HarleyTechTalk

It assists you by indicating the direction and how far away you are from a stoichiometric combustion.  You compare this with what's in your fuel table and adjust the VEs to obtain out the pipe what the fuel table is trying for.

You must be aware that the fuel table uses manifold pressure instead of throttle position.  You can get all the same as "WFO" at a smaller throttle opening than you might think, and it varies with gear and RPM.  So you might need one value in, say, 2500RPM/50% throttle while closed-loop there, but another value while "WOT" open-loop there in a different gear; you'd have to decide which is the most appropriate to use.  It's certainly not all as cut-and-dried as Andy makes it out to be.

Don't forget that the stock sensor might well read different from a broadband sensor in any given situation where they'd overlap, and you want to go with what the bike's sensor has to say when using closed-loop or it won't work as well as you might expect when just putting faith in the broadband sensor.

You've got a TTS, right?  And you've got a copy of the tune Bean did, right?  Why don't you just put in the most applicable base calibration and run a few vtunes on it, to see what you get that way?  You might just like it fine, and if you don't, put Bean's work back into service and leave it alone.  You're not going to get any better than that by yourself at the level of understanding you presently seem to have, unless it's pure blind luck.  But then again, some people make a lot of money pitching pennies or otherwise tossing coins. 

Quote from: Sporty 48 on November 05, 2011, 03:39:08 PM
So a wide band sensor is useful at full throttle, high rpm runs.
But the response time is slower than the narrow bands.
How does the wide band sensor assist tuning during those WFO runs?

The delay is in the area of .5 sec and that is when there is a sudden change in exhaust flow like a throttle stab.

Beast

Quote from: Sporty 48 on November 05, 2011, 03:39:08 PM
So a wide band sensor is useful at full throttle, high rpm runs.
But the response time is slower than the narrow bands.
How does the wide band sensor assist tuning during those WFO runs?

An experienced tuner knows how much delay from combustion to plotting the graph and uses that time offset to determine adjustment points in the fuel maps.

Depending on sample tube length to the measuring O2 sensor(s), and quality of equipment, the delay can be as short as .2 sec to a second or more.

HTH,
Bob

Why thank you Glens, although I do believe you give me more credit than is deserved.
Does that make you feel somewhat superior? I do hope it makes you feel better about yourself, improves your self esteem.

Sportster TTS fuel tables have TPS not MAP, a update that has not quite migrated to the Sportster tunes.
Bean's multi gas unit seemed to take a few seconds to equilibrate to a steady reading, when he reached the desired rpm, with long tubes from the sample port to his analyzer.
The application of an installed wideband sensor on a road machine requires delays, ok.
So why is the data so suspect from a source other than the V-tune?
What is going on here does not pass the smell test, much worse than a shift of whit.

Quote from: glens on November 05, 2011, 04:55:42 PM
You're not going to get any better than that by yourself at the level of understanding you presently seem to have, unless it's pure blind luck.  But then again, some people make a lot of money pitching pennies or otherwise tossing coins. 

Quote from: Sporty 48 on November 05, 2011, 07:06:46 PM
Why thank you Glens, although I do believe you give me more credit than is deserved.
Does that make you feel somewhat superior? I do hope it makes you feel better about yourself, improves your self esteem.

Sportster TTS fuel tables have TPS not MAP, a update that has not quite migrated to the Sportster tunes.
Bean's multi gas unit seemed to take a few seconds to equilibrate to a steady reading, when he reached the desired rpm, with long tubes from the sample port to his analyzer.
The application of an installed wideband sensor on a road machine requires delays, ok.
So why is the data so suspect from a source other than the V-tune?
What is going on here does not pass the smell test, much worse than a shift of whit.

Quote from: glens on November 05, 2011, 04:55:42 PM
You're not going to get any better than that by yourself at the level of understanding you presently seem to have, unless it's pure blind luck.  But then again, some people make a lot of money pitching pennies or otherwise tossing coins. 

Not quite sure what you're talking about there, but you might want to take another look at the AFR table.

"Sporty", I don't really know what level of understanding or experience you really have, that's why I said what I said the way I said it.  You could, after all, be the inventor of motorcycles, dynos, and EFI and you're just here incognito stirring up crap.  Who can say in such a venue as this?

