HarleyTechTalk

Haven't installed it yet but unreal turn around time, sent out Monday am, at my door 930 this am! Real nice job modifying the Softail ECM caddy. Sent a second one out today, will start the first install this week and will report on that.
Mike

No posts since March 2nd. .......BUMP.

Have about 300 miles on mine now, bike has never ran as well,(never pro tuned on a dyno but several hours and miles with TSII, which can be dangerous on street trust me) depending on condition, occasionally get a pop on decel, bike fires up great hot or cold, idles evenly, probably the biggest improvement is low rpm throttle response and the hiccup I couldn't get rid of at low rpm low load at mid 2k rpm.

Thanks for the update.  I installed one a few weeks ago and between work and rain/flood have not gotten to ride it yet.  I'm checking about 5 different boards reading everything I can and hoping for the same positive results! (This coming Saturday is looking good for a test run of a 100 or so miles......fingers crossed!)

Would like to see comparison runs that depict an EMS tune and a TTS tune done done by a pro. Similar to the one Stroker put up recently. I am skeptical about the ability of the EMS thing to magically auto tune better than anything else. Unlike RP, Zippers has a much more solid reputation and their Thundermax w/Autotune is far from optimal. Aside from a lower price, I fail to see any advantage with the EMS unit compared to other units on the market. Am I missing something here?

Cannot do this.  One can NOT adjust nor tune an EMS.   Putting on a dyno is ALL one can do.  So, for that we would need the same bike and two Delphis... one an EMS and the other gets tuned on the dyno.

I don't think it would be a fair contest anyway.  I think a good tuner that knows what they're doing should be able to trump any "auto-tune" device on the market today, especially if that tuner has a way of measuring engine output (dyno).  The reason I feel this way is the "auto-tunes" only adjust one side of the tuning equation (fuel) and leave the other (timing) a constant regardless. 

Quote from: wurk_truk on August 20, 2011, 09:47:58 PM
Cannot do this.  One can NOT adjust nor tune an EMS.   Putting on a dyno is ALL one can do.  So, for that we would need the same bike and two Delphis... one an EMS and the other gets tuned on the dyno.

Thats what I meant. Let the EMS do whatever it does, run it, record the results, then change the Delphi unit and tune it with TTS. My guess is that everyone that knows the capabilities of each tuning device knows the TTS will outperform the EMS. The question is how much is the difference between the two tunes.

I think one reason the EMS gets so many rave reviews from satisfied customers is because there are so many marginal/lousy tuners out there.

I have no doubt that the TTS or similar tuning device, in the hands of a competent tuner, will provide a superior result than any of the auto tune devices.  It would be no contest.

The bottom line  - and a marketing rationale - behind the auto tuning devices is the lack of really capable tuners in many parts of the country...

Quote from: Sc00ter on August 21, 2011, 06:01:05 AM
I think one reason the EMS gets so many rave reviews from satisfied customers is because there are so many marginal/lousy tuners out there.

I have no doubt that the TTS or similar tuning device, in the hands of a competent tuner, will provide a superior result than any of the auto tune devices.  It would be no contest.

The bottom line  - and a marketing rationale - behind the auto tuning devices is the lack of really capable tuners in many parts of the country...

This is one of the most accurate statements I've read here . I've yet to find a capable tuner in Southern Ontario, let alone one that works with TTS.
Dealer tunes and auto tuners or PC lead the pack and from what I see always will.
Ron

No question a custom tune using SERT or TTS would be the way to go if you are fortunate enough to have a true pro tune your build, and you did your build components one time, but for the majority riding our HD's on the street, the EMS is a great
alternative IMO

QuoteLet the EMS do whatever it does, run it, record the results

it would be interesting to just see this.
I don't think there is any doubt a good dyno tune with other devices will net a better WOT run.
I haven't seen any dyno sheets from a EMS.
come on guys throw them on the dyno for just 5-6 pulls . and post them up.
back to sniffing the EMS.....surely someone has done this also
gear-head enough  to build these nice motors and not run them through a shop for a few pulls and maybe sample a few areas? some of you are on your 2nd 3rd tuning device. you know you want to know?

