it had when new with no brace. I have string lined my bike both vertical and horizontal  and have fitted Progressive heavy fork springs , 416 air shocks and there stabilizer brace and trust me the stabilizers do work as advertised.     

Quote from: GoFast..... on March 08, 2011, 09:22:40 PM
Max have we talked about the wind lifting the bike up at high speeds because of the fairing dynamics and causing it be unstable. I put the klock works windshield that pushes the bike down and found it to make my bike much more stable at high speeds. You have been busy since I last checked in, 6366 posts. Have you got to number 1 yet.

Thanks Gofast
I put this down to weak fork triple tree's but after reading your thread I might consider checking out the klock works screen.

Looks like a stouter tree

Quote from: hogbag on March 09, 2011, 12:11:49 AM
trust me the stabilizers.     

I've run the stabilizer on a Dyna and FXR an in both cases they didn't make much difference.. The FXR really didn't need it but the Dyna wobbled before and after.. Frequency of the wobble did change .. The biggest difference on the Dyna was 2 things. 1 new tires always made it better. 2. Changing wheels and tire profiles made a drastic difference...  Now it only gets a little twitchy when the tires are worn..I've seen stuffer wheels make a drastic difference 35 years ago.. Did for the Dyna..  I may try the stabilizer but need to validate that the glide-pro is not the answer first.. and probably the tire. This bike got way better when I added the shim but has always felt light at 90.. Shimming does the same thing as the brace.. Controls rear end swagger. On disassembly to install the glide pro I notice that the fork brackets had chewed deeper into the donut..Might be coming loose again.. Late end caps are crud.. I'm sure that there is more than one issue cause the handling problem.

I may try gofasts wind screen solution later but IMO it is not what is causing the current handling issue. I've got the new E3.. I understand where you say they were squirrely for the first 1000 kilometers.. Tread is pretty thick in the middle.. This bike already has springs and shocks.. I will admit that going from the heavy progressive 440s to lighter ones did make a handling a bit worse but I think giving up ride quality for the improvement on sweeper wobbles is not a justified. Bike hands much better at lower speeds.. 30-65 MPH on irregular surfaces, where 90% of my riding is..   

While the lower pinch bolts are tight.. Another common problem is for the fork caps to come loose. That may be the problem here but it requires disassembling the front end to check.. The forks have been into once to change the springs and lowers so there may be an issue there..  Right now I've been messing with the throttle body, air cleaners and exhaust so it's been sitting on the rack..

Mean time my 02 road toad handles great.. but it's got a set of Street glide wheels on it.. Micheline tires. It swaggered when the only difference was tires... A Brazilian Metzler on the back and it handled like crap.

Max