HarleyTechTalk

Hi all...
Which model is s&s' most reliable engine regardles of size..... Something with stock like reliability...... Was eyeing an 113 before but heard a lot of problem with comp release...

That 113" is just a larger evo. The super sidewinder engines have the real improvements. You might consider a TC style engine with evo mounts.

Quote from: uwiik on September 11, 2011, 07:28:28 PM
Hi all...
Which model is s&s' most reliable engine regardles of size..... Something with stock like reliability...... Was eyeing an 113 before but heard a lot of problem with comp release...

I have one of those in a touring bike, never had any problems with either the motor or the CR's. Running the IST ignition. very reliable bike.
Have about 60K miles on this one.

Quote from: turboprop on September 11, 2011, 07:42:52 PM
That 113" is just a larger evo. The super sidewinder engines have the real improvements. You might consider a TC style engine with evo mounts.

you mean fatso motor? I considered that, but since ita going to be another headache with pushrod geometry, i buried the idea....if you recognize my other post, i actually am in the process of rebuilding my engine for reliable performance with 100% bolt on parts.. i asked about ss because i was thinking it will be less headache buying crate motor and I USED to think that s&s is very reliable, but after thorough research, i realized that s&s have the same amount of problems and complains as any other much cheaper brand such as revtech or ultima...ultima being the one with least problem report, but ultima just look plain fugly...

Judging from so many negative reports about s&s bigger motor issues with hard starting among many other problems with leak, motor completely blowing, destroyed piston and whatnot, i begin to ditch s&s route out the window.. well unless they start making motor as reliable as a moco motor...doesnt matter if they have best warranty, i dont live in US, getting warranty work for s&s is out of question.

I ride since 1999, owned few tc in between but cannot forget evo sound and stock reliability, but i also missed my 95" tc power.... want something to ride with ease but still having tc beating performance...

Quote from: HOGMIKE on September 11, 2011, 08:42:23 PM

Quote from: uwiik on September 11, 2011, 07:28:28 PM
Hi all...
Which model is s&s' most reliable engine regardles of size..... Something with stock like reliability...... Was eyeing an 113 before but heard a lot of problem with comp release...

I have one of those in a touring bike, never had any problems with either the motor or the CR's. Running the IST ignition. very reliable bike.
Have about 60K miles on this one.

Heard this many times, i guess you are really lucky or you have genius indy near you or you yourself is a genius greasehead..... If you google 's&s problem' and ' s&s reliable' the former always generated much more result....

Did you do any particular mods, treatment or maintenance to keep your 113 reliable? Please share....i haven't completely thrown the s&s idea out the window, if i can be certain that my engine will give me my value, i might reconsider.....

Thank you

Do they still make 107 engine? Heard its the most reliable.... Super sidewinder is replaced by v series in new s&s catalog, but they werent so clear on description.. i think 107 only fit touring chasis? That true?

Thank you all for being so helpful, please keep em coming....

Quote from: uwiik on September 12, 2011, 02:02:01 AM

Quote from: turboprop on September 11, 2011, 07:42:52 PM
That 113" is just a larger evo. The super sidewinder engines have the real improvements. You might consider a TC style engine with evo mounts.

you mean fatso motor?

Absolutely not. S&S also makes their twincam Super Side Winder Engines for evo frames. These are complete TC engines that use a special case that has Evo frame mounts.

S&S makes them in a range of displacements, intake sytems and ignitions. Here is a link to a TC 124 with evo mounts, Super G and IST ignition,

http://www.sscycle.com/product/Evolution-Big-Twin/Engines/T124V-Complete-Assembled-Engine-p21057.html

The S&S motors are reliable.
We have a 113 running 9.70's & have never been in the bottom end.
The 111 [on sale this month] is a nice motor.

Quote from: turboprop on September 12, 2011, 04:28:08 AM

Quote from: uwiik on September 12, 2011, 02:02:01 AM

Quote from: turboprop on September 11, 2011, 07:42:52 PM
That 113" is just a larger evo. The super sidewinder engines have the real improvements. You might consider a TC style engine with evo mounts.

you mean fatso motor?

Absolutely not. S&S also makes their twincam Super Side Winder Engines for evo frames. These are complete TC engines that use a special case that has Evo frame mounts.