Seems to me that the majority of people singing the praise of the EMS are content to accept to mediocrity. JMHO.

Quote from: turboprop on August 21, 2011, 08:53:55 AM
Seems to me that the majority of people singing the praise of the EMS are content to accept to mediocrity. JMHO.

Could be, but without a dyno, additional afr equipment and a vast amount of tuning knowledge that's what you get with any of them. Vtuning a high output engine on the road sure as hell won't get you there. It can get you close but plenty of room for improvement.
Ron

Quote from: rbabos on August 21, 2011, 09:02:29 AM

Quote from: turboprop on August 21, 2011, 08:53:55 AM
...Vtuning a high output engine on the road sure as hell won't get you there.
Ron

Is this based on experience v-tuning high output engines or is this something you heard?

Steve's pal installed a HD120 and successfully v-tuned it on the street and gets 40+mpg without any negatives.

A bit of common sense goes a long way choosing calibrations and using v-tune.
IE: if the engine backfires/spits through the intake and falls on its face just trying to get it off the line...that calibration is probably not the one to use.

Bob

Quote from: turboprop on August 21, 2011, 08:53:55 AM
Seems to me that the majority of people singing the praise of the EMS are content to accept to mediocrity. JMHO.

Everyone seems to be of the opinion that whatever they do is what everyone else should do also, but that statement of mediocrity is pretty broad statement IMO,but again if you don't have a proficient tuner nearby, is half a tune with a TTS or SERT mediocrity also?

Just am finishing a touring trip in Canada. 1k miles on the 117. Averaged 38mpg and hit 42 when not loaded and just 2 up. No major issues, but one small annoyance. I will be sending it in for a tweak. I am happy NOT to know or give a crap about the AFR, AFV and all the other acronyms nor do I care about a few hp lost or gained (I have ~100tq at 3% THROTTLE at 2k rpm in third gear measured on  dyno), I have plenty , I am riding to enjoy and that is happening. Motor and we are safe.
Could a tuner do better custom tune, yes some of them and many more not and even more owner tunes not.
I don't think it is fair to compare a good pro tune to the EMS product.

 

Quote from: Deweysheads on August 21, 2011, 09:43:10 AM
Just am finishing a touring trip in Canada. 1k miles on the 117. Averaged 38mpg and hit 42 when not loaded and just 2 up. No major issues, but one small annoyance. I will be sending it in for a tweak. I am happy NOT to know or give a crap about the AFR, AFV and all the other acronyms nor do I care about a few hp lost or gained (I have ~100tq at 3% THROTTLE at 2k rpm in third gear measured on  dyno), I have plenty , I am riding to enjoy and that is happening. Motor and we are safe.
Could a tuner do better custom tune, yes some of them and many more not and even more owner tunes not.
I don't think it is fair to compare a good pro tune to the EMS product.

Quote from: Deweysheads on August 21, 2011, 09:43:10 AM
Just am finishing a touring trip in Canada. 1k miles on the 117. Averaged 38mpg and hit 42 when not loaded and just 2 up. No major issues, but one small annoyance. I will be sending it in for a tweak. I am happy NOT to know or give a crap about the AFR, AFV and all the other acronyms nor do I care about a few hp lost or gained (I have ~100tq at 3% THROTTLE at 2k rpm in third gear measured on  dyno), I have plenty , I am riding to enjoy and that is happening. Motor and we are safe.
Could a tuner do better custom tune, yes some of them and many more not and even more owner tunes not.
I don't think it is fair to compare a good pro tune to the EMS product.

That is how I feel as well.....
Curious as to what your one "small annoyance" is.

So what's the difference between a "good acceptable" tune and a "great" tune?  (especally since none of the tools available make adjustments to ignition timing)

And it looks like we're getting back to comparing MPG as it relates to tune effectiveness, a favorite subject of mine.  Once the motor is off the dyno, isn't that all we have available for comparison or satisfaction that our motors are tuned well?   Comparing WOT dynographs only illustrate one condition . . . .MAP=100, and I don't believe any tuning tool addresses this regime.

