HarleyTechTalk

Quote from: wfolarry on February 12, 2013, 10:47:48 AM
How does a lube cause a torque wrench to give a false reading?

What I meant was the lube takes away from the friction which allows the bolt or plug in this case to turn a bit farther before the tq wrench breaks at it's setting. My crude tests with Rotella 15-40 motor oil show about 4 lbs difference in this 12-18 lb range.

Imagine what our head bolts would do with no lube?

Quote from: WI Bob on February 13, 2013, 06:14:11 PM
Imagine what our head bolts would do with no lube?

Life wound be really boring??
Max

Quote from: Deye76 on February 13, 2013, 01:40:17 PM
If you want it to never come out, use the green Loctite - sleeve & bearing retainer.   

Has anyone ever heard of a spark plug hole with a Time Sert installed ever backing out? I called Time Sert yesterday and the tech support guy said to install the insert into the plug hole dry...he said with the heat generated that loctite just turns to powder and it not needed because the bottom of the insert itself locks into place. He did say to put some 30 wt oil on the inside of the insert when installing it for easier threading of the insert tool when locking it into place.
I only want to do this one time, and never have to worry about it coming out.
I did find a Permatex red high temp, high strength, thread locker that withstands 450*...the green Loctite 290 I found only withstood 300*.

No Cents

If a heli-coil is backing out, bearing & sleeve retainer (might be a different color now) will keep it in. shouldn't need it with a timesert

Do you have enough room for a sert?  What size vavles in in those heads?  2 inch intake?  This might make your decision for you.

I got the Time Sert kit today. I followed the directions to the tee...and it only takes about 5 minutes to install the insert into the head. I went ahead and did both heads while I had them off the bike...and they turned out great. It's a very easy kit to use.
I really like the end results with the Time Sert inserts...it is a fantastic product.

No Cents

Quote from: No Cents on February 14, 2013, 02:55:48 PM
I got the Time Sert kit today. I followed the directions to the tee...and it only takes about 5 minutes to install the insert into the head. I went ahead and did both heads while I had them off the bike...and they turned out great. It's a very easy kit to use.
I really like the end results with the Time Sert inserts...it is a fantastic product.

No Cents

good news Ray. I can testify that you love you some never seize
please use the harley plugs. the ION sensing is operating with them and I cant guarentee what anything else would do .
if you change your plug brand ,put the stock wires back on.
you know pulling the heads and installing the  time serts ,reguires a re tune.....
no way those new head gaskets and exhaust gaskets are gonna flow the same

 I'm going to run the stock plugs Jim.   retune? ...maybe with the 662-2's in later this summer/fall.
I think about those cams all the time and wonder if they would have bumped the torque numbers up some.
I only got to take one ride on it since I got it home...but it felt like a bad mammy jammy. It sure melts the back tire on 4K shifts 

No Cents

Quote from: No Cents on February 14, 2013, 03:42:16 PM
I'm going to run the stock plugs Jim.   retune? ...maybe with the 662-2's in later this summer/fall.
I think about those cams all the time and wonder if they would have bumped the torque numbers up some.
I only got to take one ride on it since I got it home...but it felt like a bad mammy jammy. It sure melts the back tire on 4K shifts 

No Cents

thats a tuff call. you might get your tq. and lose hp on the big end.
or it might make more hp/tq before 6200,than it does now.
I know what my answer would have been a couple months ago? but now?.. I couldn't say for sure if it is the heads or the cam that makes it pull out so far. or is it the combination of both.
Larry says these heads turned out really nice. and I agree .so now is it just the heads or is it the cams,or the combo.
would the 662-2 only pull to 6200 with your combo,like they do most of the time ?  would they pull farther? or would they make more hp/tq before 6200 and still roll over at 6200?
but yeah ..only one way to find out.I don't know if its worth it other than just  being 8 up with gotta know syndrome.
that bike has a feel all its own now.

 When I get it back together...I'm going to ride it the way it is for at least the summer.   It feels very responsive the way it is now and the power seemed endless on it. The throttle response is simply amazing on it.
I know I've gotta be 8 up for sure...curiousity has the best of me for right now...but hopefully after a little more seat time on it, and I won't even think of the 662's anymore.
  I do agree that it is probably a combo of both Larry's headwork, and the 594's with their wider LSA's. They seem to work together very well as a package...along with your tune ! 

No Cents

 

Keep the 594's. The 662's might be harder on rear tire life.

Quote from: hrdtail78 on February 14, 2013, 08:19:30 PM
Keep the 594's. The 662's might be harder on rear tire life.

