HarleyTechTalk

Quote from: NCTURBOS on November 16, 2011, 11:55:59 AM

Quote from: qtrracer on November 16, 2011, 11:35:27 AM
Try Darin Morgan, he gives classes on induction. Don't know the cost or if you are looking for this type of tutelage.

Here's a link about this:  http://darinmorgan.com/

I like the small print at the bottom:  "NOTE: The amount of information presented in this course is immense. Please make sure to bring your audio recorders, and calculators!"



K.

Either learn from one of the very best or get it done from one of the best. Anything else is waste of time.

to the guy that started this post. get the joe mondello article and read it. look at the pictures of his ports. get a set of heads and practice. when you have a good set i will do the following. install and size your guides. you furnish the details on your valve seat profiles, this to include you seat to throat ratio, number of angles or radius that you want. i will cnc machine your heads and flow test. i will do this set for no charge. the only charge is the return shipping. you post your results on this site. either they will be good or they will make nice door stops for your shop. thanks charlie

at my last head seminar there were 4 young guys wanting to know about cylinder heads. they were interested in the multi valve heads. the other 4 were older guys who were informational type, they had no plans on porting cylinder heads. they were very interested when we did a spin drop on a LS1 cylinder head. in my view there are lots of young guys wanting to learn, but they want to see machines do the work. short block charlie

Quote from: dynaglide on November 16, 2011, 06:18:39 AM
answer:  apprenticeship...

I think you'll find that most porters (at least the ones who are accepted by discerning customers as good) have learned from another porter.  The skills and knowledge get passed down, and each generation adds their own contribution to progress.  Porters are craftsmen, in the same sense as tool-and-die makers or machinists, rather than technicians in the sense of mechanics or plumbers.  And the ones I know did not start out by porting heads; they started by sweeping the shop floor, graduating to cleaning heads coming into the shop, then moving on to simple repair jobs on the heads, and gradually being entrusted with higher-level work as the craftsman they were "apprenticing" under gained confidence at each step along the way that their apprentice could be trusted to not screw up the job he was being given.  If you couldn't even sweep the floors reliably, no way were you gonna be trusted with cleaning parts coming in, and so on.

Thanks for taking me down a notch!  I guess I should have done a real apprenticship in a machine shop instead of diging ditches in 100* plus weather or 10* weather 40+ hours a week and then going to school 3 nights a week. I almost forgot about the saturdays I spent in school as well.  But hey, without relying on real craftsman, we wouldnt have plumbing in billion dollar buildings and million dollar homes.  If I screwed up, I trashed a $600k plus home not a $600 head.

Maybe I should sell my plumbing company and start porting heads so I can get some respect.

Heh heh, I figured somebody would take up the rest of that equation, yeah I feel Ive wasted my life as an underappreciated "grease monkey" as well...... 

Quoterather than technicians in the sense of mechanics or plumbers.

QuoteMaybe I should sell my plumbing company and start porting heads so I can get some respect.

I do think that the mention of technicians in this context shows both plumbers and mechanics in a bad light..

Max

Quote from: Barrett on November 16, 2011, 01:47:06 PM
http://www.aera.org/ep/downloads/ep11/EP07-2010_50-54.pdf   I found this on HTT a while back.. I would start on something besides a head to get the feel of your tools.

that was a good read thx

Quote from: MaxHeadflow on November 17, 2011, 07:26:07 AM

Quoterather than technicians in the sense of mechanics or plumbers.

QuoteMaybe I should sell my plumbing company and start porting heads so I can get some respect.

I do think that the mention of technicians in this context shows both plumbers and mechanics in a bad light..

Max

Me too, last time I checked you didnt need a license with the department of public health to port heads.

Quote from: sbcharlie on November 17, 2011, 03:52:01 AM
to the guy that started this post. get the joe mondello article and read it. look at the pictures of his ports. get a set of heads and practice. when you have a good set i will do the following. install and size your guides. you furnish the details on your valve seat profiles, this to include you seat to throat ratio, number of angles or radius that you want. i will cnc machine your heads and flow test. i will do this set for no charge. the only charge is the return shipping. you post your results on this site. either they will be good or they will make nice door stops for your shop. thanks charlie

Quote from: sbcharlie on November 17, 2011, 03:52:01 AM
to the guy that started this post. get the joe mondello article and read it. look at the pictures of his ports. get a set of heads and practice. when you have a good set i will do the following. install and size your guides. you furnish the details on your valve seat profiles, this to include you seat to throat ratio, number of angles or radius that you want. i will cnc machine your heads and flow test. i will do this set for no charge. the only charge is the return shipping. you post your results on this site. either they will be good or they will make nice door stops for your shop. thanks charlie