Sorry to say, but it didn't nor doesn't make me feel any better (or worse) about myself.  I'm just trying to give you some advice which I feel is sound.  You can do it or not, I don't care; either way you're certain to get your money's worth out of it.

Quote from: Sporty 48 on November 05, 2011, 07:06:46 PM
Sportster TTS fuel tables have TPS not MAP, a update that has not quite migrated to the Sportster tunes.

I don't know which ones you have on hand.  All ten of the base .mt7 files I have for the sportsters use MAP vs. RPM for the fuel tables.  I just checked each and every one.

QuoteBean's multi gas unit seemed to take a few seconds to equilibrate to a steady reading, when he reached the desired rpm, with long tubes from the sample port to his analyzer.

That's because of the way the gas is sampled with that equipment.  Obviously it wouldn't be any good for feedback in an operating closed-loop system such as ours.  Way too much latency.

QuoteThe application of an installed wideband sensor on a road machine requires delays, ok.

I don't think anybody would be so esoteric as to install a true wideband sensor on a road machine for any other purpose than what would be the equivalent of "in the lab".  As I understand it, you could only buy a few of them for the cost of a brand new sportster, and I don't know if that's just the replacement sensors themselves or the equipment with which they interface.  Likely just the sensors.

The delay I believe you're envisioning, much the same as for Bean's setup, would only pertain if you were fetching exhaust from the system through a tube of some length.  If you had a narrowband or broadband sensor installed on the bike under normal use, there would not be such delay.  There would be no delay for the narrowband and very minimal delay for the broadband while it zeros in on the reference O2 "pressure" it needs to "pump" to/from the backside of its internal narrowband element.  The broadband sensor/controller combination may even be suitable, speed-wise, for most of what our ECM does with its narrowband under normal use.  There's a measurable delay, but it's nothing like what I think you're thinking.  Of course, that all depends on how the sensor is set up to get its sample.  Sometimes the sample takes time to get there when the sensor is not mounted right into the exhaust pipe.

QuoteSo why is the data so suspect from a source other than the V-tune?

The data used in the vtune process is about the best you can get off the data bus and it's used in about the best way it can be used.  That's the difference.  TTS has used real data acquisition equipment to develop the system.  It works as advertised.

QuoteWhat is going on here does not pass the smell test, much worse than a shift of whit.

I agree, but I think you're thinking about the reverse direction from what I'm thinking.

See how easy that is to follow the quote/response?

Blachcherry, Glens,
You are correct about the AFR tables having MAP, it is the VE tables that have Throttle Position on the Sportster mt7's.
I have spent so much time thinking VE's that I confused it with the Air Fuel Ratio table.

Glens,
Yes the quote/response format looks good and is easy to follow.

Vtune
I do not understand Vtune. Anything I do not understand and is difficult to work with tends to be unused.
It was easier for me to start out with a respectable dyno tune then data log and examine data with the MLV-HD and do minor (3%) VE adjustments on lean spots. That result has been very satisfactory.
Before going any further I decided to learn more about tuning, read a couple of books, and wade in here.
Other sites do not have the level of scrutiny found at HTT.
Yes, I need to go back and review basic tuning principles and build vocabulary to keep up with you big dogs..

Andy,
Yes, Andy is what he is. He helps others. He is enthusiastic about tuning and he is constantly trying new ideas. Not a bad dude at all, good to have around. Also Andy talked me into TTS over Power Vision not quite a year ago. Please do not hold it against him

Last night a short ugly long haired FatBoy challenged my tune, told him I was all show and no go.
Gonna ride with that Fatboy today, let him smell my rich open loop tune.

Quote from: Sporty 48 on November 06, 2011, 06:38:28 AM
I do not understand Vtune. Anything I do not understand and is difficult to work with tends to be unused.
It was easier for me to start out with a respectable dyno tune then data log and examine data with the MLV-HD and do minor (3%) VE adjustments on lean spots. That result has been very satisfactory.

Vtune is very much easier to understand and work with than what you're doing.  Really.  All you have to do is follow the directions and ride with smooth, deliberate throttle changes for a few good rides.  Try it.

I think it's a bit weird that you'd gotten a fairly comprehensive tune using the multi-gas method and you then find "lean holes" using the datalogs and a log viewer.  Either the tune wasn't so good or the subsequent method ain't so good.  I'd opt for the latter.