S&S makes them in a range of displacements, intake sytems and ignitions. Here is a link to a TC 124 with evo mounts, Super G and IST ignition,

http://www.sscycle.com/product/Evolution-Big-Twin/Engines/T124V-Complete-Assembled-Engine-p21057.html

THAT IS BRUTAL!!!! LOL!! But it's gonna be an overkill for what i am looking for......  I only want to smack buddies with 95" twinkie, and i definitely wont mess with monster motor where i live....i even considered 96" s&s thinking the smaller the more reliable, but was told it vibrate like a jackhammer....is it true?

Bottom line is i need somthing to beat medium cammed 95" twinkie because thats all they are able to build properly here... When i beat them i am good already...LOL.....And while still being stock like reliable.....Not that i am cheap but i am halfway accross the world, no warranty work and absolutely no competent indy that knows aftermarket engine...

Quote from: wfolarry on September 12, 2011, 04:59:15 AM
The S&S motors are reliable.
We have a 113 running 9.70's & have never been in the bottom end.
The 111 [on sale this month] is a nice motor.

The more i browse or ask the more confused i become........i trust this forum the most for engine tech.... In your opinion (YES..all of you).... Which One will be less likely to have issue and vibrate less... S&S or Ultima (both 113)... Money is no object, not rich, but i still have my healthy current engine, no problem except for power....so i am not in a hurry, plenty of time to save....

I saw that v111... Looks promising...do you think it will be more reliable than 113, being smaller and all... Lots of my ride will be city traffic....like seriously stuck traffic on 80-90 degree...

Finally super stock or IST ignition?? Also heard IST vibrate more and not too reliable...

Thanks for the patiemce to answer all my questions.... Much appreciated...Cheers....

I have 6,000 on my 113 in a rubber mount frame.No problems.It is not the new sidewinder.What is  the difference between the sidewinder and the other motors that are the same size?

Quote from: uwiik on September 12, 2011, 05:52:22 AM

Quote from: wfolarry on September 12, 2011, 04:59:15 AM
The S&S motors are reliable.
We have a 113 running 9.70's & have never been in the bottom end.
The 111 [on sale this month] is a nice motor.

The more i browse or ask the more confused i become........i trust this forum the most for engine tech.... In your opinion (YES..all of you).... Which One will be less likely to have issue and vibrate less... S&S or Ultima (both 113)... Money is no object, not rich, but i still have my healthy current engine, no problem except for power....so i am not in a hurry, plenty of time to save....

I saw that v111... Looks promising...do you think it will be more reliable than 113, being smaller and all... Lots of my ride will be city traffic....like seriously stuck traffic on 80-90 degree...

Finally super stock or IST ignition?? Also heard IST vibrate more and not too reliable...

Thanks for the patiemce to answer all my questions.... Much appreciated...Cheers....

Never heard about that, all I know is we have a few running around here for the past 4-5 years with no issues. One had excessive piston to wall clearance, but, S&S took care of that for us.

I've been running an S&S 113 for over 7 years now. Had one compression release fail the first year. But S&S sent me 2 new replacements and the special socket to change them at no cost to me. I think there was problem with the early CRs, and that's why they sent me 2 new ones when only one of them failed. That was 6-7 years ago, and haven't had any problems since then. The motor continues to run strong, and wouldn't hesitate to buy another. And yes, it is fun spanking them twinkies whenever "we" get the urge. I say "we" because it's the wife, who is a permanent fixture on the back, that is always prodding me to "spank" someone who thinks he has a hot-rod. She loves to race.
Bob

As mentioned by turboprop chech out the Super Sidewinder 111". Check my response to this post regarding them. http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,38033.msg393833.html#msg393833

Okay, I'm going to say something hear that may be a little controversial but, I feel that the 4.125" bore S&S motors are the first real attempt to make internal improvements on EVO style motors to compensate for the ever increasing displacements. For years things went virtually unchanged even as engine sizes became larger. Internally there isn't much "significant" difference in parts between a 74" Pan and a 127" EVO style motor. I know that tapers are changed and shaft lengths etc but basicaly they are the same parts. To me it only makes sense that with a 120" motor now being considered "run of the mill" that internal changes should have been made.  These days 100/100 are just respectable numbers with no real room for bragging rights so why are we still running the same rods and crank that we ran back when an 80" was considered a big stroker. I'm not an engineer but it just makes sense to me that when displacement and power go up it is likely putting the internals under more stress. I think it speaks well for the Vtwin that even with enormous increases in displacement the parts have held up. But, I like the concept of bigger motor = bigger parts with improved oiling and cooling. There, I said it. now everyone can call me a dumbass and show me why I'm wrong.

