HarleyTechTalk

Need some guidance on setting up the cal file to vtune. I know I need to set AE, DE, to zero, turn off knock control, Is it correct that I need to set the entire AFR table to 14.6? On the AFR table it has Stoich at 14.68 since all the gas in my area is mixed with 10% ethanol do I need to lower the AFR table stoich value? The AFR value is set to 14.45 do I leave this as is? Also read to put PE to 10,000 rpm. Any advice on a CLB value? I looking for a combo of good performance, fuel economy, and engine temps. When you change a value in the CLB table should you use the same value across the whole table?

Thanks

Chris

Chris see if this helps.

It's a tuning guide that's been around for a while written by Doc I think.

http://www.v-twinforum.com/forums/efi-maps-calibrations/143920-tts-v-tune-instructions-doc.html

to set up a calibration for vtuning:

If vtuning on the street, I turn off the AE and DE tables (set to zero).  Steve doesn't necessarily advocate this, but these tables being left active doesn't affect dyno tuners as much as road tuners. When the AE (accelerator enrichment) and DE (decelerator enleanment) tables are active, data collection is paused.

Go into tuning constants and set the PE mode to 10,000.  The PE mode is power enrichment, you do not want that function to be active during vtuning. The PE mode will trump the AFR table, essentially taking the bike out of closed loop data collection when the table is active.

You want to set every cell in the afr you can to 14.6.  This is not setting your afr to 14.6, but rather setting the bike into closed loop mode for those cells.  The easiest method to set the afr table into vtuning closed loop mode is left mouse click onto the RPM square, and use the 20 increments to set the cells to their leanest setting (which may not be 14.6 settings).

Set the front/rear closed loop bias to the desired afr when in closed loop (do not go a higher value than 780).

Then just go out and collect data while doing a vtune recording. Just remember, the vtune software can not make guesses on what the engine needs in areas it does not see so it's your job to give it all the data it needs.  For tips on getting the most data while vtuning, read reply #5 of this thread: http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,38115.0.html

I don't see any value in setting the AE and DE to zero for a road vtune run.  Sure, you'll get more hits that way, no doubt about it, I just don't feel the transients provide for optimum data anyway.  I'd rather throw some data away and know that the hits I got were all actually helpful to the end I want to achieve.

Either way, you'll want to use extremely deliberate and smooth throttle control while riding.

Don't worry about what the actual stoich AFR for your fuel is.  Lambda is lambda and ultimately that's what the ECM is using in the background regardless the "AFR" numbers in the tables.  Just pretend you're able to get "14.6" gasoline and that that's what you're using.  You'll know better but the ECM won't care.

I wish to expand a bit for better understanding.  Setting your AFRs to 14.6 all across the board on every cell you can... the 100% won't allow 14.6.......  this is a 'switch' that tells v-tune that you wish to use v-tune for those cells.  What fuel and final AFRs you decide upon is NOT an issue at this point.  14.6 setting is simply a 'switch'.  OK?  This setting allows v-tune to use closed loop to TUNE with.   Once done, THEN you can make decisions on whether you wish to leave any given cell in closed loop and what AFR value you want that cell to work at.

781 is truly the richest value for a CLB I would recommend.  Depending on the bike and build...  you may wish to go a bit lower.  Like 650 or 700.

You did not give the year of your bike, so I also want you to realize that from 10 and up on touring... there is no CLB to set, as your bike has a Lambda tune instead of an AFR tune.

Also, you ARE correct in worrying about gasohol... but for v-tuning it simply can't matter as 14.6 is THE switch and that IS the setting to use.  If all you normally run is gasohol, PLEASE use THAT fuel to v-tune with.  Getting your VEs correct to the fuel is important.

My mistake Bike is an 07 FLHTC stock 96 stock cams, v&h dresser dual headpipes w/ rineheart slip ons and a Big Sucker A/C.

Thumper thanks for guide. Mayor thanks for all the great tips.

Glen and wurk lambda does not apply to me. In reference to CLB value if i'm reading correct the higher o2 voltage the leaner the afr and the lower the o2 voltage is richer?

The lower the CLB number, the leaner the mixture will be; higher CLB=richer.  Look at the "O2 Voltage Calculator" under the "Tools" menu in the mastertune program.

I know that you're not using a "lambda" calibration.  What I'm saying is that when you put "14.6" into a fuel table cell, you're telling the ECM to go closed-loop there.  Depending on what you have set for CLB values, you'll be setting the closed-loop mixture.  With your fuel, the actual AFR anywhere won't be what's in the table, it'll be relative to that. 

If you'd set the CLBs to 450, the closed-loop mixture would be lambda=1 irrespective of the fuel mix you're using; the fuel will be burning at stoich.  If you'd set the CLBs to 785, the closed-loop mixture would be a lambda value of 0.984, and that will hold true irrespective of the fuel mix you're using.  The "AFR" numbers in the fuel table will in almost every case nowadays be a lie.  If you think in terms of "lambda" it's easier, but you're constrained by the software in the ECM to act otherwise.

