HarleyTechTalk

Hi All
Maybe I should have posted in the twin cam section but my concerns really relate to the tuning process (on the road or dyno)
I have an 09 fxdfse (buid date October 08), I have had it about 6 months.
The bike was stock and my mods so far are catless header pipes and CS performance baffles and street slammer bars.
When I took the factory bars off I lost my tach.
I got the TTS and have started vtuning.
I am a bit worried about high revs.
i have a few boxes filled at 4000rpm , one at 4500 and one at 5000.
I am going to rig up the tach again to keep an eye on my rpms.

I wanted to tune the bike to prepare myself for tuning after major mods.
I have 259e cams , 10.5:1 pistons , minor headwork , hoban crank and timekin conversion ready to go in our winter , about 6 months away.
I am aware the cranks can scissor with a differential load applied (acceleration and decelleration), especially in high torque motors but mild builds and stock motor are not immune.
There were also problems with the cylinder liners moving in the 110s.

My point is , should I be content with an almost good enough tune now and wait till after I bullet proof my bottom end and do the other mods before a serious tune?

Or am I being a big girl's blouse?

Thanks

It all depends on what's good enough ?
You can't tune 80-100 kpa , so if you are ok with a motor that is either to lean or to rich at wot you could call it good enough. And just not ride there.

I find a lot the SE /CVO owners , perfectly happy with a well tuned stage 1.
The problem is ,they have never felt what a good stage 1 -110 is supposed to feel like.
If all you do is swap cams without increasing compression to match the longer cams. You just push everything to the right ( higher rpms) so now the bottom end feels soft .
Add to that a half baked tune and you are worse off than you were with the stage -1 with 255 cams .
So I guess my answer is yes tune it no matter what you decide.
Then you can make a honest evaluation .

So why is it that you keep saying they cannot tune 80 - 100 kPa? Nothing can be further from the truth. Yes, Vtune will not do it automatically for them but there is nothing stopping him from tuning those areas with the tools provided in the system. As for a half baked tune as you call it there have been plenty of people who have tuned there bikes and have then gone to a dyno only to find that they were already within a few % of what the dyno tuner got them, all one needs to do is use the search feature here on this site and many others to see that.

So how do you tune those areas with just the TTS tools Steve? I wasn't able to on my bike but maybe I was missing something. 

Quote from: 98fxstc on January 29, 2013, 04:32:22 PM
Hi All
Maybe I should have posted in the twin cam section but my concerns really relate to the tuning process (on the road or dyno)
I have an 09 fxdfse (buid date October 08), I have had it about 6 months.
The bike was stock and my mods so far are catless header pipes and CS performance baffles and street slammer bars.
When I took the factory bars off I lost my tach.
I got the TTS and have started vtuning.
I am a bit worried about high revs.
i have a few boxes filled at 4000rpm , one at 4500 and one at 5000.
I am going to rig up the tach again to keep an eye on my rpms.

I wanted to tune the bike to prepare myself for tuning after major mods.
I have 259e cams , 10.5:1 pistons , minor headwork , hoban crank and timekin conversion ready to go in our winter , about 6 months away.
I am aware the cranks can scissor with a differential load applied (acceleration and decelleration), especially in high torque motors but mild builds and stock motor are not immune.
There were also problems with the cylinder liners moving in the 110s.

My point is , should I be content with an almost good enough tune now and wait till after I bullet proof my bottom end and do the other mods before a serious tune?

Or am I being a big girl's blouse?

Thanks

I would learn to vtune on the street with mods done now.  Since you are planning on mods later.  You can revtune the thing and always go to a dyno to check your open loop portion of the tune.  Or make the dicision to dyno or street tune after the mods.  A couple of questions I would have is.  How far away is a good dyno tuner?  I know some of you guys have to travel quit a bit to get to one down there.  Are you close to anyone that has street tuned w/ TTS?  Are you a bounce off redline type of guy?