Quote from: uwiik on September 12, 2011, 05:35:23 AM

Quote from: turboprop on September 12, 2011, 04:28:08 AM

Quote from: uwiik on September 12, 2011, 02:02:01 AM

Quote from: turboprop on September 11, 2011, 07:42:52 PM
That 113" is just a larger evo. The super sidewinder engines have the real improvements. You might consider a TC style engine with evo mounts.

you mean fatso motor?

Absolutely not. S&S also makes their twincam Super Side Winder Engines for evo frames. These are complete TC engines that use a special case that has Evo frame mounts.

S&S makes them in a range of displacements, intake sytems and ignitions. Here is a link to a TC 124 with evo mounts, Super G and IST ignition,

http://www.sscycle.com/product/Evolution-Big-Twin/Engines/T124V-Complete-Assembled-Engine-p21057.html

..i even considered 96" s&s thinking the smaller the more reliable, but was told it vibrate like a jackhammer....is it true?

You have it backwards. The bore has very little to do reliability. The stroke is what creates longevity issues. The longer the stroke the faster the piston speed for a given rpm. Regardless of bore size, a 4 5/8" stroke can be balanced to run fairly smooth and will offer near stock like engine longevity.

while working there as a Tech I once brought in a 96" for a rebuild that had 135,000 miles on it and never had a head off. My 113 has 67,000 miles on it now. Many 113's have way more. The 111 is a great choice being a square engine. While at one point the compression releases were a big issue that problem started to go away with revisions around 2003/04. You also have to realise that often the problem that is created when a new bigger engine is installed is not a fault of the S&S product. It is an installer fault, not knowing or paying attention to ignition, timing etc leading to problems. Some ignitions have to quick an advance slope or are just plain wrong for some of the bigger engines.

I begin to think you guys are right about that...... Maybe people with broken S&S engine probably did it wrong in the first place or the user beat the engine senseless since new with no proper break in....

Had a very long chat with my indy...He was being honest by telling me that he dont know squat about modding aftermarket engine and He would be willing and be able to maintain aftermarket engine well providing it is in bone stock factory config...No hot cam, no port, nothing...... His Dad rebuilt countless shovel, pans, and flats, He himself is a second generation indy, used to work for local HD workshop as head technician for 7 years before going indy and took over His Dad's workshop. An engine God for stock HD specification, but known nothing about modding aftermarket engine....

He actually built many bikes with aftermarket big inch engine including revtech, showed me the bikes and the happy owners...stated as long as i would be willing to leave the aftermarket engine bone crate stock, he'd be willing to guarantee that he will be able to tune it on the safe side and being very reliable.... Told me the same thing, stay away from hi comp or stroker engine in my riding condition and climate....

Look at my post for my current engine config:

http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,43201.0.html

Same person built that ' salad bowl' engine. My odometer registered 310.000 miles, and the guy told me He replaced the old worn stock motor on 100.000 + miles and has been running the same 'salad bowl' motor ever since.

Quote from: HOGMIKE on September 12, 2011, 09:13:18 AM

Quote from: uwiik on September 12, 2011, 05:52:22 AM

Quote from: wfolarry on September 12, 2011, 04:59:15 AM
The S&S motors are reliable.
We have a 113 running 9.70's & have never been in the bottom end.
The 111 [on sale this month] is a nice motor.

The more i browse or ask the more confused i become........i trust this forum the most for engine tech.... In your opinion (YES..all of you).... Which One will be less likely to have issue and vibrate less... S&S or Ultima (both 113)... Money is no object, not rich, but i still have my healthy current engine, no problem except for power....so i am not in a hurry, plenty of time to save....

I saw that v111... Looks promising...do you think it will be more reliable than 113, being smaller and all... Lots of my ride will be city traffic....like seriously stuck traffic on 80-90 degree...

Finally super stock or IST ignition?? Also heard IST vibrate more and not too reliable...

Thanks for the patiemce to answer all my questions.... Much appreciated...Cheers....

Never heard about that, all I know is we have a few running around here for the past 4-5 years with no issues. One had excessive piston to wall clearance, but, S&S took care of that for us.