Try a few vtune iterations, please.  It won't cost you anything but a couple hours or so and I think you'll be very pleasantly surprised.

You just have to make sure that you don't have any leaks in the intake or exhaust systems, and that your O2 sensors are getting good samples.  But then again, this is stuff that needs to be done first before you use any method.

Sporty 48

I would be more than happy to help you along with V-Tuning.  I'm sure I could get Mayor to help, too.

Learning without sarcasm is quite fun and I think you would enjoy this.   One thing, though...  I really don't see you having any more power than Bean's Tune, but I DO see that we could possibly get closed loop to work for you.

Either way... don't let this crap get the best of ya, and go put a can of whup ass on that Fatboy for me, OK?

Quote from: Sporty 48 on November 06, 2011, 06:38:28 AM
Blachcherry, Glens,
You are correct about the AFR tables having MAP, it is the VE tables that have Throttle Position on the Sportster mt7's.
I have spent so much time thinking VE's that I confused it with the Air Fuel Ratio table.

Curious as to why you would adjust the VE to fix a lean spot instead of the AFR.  Did Bean map out and cal the VEs when he did your tune?  And believe me, I'm not trying to tell you how to tune, I've never even done any myself, just some data logging, studying and spending time here.

Bean doesn't just calibrate the VEs to generate the AFR values listed in that table.  He juggles them both to get better overall coverage.  The only real downside is that the result is definitely not closed-loop-able.  And by just looking at the calibration when he's done, I'm sure it would make less sense than the results actually produced.  It's my opinion that such measures should only be necessary in corner cases where closed-loop cannot be made to work reliably for whatever reason.

So when you V-Tune, it should be fine just to go out and ride the bike the way that you normally do right?  And then be sure to ride the same way on subsequent V-Tune rides?

I did some V-tune rides last summer and rode in every gear and stepped RPMs up every 8-10 secs to try and fill as much of the map as I could, like if it was on a dyno.  But after thinking about it a little, it seems like I could be wasting a lot of time on that type of V-tuning.

Bean does NOT do closed loop.  He tells every customer that he does OPEN loop only.

Here is what he does...  once he sets his Cubic Inches, he starts to tune...  if he finds anywhere where the VEs get maxed out, instead of starting over and changing the CI table, he just moves the AFR table to get more headroom.   And by that...  his VEs aren't maxxed out anymore.  Bean tunes to an end result of 'what is coming out of the pipe" and does NOT tune to make the ECM "Happy" as his tunes will NEVER be closed loopable.

There simply ARE folks that do NOT wish to have closed loop.  This is an ever present argument on here.  Why one cannot see that some prefer one operating method over another and just leave it alone is beyond me.  Glens and Steve should leave it alone now that they ran off all of the opposing viewpoints.

For Sporty 48...  he is mistaken in listening to Andy and adjusting a Bean tune... it TRULY is NOT adjustable.  Starting fresh out of the box with a TTS base tune, he would NOT have these issues.  But.........  how does sarcasm and belittling someone makes them want to tune the 'right' way with TTS?  How does 'finding' and posting an obvious mistake to discredit another member help Sporty 48 feel comfortable with an offer to help?  Glens... you actually are way worse at arguing YOUR POV that BVBob and Stroker ever were and we KNOW what happened to them.   Lighten up, dammit.

Right this second...  I am hooking up my mirror mount LCD screen, have the laptop in the back, especially rewired my new 120r to AFR O2 sensors in the pipe and I AM going to run some v-tunes on my map.  See how it works with a 120.

Quote from: Blackcherry Low on November 06, 2011, 09:04:49 AM
So when you V-Tune, it should be fine just to go out and ride the bike the way that you normally do right?  And then be sure to ride the same way on subsequent V-Tune rides?

I did some V-tune rides last summer and rode in every gear and stepped RPMs up every 8-10 secs to try and fill as much of the map as I could, like if it was on a dyno.  But after thinking about it a little, it seems like I could be wasting a lot of time on that type of V-tuning.

That is NOT correct at all.  One needs to ride in a manner that hits all of the cells.  Let's allow Glens to fill in the how to do that.

Quote from: wurk_truk on November 06, 2011, 09:21:34 AM

That is NOT correct at all.  One needs to ride in a manner that hits all of the cells.  Let's allow Glens to fill in the how to do that.