The rest of the BS you hear will just be people trying to discredit TTS and what it can all do.  Kind of, thier koolaid is better tasting type thing.  They will even tell you to ignore everybody besides them.  I suggest keep an open mind and take it all in, and weed through it later.

Quote from: strokerjlk on January 30, 2013, 03:46:50 AM
It all depends on what's good enough ?
You can't tune 80-100 kpa , so if you are ok with a motor that is either to lean or to rich at wot you could call it good enough. And just not ride there.

I find a lot the SE /CVO owners , perfectly happy with a well tuned stage 1.
The problem is ,they have never felt what a good stage 1 -110 is supposed to feel like.
If all you do is swap cams without increasing compression to match the longer cams. You just push everything to the right ( higher rpms) so now the bottom end feels soft .
Add to that a half baked tune and you are worse off than you were with the stage -1 with 255 cams .
So I guess my answer is yes tune it no matter what you decide.
Then you can make a honest evaluation .

WHAT? After I already tuned in those areas? Did I miss something here?
80 to 100 is not a problem to get tuned.

Quote from: Steve Cole on January 30, 2013, 08:06:26 AM
So why is it that you keep saying they cannot tune 80 - 100 kPa? Nothing can be further from the truth. Yes, Vtune will not do it automatically for them but there is nothing stopping him from tuning those areas with the tools provided in the system. As for a half baked tune as you call it there have been plenty of people who have tuned there bikes and have then gone to a dyno only to find that they were already within a few % of what the dyno tuner got them, all one needs to do is use the search feature here on this site and many others to see that.

Why don't you admit those areas are nothing more than interpolation, just a guess and no actual sampling has been done there. A FEW PERCENT?   not good enough, especially at WOT   And FWIW, how can you even call V-tune tuning?  Tuning is finding the best fuel mixture and timing for max power economy and engine temp, how are you going to measure max power or power at any other level of running? I suppose we could use the on road dyno feature. Just tell the cop you were V-tuning, I am sure he will cut you some slack.........not!

Quote from: Coyote on January 30, 2013, 08:24:34 AM
So how do you tune those areas with just the TTS tools Steve? I wasn't able to on my bike but maybe I was missing something. 

First thing you need to do is measure what is going on. There are several ways to do that included with Mastertune programs.  Speed/Distance Calculator, Quarter Mile Calculator and Dyno Horsepower Estimator, O2 voltages to name a few. With a bike equipped with properly working O2 sensors one needs to look at the voltage coming from the O2 sensor at WOT. If that voltage is jumping up and down or is it steady at a given voltage through the RPM range. So you use DataMaster to record the O2 data and you take a look at it. With the information you get you would then make adjustments to the VE tables to increase or decrease them. Once you have made changes and then recorded the results you will be able to get the O2 sensors to a nice smooth voltage across the RPM range for both cylinders, you now have to look at the voltage and see if you want it higher or lower for peak power but the stock O2 sensors will show you what is going on.  You can now use the other tools I mentioned to see what gives you peak performance. Different software levels will give different voltage readings  but on a typical 2006 - 2012 (Lvl 176) cable throttle Big Twin engine 900- 920 mV works nicely for a target voltage. For a 2008 only DBW that same voltage works. On 2010 - 2013 DBW Touring Big Twin (Lvl 009 or 044)1740- 1760 mV works nicely for a number to target.

You are doing the EXACT same thing a dyno tuner is doing by setting values, programming the bike then testing again. Your just using what included in the Mastertune kit to do it. While it is NOT automatic it has always been in Mastertune. For the guys with none O2 equipped bikes nothing has changed and you would still need to do it the same as you would with a carburetor.

Now a dyno tuner uses a dyno and a different way to measure which may or maynot be more accurate than what you have the method is one and the same. Run the bike and record the data, then make changes and try again.

You lost me at "First thing".    Is there a documented procedure for doing this?

Quote from: Coyote on January 30, 2013, 01:37:40 PM
You lost me at "First thing".    Is there a documented procedure for doing this?