      Charlie, thanks for the support. Im going to take your advice and pick up the book by Joe mondello. I have a set of evo heads at home, is there any reason that I can not practice with these heads.
      After I read the book and practice with the evo heads, then I will purchase a set of used twin cam heads and give it my best.....then send them to you Charlie......this is going to be really cool, to see how my heads flow, then post the results on this forum, good or bad.
     Meanwhile I'm going to do a search on this forum about the importance of seat to throat ratio and valve seat angle.
      One of my goals is to have a set of heads on my bike that I ported myself.
            thanks for all the advice and suggestion everyone has given me, (even the plumbers).

You,ve got to start somewhere. Charlie has given you a good opertunity. I think there are more guys that do their own heads than you think. Do your heads and send them to Charlie, run them on your bike "dynoed". You'll be hooked.

             Charlie, I was checking out your website and found some info on valve seat profiles. It said that you have tested over 50 different profiles and documented each change that was made.
             My question,...... is it a industry standard to change the valve seat profile, or is this something that you specialize in?.....is it normal for head porters to change the valve seat profile?
             Also, how big of a difference does it make to have the valve seat profile changed?........
             Do you have any photos that you can share of some different profiles, maybe a stock valve profile verses your custom profile?......
                     
                                                       Thanks Duff.

if i were you get set of early twin cam heads. the exhaust need lots of work and metal removed. look at how mondello shapes the d port. this is very important. on valve seat profiles do some research. the most important angle in a valve seat, is the critical angle. i am very lucky in that i get to travel all over the world for NEWEN seeing different valve seat designs. i can assure you i have seen many different profiles. you have to remeber that all the air flow in head must go through a valve seat profile. i excited to see what you come up with. thanks sbc

      I Need some suggestion about the tools I need....... I've found allot of head porting tool kits on the net, but allot of them seem really pricey to me,,, $800 is allot to spend on a kit for my first set of heads.
                             
     Do I need a electric grinder or can I use a air grinder (I already have a nice air compressor)?
     
    Has anybody seen any grinders at home depot that I can use? (I have a home depot charge card so I can charge the tools and make payments)?  Wonder if Home Depot  carries the bits I need?

    Harbor Freight is another good option for me, Anybody know if H.F. carries any what I need?       
   
    This is going to be a cool project and I'm going to make sure I take photos of (the whole process) and post the photos along with Short Block Charlies flow bench results           

Get an air powered die grinder.  Much faster.  Also a few nonferrous carbide cutting burrs in different shapes..  Get this kit from eastwood for the final finish.  http://www.eastwood.com/engine-porting-kit.html

Dont forget the magic glasses so you can "see" air 

get foredom set up that is cable operated, with a variable speed. do not go cheap on this tool to port. e mail me your address and i will give you some old burrs. use slow speeds and tap magic for cutting oil, note you can also use this on sanding rolls.  use both convential  and climb cuts when you cut on the ports. sbc

Quote from: Deye76 on November 16, 2011, 09:29:27 AM
"There may be less competition than the H-D crowd, and more willing to share knowledge. Last part could be just a guess on my part."

This is exactly what I don't understand about guys on this site that port heads.  I have tried a couple times to discuss porting techniques/theories.  Just a civilized discussion not my head flows this my head flows that.  And not once did anyone reply.  It would seem that (the porters)  think that their port profiles are a national secret.  Well guess what there not. Go to speed talks advanced engine section and some of the best head porters in the world will openly discuss what they do to port a head and anything else involved in porting.  This is NOT meant to pi$$ in anyones Cheerios  so don't try to turn it onto a flaming contest.

Gabby I to will help you in anyway you would like.  Do your self a major favor and BEFORE you pick up a grinder read, read and read some more then read some more.
Check out the sites that some of the other guys posted and ask any question you want they will answer it they are all good sites.  Go over to Bruces PTS site and understand and build yourself a flow bench.  Listen and understand anything that Darin Morgan C Boggs, Mondello, Harold Bettes to name a few has to say. Porting is not black magic you just need to understand what air does. 


Good Luck in your quest
Art

          The foredom tools look top notch..... I'm in the process of selling my leather jacket to finace the purchase of the Foredom grinder. Check out the swap meet section in misc. bike equipment... Thanks Duff. 