With the CLBs at 450, all the other "AFR" numbers in the table will be as correct as the "14.6" is.  That is to say, if you had 14.2 fuel, all the "14.6"s in the table will be 14.2 actual after a vtune, and any other "AFR" numbers in the table will be just as proportionately incorrect, but will be correct out the pipe the same proportion from the stoich value, just as much as they are proportionately different from the "14.6"s in the table.  This is why I said that ultimately, the ECM is using lambda behind the scenes.  It's because it's using a lambda probe (commonly referred to as an "O2 sensor") for feedback.

Forgetting for a moment the fact that the AFR table values aren't "real" anymore, I'm going to speak of another way in which they'll be incorrect if/when you set the CLBs to a higher number for a vtune.  Say you've got a "13.5" somewhere.  With 14.2 fuel, that will actually become [behind the scenes] (13.5 x 14.2 / 14.6) or 13.13 when CLB=450.  But if CLB=780 (lambda of 0.983) with 14.2 fuel, your "13.5" will become (0.983 x 13.5 x 14.2 / 14.6) or 12.91.  Pretending that the table numbers are correct, which is fair enough to do so long as you also pretend you're burning 14.6 fuel, with a CLB=780, a table entry of "13.5" would actually put (13.5 x 0.983) 13.27 out the pipe.

All this is confusing, I know.  And I'm probably making it more so just now.  I'm having a hard time tonight getting the words out just the way I want them...

Maybe I can bale the straw better:

Forget anything you think you might know or care about which fuel mix you're using.  With an AFR calibration, just pretend the fuel is stoich=14.6.  It'll be okay when you're done vtuning.

When you're done vtuning with a CLB other than 450 (I'd use 760 or so), when restoring your AFR table to pre-vtune settings, if you're anal, you'll want to divide any non-14.6 entry by whatever the lambda of your CLB is.

Glen,

Thanks for the explanation, I think i got some of that lol. So 450mv is the lowest value we can select which is 14.68 and the max is no more than 780 (so you don't burn out sensor)which is 14.43 If this is correct, then there is a small window of adjustment you can make in the CLB tables. So what is a good value to keep engine temps down but still give you good mpg's?

I run mine at 762.   

Quote from: mayor on November 12, 2011, 04:33:52 AM
I run mine at 762.   

At 762 what do see for mpg's on average in-town and hwy? Once i have determined which value to put in the CLB tables is it okay to use the same value in the entire table?

I live in the mountains, and I like twisting the wrist...so my results aren't necessarily transferable to others.  On the hi-way trips I've made this year, I'm usually around 40-42 mpg riding 70-80 mph on my batwing touring bike.  I've gotten as bad as 38 mpg riding local, and as good as 45 mpg while light cruising.  I'm usually right around 40 mpg with most fill ups, but I tend to ride a little harder on the throttle than most (and I'm generally riding in areas that have very little flat ground).  Based on comparitive testing (other bikes riding with me), my milage has been consistant with other bikes that were riding the exact same way.  When my wife rides our RK (Tmax tuned) and I ride my batwing bike (TTS), our milage is generally with in a mpg from one another and usually less than a mpg different. The difference is my batwing bike is pushing more air.   

I run 762 on the entire table. 

Under the tuning constants should the knock control be turned off?

I turn it off there when I'm vtuning. 

Going to attempt my first run today, no external monitor option, so going to have to go by feel.

lug way more then you think is possible ie top gear at idle really smooth throttle control off and on, find some nice long grades to lug up as you slowly smoothly roll on the throttle. oh and lug it way more then you think is possible lol

a monitor helps, but the tecnique is the same either way.  Here's the keys: 

1. limit the sudden changes in throttle pressure (meaning no quick acels, and try to limit sudden decels).
2. vary your gear selection, and do not be afraid to use higher or lower gears than you normally would.
3. vary your rpm's.
4. try to hold the throttle back while decelerating (this helps get the right side of the chart filled in). 
5. give the ecm time to take readings, meaning don't just run through an area.
6. Do not just go out and ride like you normally would. In fact, try not to ride like you normally would.  There will be plenty of time for that after your tune is done. 

when you get a run or so done, post your vtune ve's and we can give constructive critism on how well you did. 

Here is a v-tuning 'tip'.  If you leave your CLB to 450, like Glens says...  there is an advantage no one thinks about...  There IS no offset....  If one DOES use an offset, that offset is now a permanent part of the tune.  All the cells are similarly offset by internal math in the ECM.