I've not seen it but he's correct. The O2 voltages give an indication on the mixture present and this can translate roughly to the afr. However, not sure any of us knew what values to look for until Steves recent post.
Ron

Quote from: Steve Cole on January 30, 2013, 12:58:50 PM

Quote from: Coyote on January 30, 2013, 08:24:34 AM
So how do you tune those areas with just the TTS tools Steve? I wasn't able to on my bike but maybe I was missing something. 

First thing you need to do is measure what is going on. There are several ways to do that included with Mastertune programs.  Speed/Distance Calculator, Quarter Mile Calculator and Dyno Horsepower Estimator, O2 voltages to name a few. With a bike equipped with properly working O2 sensors one needs to look at the voltage coming from the O2 sensor at WOT. If that voltage is jumping up and down or is it steady at a given voltage through the RPM range. So you use DataMaster to record the O2 data and you take a look at it. With the information you get you would then make adjustments to the VE tables to increase or decrease them. Once you have made changes and then recorded the results you will be able to get the O2 sensors to a nice smooth voltage across the RPM range for both cylinders, you now have to look at the voltage and see if you want it higher or lower for peak power but the stock O2 sensors will show you what is going on.  You can now use the other tools I mentioned to see what gives you peak performance. Different software levels will give different voltage readings  but on a typical 2006 - 2012 (Lvl 176) cable throttle Big Twin engine 900- 920 mV works nicely for a target voltage. For a 2008 only DBW that same voltage works. On 2010 - 2013 DBW Touring Big Twin (Lvl 009 or 044)1740- 1760 mV works nicely for a number to target.

You are doing the EXACT same thing a dyno tuner is doing by setting values, programming the bike then testing again. Your just using what included in the Mastertune kit to do it. While it is NOT automatic it has always been in Mastertune. For the guys with none O2 equipped bikes nothing has changed and you would still need to do it the same as you would with a carburetor.

Now a dyno tuner uses a dyno and a different way to measure which may or maynot be more accurate than what you have the method is one and the same. Run the bike and record the data, then make changes and try again.

So, after you've done all of this, if you're motor still has good ring seal, do you have any time to just pleasurably ride the bike before the snow flies? Sorry, but this sounds like a whole lot of f'ng around to me for someone who has limited time to just ride his/her bike. Why not spend four or five hours getting the bike dyno tuned and be done with it?

Quote from: strokerjlk on January 30, 2013, 03:46:50 AM
It all depends on what's good enough ?
You can't tune 80-100 kpa , so if you are ok with a motor that is either to lean or to rich at wot you could call it good enough. And just not ride there.

I find a lot the SE /CVO owners , perfectly happy with a well tuned stage 1.
The problem is ,they have never felt what a good stage 1 -110 is supposed to feel like.
Then you can make a honest evaluation .

Thanks Stroker
The stage 1 is my first step.
Learning to vtune the stage 1 is the first step in my TTS education.
I was happy with it stock , but I have plans !
And when I finish I want it to be as good as I can get it with the funds and the expertise I have .
The more I can do myself,the more I can spend on parts.

Quote from: Steve Cole on January 30, 2013, 08:06:26 AM
Yes, Vtune will not do it automatically for them but there is nothing stopping him from tuning those areas with the tools provided in the system.

Quote from: Steve Cole on January 30, 2013, 12:58:50 PM
First thing you need to do is measure what is going on. There are several ways to do that included with Mastertune programs.  Speed/Distance Calculator, Quarter Mile Calculator and Dyno Horsepower Estimator, O2 voltages to name a few. With a bike equipped with properly working O2 sensors one needs to look at the voltage coming from the O2 sensor at WOT. If that voltage is jumping up and down or is it steady at a given voltage through the RPM range. So you use DataMaster to record the O2 data and you take a look at it. With the information you get you would then make adjustments to the VE tables to increase or decrease them. Once you have made changes and then recorded the results you will be able to get the O2 sensors to a nice smooth voltage across the RPM range for both cylinders, you now have to look at the voltage and see if you want it higher or lower for peak power but the stock O2 sensors will show you what is going on.  You can now use the other tools I mentioned to see what gives you peak performance. Different software levels will give different voltage readings  but on a typical 2006 - 2012 (Lvl 176) cable throttle Big Twin engine 900- 920 mV works nicely for a target voltage. For a 2008 only DBW that same voltage works. On 2010 - 2013 DBW Touring Big Twin (Lvl 009 or 044)1740- 1760 mV works nicely for a number to target.