That's the scary part... I live in far east, 21 hrs by plane from the nearest US hub and custom is nightmare here...If any warranty work will need me to send back my engine to US, after 2 claims I would've spent more amount of money on freight and tax as buying another new engine......

Guess I only can pray that if a factory failure does happen it will only involve small stuff...

How much is a good price for brand new current model V111?? Any recommendation as to where to get it? Demon's cycle have an unbelievable price on ebay at just under 5K for wrinkle black version... Anyone have experience with them??

Many of us on this forum have had less than satisfactory experiences with Tom Demons at Demons Cycles. I would strongly advise you do a search on this and other forums before engaging with Demons Cycles.

As to where to purchase a new S&S engine, why not your local indie? Might not be the lowest price but will probably be the best deal for you and your local riding community. The internet is killing our local indies. Support them or they will not be there to support you.

Quote from: turboprop on September 13, 2011, 03:43:22 AM
Many of us on this forum have had less than satisfactory experiences with Tom Demons at Demons Cycles. I would strongly advise you do a search on this and other forums before engaging with Demons Cycles.

As to where to purchase a new S&S engine, why not your local indie? Might not be the lowest price but will probably be the best deal for you and your local riding community. The internet is killing our local indies. Support them or they will not be there to support you.

Quote from: turboprop on September 13, 2011, 03:43:22 AM
As to where to purchase a new S&S engine, why not your local indie? Might not be the lowest price but will probably be the best deal for you and your local riding community. The internet is killing our local indies. Support them or they will not be there to support you.

I also agree 100%.... heck I also own a retail shop and I know what is happening....  BUT...I have a big problem... I do not live in the US, I work and live in Jakarta Indonesia... Things are a lot different here... Rich Indies who have capability to import and stock such stuff ALWAYS comes with bad mechanic and robber attitude.... They only care about going to TV show and charge an arm an a leg to do a bad job....I had my fair share or 'robbery' and ALL the 3 bikes wasn't even safe nor rideable....All built by different well known builders and all happen in a quite long time frame... Trust me when it comes to supporting local indies, I've done my fair bit of 'tuition fee'......I got robbed by many builder which some of them are much richer than me....In term of Harley experience, I am not as fortunate as you guys....being in the US, you have literally thousands of good local indies whereas my choice is somewhat crippled......

I actually stopped my Harley hobby for quite a few years because I couldn't afford a brand new bike and there is no good local indies to be found and all I can afford at the time being a college boy was old shovel and evo harleys engine and chassis and slowly build from there (harley is super expensive here, triple your price, and at that time, can only be bought with cold hard cash). The only HD licensed brand holder here just opened on 1999. so imagine their knowledge about pre TC88 engine.... I browsed a lot of forums and buy books from amazon to learn to do maintenance myself including basic knowledge of TC engine, then I saved enough money to buy a cheap ultra with faulty electrical, screwed oiling and hot rough engine....I managed to convert that nightmare into a carbed sweet running 95" ultra, off course with all bolt on parts and Herko stuff.....(Look, I also buy from Herko   )

Finally during my learning process, I met which I think is the only honest and truly capable indy here, but like most honest indies, they don't have much money and have no such capability to buy and import their own...heck I sometimes even help the dude importing some hard to find parts from Ebays and I stopped doing my own maintenance to my bike and letting this guy do it...I really think I have my fair share o bit on supporting local indies..... Ebay is like the only place I am familiar with, I don't have much choice here... Heck, if you can recommend me a forum member who sell s&s motor and other Harley stuff and stand behind His product, I'll be happy to get that contact and will be very thankful...

LOL!!! Sorry for the long rant. I just want to clear the ground, I DO support local indies.... Peace bro!

at least it sounds as if your Indy is honest. I always laugh when people talk about stroker motors. They quickly assume it means the engine is built like a race engine. That is not always the case. You can have a detuned stroker motor and use the big inches for torque. In the case of the 111" it has 1/8" less stroke than an 80" evo. Or maybe you want a 100" which is 1/4 " less stroke. One thing I do agree on is no high compression. Fuel will only get worse not better. That being said I like my engines at less than 10.5. In most cases you can make most engines run on 87 or 89 octane if you select the correct ratio and cam. I run my 113 at 9.7 and my 124 at 10.5 (stock stud pattern TC 124 was 11.1/1)