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tools are irrelavent, there is no text book procedure for what you are asking

you have to understand volumetric efficency-bore vs stroke-air speed-how a camshaft works-dyno vs weight to hp ratios, torque vs hp-air intake to exhaust variables, cylinder psi variables to signal charge, cam lift to stroke, ignition timing, cylinder temperatures..............blah blah blah........., i understand and have a feel of these things pretty well and still have others port my stuff and i have tools!!!!!!!!!

Gabbyduffy, there are hundreds of reasons why you shouldn't do this, and only one reason why you should...because you want to. If you are a petrolhead, and you have the right attitude, you will succeed. Passion and tenacity are not optional.
There is very little information out there pertaining to Harleys, but there are three books that I have found totally inspirational, none of which are H-D related.
Tuning for Speed by Phil Irving. Absolutely amazing since most of this was originally written as magazine articles during WW2.
Tuning BLs A-Series Engine by David Vizard. When I read this the first time, I went out and bought a flowbench. A real shame this guy isn't into Harleys.
Engineer to Win by Carroll Smith. It's about racing cars and attitude.
Whenever I feel that I am going down a blind alley, need to clear my head in order to take a fresh look, or just need to bolster my enthusiasm, I pick one of these up. Like a Christian would use a bible for inspiration.
And yes, you will get to a point where you need to spend more money on tooling and equipment. You could go out and buy a Rottler SG8 and a Superflow 1020 Probench, but it won't turn you into a cylinder head guru. You could go out and buy a custom built left handed Fender Stratocaster, but it won't turn you into Jimi Hendrix. But then what did Tom Sifton and Jerry Branch start out with? Look at what Seasick Steve can do with three bits of string nailed to a plank of wood....Look what some on this forum are achieving with tuning EFI without a dyno. The machine doesn't make the man, the man makes the machine.
Don't say you can't do it untill you have continuously tried and then failed. There will be two possible outcomes to this. Either we'll see a little used Foredom up for grabs, or you'll be looking for more equipment.....
Go for it.

 

Quote from: Powerglides on November 20, 2011, 04:51:04 AM
Gabbyduffy, there are hundreds of reasons why you shouldn't do this, and only one reason why you should...because you want to. If you are a petrolhead, and you have the right attitude, you will succeed. Passion and tenacity are not optional.
There is very little information out there pertaining to Harleys, but there are three books that I have found totally inspirational, none of which are H-D related.
Tuning for Speed by Phil Irving. Absolutely amazing since most of this was originally written as magazine articles during WW2.
Tuning BLs A-Series Engine by David Vizard. When I read this the first time, I went out and bought a flowbench. A real shame this guy isn't into Harleys.
Engineer to Win by Carroll Smith. It's about racing cars and attitude.
Whenever I feel that I am going down a blind alley, need to clear my head in order to take a fresh look, or just need to bolster my enthusiasm, I pick one of these up. Like a Christian would use a bible for inspiration.
And yes, you will get to a point where you need to spend more money on tooling and equipment. You could go out and buy a Rottler SG8 and a Superflow 1020 Probench, but it won't turn you into a cylinder head guru. You could go out and buy a custom built left handed Fender Stratocaster, but it won't turn you into Jimi Hendrix. But then what did Tom Sifton and Jerry Branch start out with? Look at what Seasick Steve can do with three bits of string nailed to a plank of wood....Look what some on this forum are achieving with tuning EFI without a dyno. The machine doesn't make the man, the man makes the machine.
Don't say you can't do it untill you have continuously tried and then failed. There will be two possible outcomes to this. Either we'll see a little used Foredom up for grabs, or you'll be looking for more equipment.....
Go for it.

VERY well said and I agree 100%.  I have no desire to port heads, but it strikes me that this THOUGHT PROCESS, coupled with passion and self need to do better.....  one can have a good chance of success.

Quote from: ready2ride on November 19, 2011, 09:21:41 PM
tools are irrelavent, there is no text book procedure for what you are asking

you have to understand volumetric efficency-bore vs stroke-air speed-how a camshaft works-dyno vs weight to hp ratios, torque vs hp-air intake to exhaust variables, cylinder psi variables to signal charge, cam lift to stroke, ignition timing, cylinder temperatures..............blah blah blah........., i understand and have a feel of these things pretty well and still have others port my stuff and i have tools!!!!!!!!!

But what does this stuff have to do with porting?   Max

QuoteDavid Vizard

That was the guy I was thinking about..

Max

He will be down your way there Bruce, Temecula in the spring for a seminar.