You are doing the EXACT same thing a dyno tuner is doing by setting values, programming the bike then testing again. Your just using what included in the Mastertune kit to do it. While it is NOT automatic it has always been in Mastertune. For the guys with none O2 equipped bikes nothing has changed and you would still need to do it the same as you would with a carburetor.

Now a dyno tuner uses a dyno and a different way to measure which may or maynot be more accurate than what you have the method is one and the same. Run the bike and record the data, then make changes and try again.

Thanks Steve
I'm ok with your first post.
I'll keep the info in your second post up my sleeve for later!

Quote from: hrdtail78 on January 30, 2013, 09:13:43 AM
I would learn to vtune on the street with mods done now.  Since you are planning on mods later.  You can revtune the thing and always go to a dyno to check your open loop portion of the tune.  Or make the dicision to dyno or street tune after the mods.  A couple of questions I would have is.  How far away is a good dyno tuner?  I know some of you guys have to travel quit a bit to get to one down there.  Are you close to anyone that has street tuned w/ TTS?  Are you a bounce off redline type of guy?

The rest of the BS you hear will just be people trying to discredit TTS and what it can all do.  Kind of, thier koolaid is better tasting type thing.  They will even tell you to ignore everybody besides them.  I suggest keep an open mind and take it all in, and weed through it later.

Thanks hrdtail
I'm not a 'bounce off redline' kind of guy but I do like to have a play from time to time.
I like a bit of 'get up and go'.
I don't know anybody with a TTS.
I don't know anybody who self tunes with anything.
I have access to a dyno , but not really practical , the operator doesn't know anything about TTS.
I want to be able to tune my own bike when I do mods.

Quote from: Rider57 on January 30, 2013, 09:36:26 AM
WHAT? After I already tuned in those areas? Did I miss something here?
80 to 100 is not a problem to get tuned.

Thanks Rider
How do you get 80-100?
(And I don't think I'm the only one who wants to know?)

Quote from: BVHOG on January 30, 2013, 10:26:53 AM
I suppose we could use the on road dyno feature. Just tell the cop you were V-tuning, I am sure he will cut you some slack.........not!

Thanks BVHOG
I was doing my low map area , going down a hill at about 10mph in 5th gear when a cop went past and had a look at me.
He had a car pulled up about a mile down the road!

Quote from: rbabos on January 30, 2013, 02:50:22 PM
I've not seen it but he's correct. The O2 voltages give an indication on the mixture present and this can translate roughly to the afr. However, not sure any of us knew what values to look for until Steves recent post.
Ron

Thanks Ron
We all learn something from healthy debate!


My original question-
Because the tuning process requires data from outside usual riding habits , outside usual load conditions for interpolation ,the motor is subjected to greater load conditons than usual.
While the process requires gradual changes and hold steady to cover the histogram,should I worry about my crank?


Thanks

Avoid hammering the comp at low rpms in high gears to fill cells. Nothing else in the routine should stress the crank out.
Ron

Quote from: rbabos on January 30, 2013, 03:32:33 PM
Avoid hammering the comp at low rpms in high gears to fill cells. Nothing else in the routine should stress the crank out.
Ron

Thanks Ron
Thats the sort of info I'm looking for !

Quote from: 98fxstc on January 30, 2013, 04:20:57 PM

Quote from: rbabos on January 30, 2013, 03:32:33 PM
Avoid hammering the comp at low rpms in high gears to fill cells. Nothing else in the routine should stress the crank out.
Ron

Thanks Ron
Thats the sort of info I'm looking for !

dont get in the habit of draggin your brakes.
do some sampling two up if you have to.
find up hill grades .
really just use common sense and dont stress the drive train,or brakes and rotors.