Ken

My small annoynance doesn't need to be published here, wish I could but the reality is there are factions that want to see the EMS fail and see these sort of things as a bloody fish in shark infested waters. No thanks, REV are good folks and they will take care of it. I will publish after the fix

Quote from: Ken R on August 21, 2011, 12:28:16 PM
So what's the difference between a "good acceptable" tune and a "great" tune?  (especally since none of the tools available make adjustments to ignition timing)

And it looks like we're getting back to comparing MPG as it relates to tune effectiveness, a favorite subject of mine.  Once the motor is off the dyno, isn't that all we have available for comparison or satisfaction that our motors are tuned well?   Comparing WOT dynographs only illustrate one condition . . . .MAP=100, and I don't believe any tuning tool addresses this regime.

Ken

Any system that uses O2 sensors is subject to the same good and bad points. Doesn't matter if it's Broad Band, Switching or Real Wide bands. If they are not tested, installed properly and used per the OEM manufactures specifications the results are not going to be good. The exhaust systems out there today leave a lot to be desired when it comes to proper placement of the sensors let alone any testing to make sure they perform properly. When it comes to the timing side of things the setup is as good as the tuner that put the values in place. Some ECM's are capable of removing timing and learning that information and others are not. So what it boils down to is no different in the long run and that is how good does the tune that was placed in the ECM by "XYZ" company matches what you have. The better the match the better your bike is going to run. NO system is capable of adjusting itself into good running unless the base tune installed into the ECM is close to start with, just the way it is.

I see a couple of real good pluses with the EMS.  I see a few glaring minuses with the EMS.  I'm of the opinion that some of those minuses are possibly the installers fault to a decent degree.  Try as I might to think otherwise, I feel that EMS is a decent choice for a whole bunch of folks.  Depends what one is after.  I give Don props for putting one on a 117.

A pro tune would win hands down, IMHO.  That would be a GOOD pro tune, though.  A GOOD DIYer tune would also win, but then it becomes what one likes to fiddle with.  Taking us here on HTT out of the picture and just thinking of the average dude?..... how many, does anyone believe, really, tunes a home brew like say Mayor?  Or me even?  EMS HAS a spot in all of this tuning crap.  Just depends on the owner saying what build he exactly has, and the 'hope' is Brian has a decent map for that combo.   Just like base cals, Brian cannot cover every combo folks can dream up, not do I expect him to.

I agree with Steve Cole on O2 placement and depth one million percent!. I feel that if a system is using O2s or is even just using O2s IN A BUNG HOLEO WHILE TUNING with an AFR tuner.....  the placement and depth is critical for best results.

After a bunch of reading on the subject of O2s.  How they operate in an exhaust stream, asking both Steve and FBRR dumb and decent questions...  I am CONVINCED that truly most folks do NOT check the O2 placement and depth when buying and installing new pipes and ANY tuning device.  Some of us here do... sure.  Go to HDF, and those guys talk a good game but few really do this.  Go to CVO, same thing.

The further away from totally stock the engine AND exhaust is... the more critical this is.  TTS and SEPST users have to deal with AFVs whacking a tune, right?  Well, I'm sure EMS has the same issues... and any tuner can suffer from bad O2 syndrome.

Making sure one has the best O2 placement as possible has been shown time and again how important this is.  Timtoolman is the most recent member to show this... he was going to throw away whatever pipes he had, but... on a whim... checked the O2s.  Guess what?  Crap placement from the MFG.  Shrouded sensor (mfg uses a punch instead of a drill for the initial holes in the pipe), sensor not deep enough, sensor hole not matching the bung hole dia.   Sam-ole-same-ole

Read the entire post and it sounds like the RP ems is a great plug n play. I have had bikes dyno tuned and have had them come back running very rich and had to dial in the cruise circuts on the carbs myself. If you don't have access to a good tuner the EMS unit looks like a winner to me. 

If it works, it did not for us.