Thanks truk, so I guess I'll continue then the way that I was previously doing the V-Tuning.

Quote from: Blackcherry Low on November 06, 2011, 09:39:33 AM

Quote from: wurk_truk on November 06, 2011, 09:21:34 AM

That is NOT correct at all.  One needs to ride in a manner that hits all of the cells.  Let's allow Glens to fill in the how to do that.

Thanks truk, so I guess I'll continue then the way that I was previously doing the V-Tuning.

Seems the absolute best way to a successful homebrew vtune in a timely manner (no guesswork) is to have a remote monitor to efficiently populate and spend enough time in each cell to furnish the system with enough data to tune in properly.
HTH,
Bob

Quote from: FLTRI on November 06, 2011, 10:17:23 AM
Seems the absolute best way to a successful homebrew vtune in a timely manner (no guesswork) is to have a remote monitor to efficiently populate and spend enough time in each cell to furnish the system with enough data to tune in properly.
HTH,
Bob

Dunno about best way, but a remote monitor (or a tablet PC mounted in a viewable spot) sure shows you the amount of time you waste getting data on a cell that you already have enough data on...  and provides feedback on what gear/rpm/throttle adjustments you need to make to gather data for empty cells. Just don't be running into a tree or on coming traffic .

I think lambda bikes are easier, my neighbor fills most of his cells just driving blind.

Quote from: yositime on November 06, 2011, 10:30:00 AM
I think lambda bikes are easier, my neighbor fills most of his cells just driving blind.

Yep, that is why I almost always do the pc5 installs speed density.  Way easier to see the trends.

This is the same bike presented in alpha-n and speed density.  I actually make a few final tweaks on the alpha-n map after the majority of the work is done on the MAP based table.  They dial right in.

http://www.ncs-stl.com/pc5wb/AN_vs_SD.bmp

Beast

Andy,
Again, would you be kind enough to show me/us by circling the areas of interest and how you apply tuning techniques to the areas.

Sorry for asking again but, for whatever reason, you seem hesitant to explain the statements you make assuming? everyone here you show scatter graphs to understand and readily see what you reference as good, bad, indifferent AFR.

Looking forward to an answer so I/we can learn, or at least get on the same page as you with these scatter graphs you keep displaying.
Bob

Low

Just today I tried v-tuning withOUT the monitor.  There IS a knack to it.  Mayor has a thread on how to ride.   You want to just about lug it to almost an extreme.  Also, a VERY steady hand is needed.  What happens, and if you played back a histogram of a vtune session...  to much throttle puts you over the KPA limit to collect data.

Start out, with this very steady hand and ride like normal.  Come back and view histogram.  Then its easier to grasp whats going on.  One wants to vary the throttle AND the load to hit all the cells.

You CAN get it is you replay the histograms.

That being said...  I'm working to get my monitor up and running....  makes tuning so much easier.  Cost was $100 and a bit of ingenuity.

Hilly terrain will make this job so much easier.  Today I was on basically flat trying to narrow down a 120r tune....  talk about excessive speeds coming on VERY quickly.

Also, you really jumped into the wrong thread with your VALID questions....  This is the ANGRY thread and you aren't being best served here.   Read some of the topics in Mayor's "Sticky"  http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,38632.0.html.  Then when you have more questions... start a NEW thread and ask away.

All of us are letting Andy and Glens get the better of us on this thread.  Glens, Mayor, or Bob would be more than happy to answer questions, I am SURE, in a different thread, Low.  If no one else will help you, If you would accept help from a dumbass, ....  I would be pleased to help.

Just seems all of us NEED an angry thread at all times, with the open/closed loop arguments gone, aren't we all just inventing more arguments?  For the sake of arguing?

Quote from: wurk_truk on November 06, 2011, 01:40:36 PM
Low

Just today I tried v-tuning withOUT the monitor.  There IS a knack to it.  Mayor has a thread on how to ride.   You want to just about lug it to almost an extreme.  Also, a VERY steady hand is needed.  What happens, and if you played back a histogram of a vtune session...  to much throttle puts you over the KPA limit to collect data.

Start out, with this very steady hand and ride like normal.  Come back and view histogram.  Then its easier to grasp whats going on.  One wants to vary the throttle AND the load to hit all the cells.

You CAN get it is you replay the histograms.