Quote from: strokerjlk on January 30, 2013, 05:28:51 PM
dont get in the habit of draggin your brakes.
do some sampling two up if you have to.
find up hill grades .
really just use common sense and dont stress the drive train,or brakes and rotors.

Thanks stroker
Didn't like the idea of draggin the brakes.
I've got some uphill grades but might need to find a pillion.
Been using common sense and coming up short on the boxes.
I'll have another look at mayor's vtune procedure.

Quote from: rbabos on January 30, 2013, 02:50:22 PMThe O2 voltages give an indication on the mixture present and this can translate roughly to the afr. However, not sure any of us knew what values to look for until Steves recent post.

Very roughly, and certainly not accurately, especially in the rich region where your WOT tuning will take place. Frankly, since Steve is so insistent on this board about using tuning tools within their design parameters, I'm surprised he would recommend using the sensors in this way.

Quote from: ToBeFrank on January 30, 2013, 05:42:25 PM

Quote from: rbabos on January 30, 2013, 02:50:22 PMThe O2 voltages give an indication on the mixture present and this can translate roughly to the afr. However, not sure any of us knew what values to look for until Steves recent post.

Very roughly, and certainly not accurately, especially in the rich region where your WOT tuning will take place. Frankly, since Steve is so insistent on this board about using tuning tools within their design parameters, I'm surprised he would recommend using the sensors in this way.

I've read the instructions Steve posted and I think I get it but this is also what I don't get. If the O2 info is not good enough to vtune with, why would I manually do the same?

I know on my 2011 bike, it was messed up after vtuning at WOT. Mayor helped it some but never got it close until another member had a very similar bike dyno'd. Those corrections got me close but the original vtune was way lean at WOT.

I'm just trying to learn if there was any other reasonable option to get those columns.

Quote from: Coyote on January 30, 2013, 05:47:49 PMI've read the instructions Steve posted and I think I get it but this is also what I don't get. If the O2 info is not good enough to vtune with, why would I manually do the same?

Because you will not get any sort of accuracy. You cannot map a specific AFR to a specific voltage. It's outside the range of what the sensor is designed for.

Here is a graph of the O2 response (taken from Bosch's documentation):

[attach=0]

That little curve in the upper left illustrates how inaccurate they are in the rich range.

QuoteI'm just trying to learn if there was any other reasonable option to get those columns.

Not with narrow bands. Unless you tuned WOT at stoich, of course.

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

I get that Frank. Thanks

Interesting. So much for that concept.
Ron

Quote from: rbabos on January 30, 2013, 06:13:22 PM
Interesting. So much for that concept.
Ron

you knew better.

didnt you try it once upon a time

Quote from: strokerjlk on January 30, 2013, 06:38:00 PM

Quote from: rbabos on January 30, 2013, 06:13:22 PM
Interesting. So much for that concept.
Ron

you knew better.

didnt you try it once upon a time

Well, the graph does explain some things that I wasn't aware of way back then.
Ron

Quote from: rbabos on January 30, 2013, 06:48:43 PM

Quote from: strokerjlk on January 30, 2013, 06:38:00 PM

Quote from: rbabos on January 30, 2013, 06:13:22 PM
Interesting. So much for that concept.
Ron

you knew better.

didnt you try it once upon a time

Well, the graph does explain some things that I wasn't aware of way back then.
Ron

That graph has been in Mastertune under tools since day one.

Quote from: Coyote on January 30, 2013, 05:47:49 PM
link=topic=59163.msg631065#msg631065 date=1359596545]

Quote from: rbabos link=topic=59163.msg630984#msg630984

I'm just trying to learn if there was any other reasonable option to get those columns.
/quote]

I thought the vision was what you are now tuning with. It collects data at 100% kpa w/ stock O2's.