One needs to remember that v-tuning is a process that simply uses the ECM to look at the 'learn' trims and converts those 'trims' into changes.  The software zeros in on having NO trims.  Pretty simple.  Then if we tune at other than 450, we are stuck with that number because off of the 'trims' are offsetted...  SEE?  No offsets... the the v-tune reading the 'trims'... those trims are offset free.

What this allows is one to do all the v-tuning, etc...  and then have the ability to alter CLB settings withOUT having to re tune.

It's the same as if a dyno tune was done with different tuning method but used MasterTune to input the data.  One can always alter the CLB willy nilly.  It is the MATH that stops a DIYer from changing CLB later if that math is in play during the tuning process when using v-tune.

For a mostly stock bike...  like a Stage 3 or under, I, myself, recommend v-tuning with the CLB at 450.  Get everything all dialed in, and THEN use the CLB as a cooling device and MPG device...  balancing the two needs.

Oh... and the difference between 14.6 or 14.45 in hugely minimal and will in no way 'endanger' the bike.

But, my friend, the math will re-enter the playground if you change CLBs after the vtune

Say you vtuned at 450, then changed it to 780.  That would change the average closed-loop mixture from stoich (lambda value of "1") to a lambda value of 0.983 (as per the O2 voltage calculator).  Turning 0.983 upside down will give us the baseline correction the ECM will start to apply to the fueling at closed-loop (and which will eventually become applied everywhere else): 1.02x

Thus, all the "14.6"s will become "14.4"s, all the "13.5"s will become "13.3"s, etc.  Now I know that ain't much difference and you'd have to be pretty darned anal to worry about it, but it'll be there all the same as if you'd vtuned at CLB=780.  Only now, instead of the adaptive fueling range starting out centered (as it would be after vtuning at 780), the system will be working off-center by a smidgen.  In this case it'll all be six of one and half a dozen of the other, but understanding what's going on is always beneficial.

Some folks like the idea of running a bit off-center as standard practice, but in the other direction instead.  Pulling a little fuel as a matter of course is sometimes considered safer in the event things get a little awry and "proper" corrections quit getting made.  Then, there would be a little too much fuel being supplied instead of the other way around: a little too little.

Granted, with the numbers we're using here, it's all a little like picking non-viable nits.  But when you've got the tools and you're already using them, it's not too much trouble to go that extra micron

Well back from run, things did not go as planned. Was out riding and lost my rear brakes, thankfully i did not go down. The rear brakes were done by a Harley dealer this past May. I was lucky that I was able to pull into an independent bike shop, told him what had happened, we went outside to take a look, found one banjo bolt missing and another just about completely out, the pad had fallen off and is gone and the piston was extended out to the rotor. Guy said he could do the repair, I called the HD dealer and told them what happened and what we found. They opted to pay to have the bike towed to their location as I was not going to ride it there. Now waiting on them to take a look at it and find out what they are going to do about it. I do have some data from the run but not sure I should use it or start over. If some one can tell how to post it here and let me know whether or not to create a tune for the next run that would be great.

zip up copies of the calibration used for the session and the log file of the session.  zip files attach here quite nicely if they don't wind up too big.  Use maximum compression.  There are plenty of free versions of archiving utilities which do "zip" if you don't already have one natively installed.

Ok let's see if I did this right

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

It's a fine start.  Generate the result with the vtune software, burn it to the bike, and go again.  Looks like the base cal is a good match so far.

Glens is right on how things get whack a teeny bit.  But, Things get the SAME whack with any CLB.

The difference... which Glens passed upon is:  tuning at 450 allows one to CHANGE the CLB just like any other setting as desires and needs dictate.  Tuning with the CLB in place means that is all there is.  If one wishes to later change their CLB...  they have to do a complete re-v-tune.  AFR base cals sure are not as friendly as Lambda.  I, myself, am back to an AFR tune on my bike and had to alter O2s, wiring, ECM, etc to achieve this.

The first 120r base cal coming from TTS will be an AFR base cal.

Steve...........................................................................................

I will get the bike back from the dealer tomorrow, so I will see if I can work in another run. Any pointers from my first run? I know I have to hit the upper rpm's and tps. Didn't get there because of the rear brake failure.

Quote from: wurk_truk on November 12, 2011, 03:54:09 PM
Glens is right on how things get whack a teeny bit.  But, Things get the SAME whack with any CLB.

The difference... which Glens passed upon is:  tuning at 450 allows one to CHANGE the CLB just like any other setting as desires and needs dictate.  Tuning with the CLB in place means that is all there is.  If one wishes to later change their CLB...  they have to do a complete re-v-tune.  AFR base cals sure are not as friendly as Lambda.  I, myself, am back to an AFR tune on my bike and had to alter O2s, wiring, ECM, etc to achieve this.

The first 120r base cal coming from TTS will be an AFR base cal.

Steve...........................................................................................

Rumor has it he's going to build one special for me to minimize the bitching and moaning.
Ron