That being said...  I'm working to get my monitor up and running....  makes tuning so much easier.  Cost was $100 and a bit of ingenuity.

Hilly terrain will make this job so much easier.  Today I was on basically flat trying to narrow down a 120r tune....  talk about excessive speeds coming on VERY quickly.

Truk, I just reviewed the last four V-Tune runs that I did and looked at the histogram.  They actually filled in quite well, so I guess I'll press on and see what I come up with.  Probably won't be able to get my hands on a display like some of you guys are using for a while.

Quote from: FLTRI on November 06, 2011, 01:21:00 PM
Andy,
Again, would you be kind enough to show me/us by circling the areas of interest and how you apply tuning techniques to the areas.

Sorry for asking again but, for whatever reason, you seem hesitant to explain the statements you make assuming? everyone here you show scatter graphs to understand and readily see what you reference as good, bad, indifferent AFR.

Looking forward to an answer so I/we can learn, or at least get on the same page as you with these scatter graphs you keep displaying.
Bob

On the right plot you are seeing the MAP vs RPM plot, just like the Lambda tuned bikes, but instead of looking at the VE in the field, you are seeing the AFR that you are hitting.  You can clearly see in the middle of that plot that I am getting about 14.2 AFR thru almost everywhere from about 55 kpa thru 75 kpa,  and between about 3200 and 5200.  This is where the vast majority of my low power riding is done.  As I roll into the higher MAP sections of the map, you can see that I drop to blues and greens indicating mid to low 13 AFR.  There is a pattern of a few red dots that I would keep an eye on here or there but no strong pattern that would be a a serious concern.

On occasion, you will see a fairly fuzzy pattern on the Speed density map on the right that shows up as a very defined area on the alpha-n map and is easier to get to on that map.  This example does not have that issue.

The Harley codes force you to have to only use one of the two tuning methods depending on the code.

Beast

Low, GOOD JOB!!!   The thing to remember is when dialing in a tune using v-tune is each run piles all together into one tune.  If you end up with a 'problem' spot, it is no big deal to make a run just trying to get that hard to get spot or two.

Good Luck and keep us posted.

Wurk Truk,
I have no problem with anyone on this site. Here to learn and no way will my ego interfere with learning tuning or whatever.

There is more than one way to skin a cat. More than one way to tune. I think some here forget that.

As far as this bike's tune goes, it is very, very good. I followed Beans advise and believe he is a very good tuner. I changed the air filter post tune and filled in what I found to be lean holes with TTS's, Whittlebeast's and MLV HD's help. The tune is not quite finished but I ran out of warm weather.

Glens,
I do look forward to doing a closed loop tune and Vtuning. It just got cold, trashed my computer and decided to learn from the best available. As far as my tune goes it was done the easiest way by my thinking.

The ride today was quiet, no other bikers showed at the meeting spot. It was too cold for them.

Quote from: whittlebeast on November 06, 2011, 02:09:44 PM

On the right plot you are seeing the MAP vs RPM plot, just like the Lambda tuned bikes, but instead of looking at the VE in the field, you are seeing the AFR that you are hitting.  You can clearly see in the middle of that plot that I am getting about 14.2 AFR thru almost everywhere from about 55 kpa thru 75 kpa,  and between about 3200 and 5200.  This is where the vast majority of my low power riding is done.  As I roll into the higher MAP sections of the map, you can see that I drop to blues and greens indicating mid to low 13 AFR.  There is a pattern of a few red dots that I would keep an eye on here or there but no strong pattern that would be a a serious concern.

OK, that's very clear. Now take me through the steps/procedure from seeing the scatter graph to your proposed changes to fueling maps.
As I have stated for a long time Andy, I'm really looking for the time saving aspect of these scatter graphs...as you have indicated.

QuoteThe Harley codes force you to have to only use one of the two tuning methods depending on the code.

Not a problem from our perspective and I believe a couple other tuners made the same statement. We simply don't have the tuning issues with Sportsters as you seem to have. We've tuned at least 50 of the rubber mounts with only 1 bike that we had to leave in open loop due to the "zoomie" exhaust pipes (no baffles) so EGR was terrible.

All tuning bets are off if proper O2 sensor operation has not been verified. We pay close attention in making sure the O2 sensors work properly before attempting to run/tune in closed loop.

Bob