But I think the 594's are going to be a little rough on the rear tire wear also ! 
I just wish it would warm up a little around here so I can get a little more ride time.
Maybe a little trip down to the sunshine state would cure my winter time blues.

No Cents

A trip to Florida in February will definitely cure what ails ya'

Never ever use anti seize on a plated spark plug, as the plating itself IS for anti seizing.  I had a NGK bulletin around here quite awhile that stated that.

http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/pdf/tb-0630111antisieze.pdf

Quote from: wurk_truk on February 15, 2013, 04:35:03 AM
Never ever use anti seize on a plated spark plug, as the plating itself IS for anti seizing.  I had a NGK bulletin around here quite awhile that stated that.

http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/pdf/tb-0630111antisieze.pdf

Saw that quite some time ago. First install I would agree. Problem is plugs are quite often pulled many times inspected and reinstalled. I'd think the plating is pretty much toast after first install, so personally a dab of antiseize with a lower torque value is acceptable.
I'd like to know how the bare plug with antiseize is exempt from full torque breakage since the lubrication exceeds what the chromate plating would offer for slip. Makes me wonder if the plating process weakens the steel or the steel is softer to counter hydrgen embrillement from the plating process?
Ron

Quote from: rbabos on February 12, 2013, 11:15:40 AM
Wrench don't know the difference. It should have been mentioned the set torque will increase the pressure on the threads with lube,  similar to an overtorque condition. Torque value in the book is for dry fit.
Ron

Not sure why you say I don't know the difference, difference of what, all I stated was Time-Certs work well.

Quote from: chuck the wrench on February 15, 2013, 05:53:16 AM

Quote from: rbabos on February 12, 2013, 11:15:40 AM
Wrench don't know the difference. It should have been mentioned the set torque will increase the pressure on the threads with lube,  similar to an overtorque condition. Torque value in the book is for dry fit.
Ron

Not sure why you say I don't know the difference, difference of what, all I stated was Time-Certs work well.

Took me a while to figure this comment out. (Torque Wrench), not (chuck the wrench).
Ron

If you want to get real technical about it once the gasket is compressed that's it. If you take the plugs out & put them back in the gasket is already compressed so the torque value would be different. That's why most guys ruin their plug holes taking the plugs out & in & out & in.....put a new gasket on there or put a new plug in.

Quote from: wfolarry on February 15, 2013, 06:56:49 AM
If you want to get real technical about it once the gasket is compressed that's it. If you take the plugs out & put them back in the gasket is already compressed so the torque value would be different. That's why most guys ruin their plug holes taking the plugs out & in & out & in.....put a new gasket on there or put a new plug in.

Can't say I've seen a difference in torque.  Takes more rotation at first to compress the gasket ring but only stops at a compressed torque value with a click. It repeats from there at the same torque with the plug indexed location being the same for both. Just clicks sooner since gasket is already flat.
Ron

I installed timeserts in the heads on my former 1982 Shovelhead. They were still going 15 years later when I sold the bike. If you do the job, I would definitely recommend that it be done on the bench both for access and also so that no chips get into the cylinders......yeah, yeah, I know all about grease and other tricks. It will still get in there. Anyway, Tmeserts are the absolute best method. They are even better than the original threads right in the aluminum. The ones that I used were made of hard bronze.

Helicoils will always, I said always come out and so will anything that is stuck in there with Loctite or other thread locking chemicals.

I removed both heads to install the Time Serts. It did produce a lot of shavings while using the kit for the installation. I would "not" recommend anyone try installing the Time Serts with the heads on the bike...grease on the tap will not catch all the metal shavings created !
If you take your heads off...it only takes five minutes to do it per head...and it will keep the chance of any metal going into the cylinders and creating future headaches. 
The 17.5mm long insert I used did put about 1 1/2- 2 threads inside the chamber pertruding past the plug hole...so I called Time Sert yesterday and asked their tech about the extra material inside the chamber. The told me to carefully use a dremmel tool and grind the extra material off and run the install reamer back thru it when I was done grinding the extra material off. He said the last 4- 5 threads on the insert have the locking teeth on it (to prevent it from ever backing out) and it would not hurt to remove the excess sticking inside the chamber.
I did what he said and made it flush with the inside of the plug hole so it has the original chamber shape with no extra material from the insert sticking out inside the chamber.
Overall...it is a very nice quality kit, easy to use, and I would use it again if ever needed.

No Cents

I wouldn't attempt it unless I rigged a plate with air fitting to the exhaust port with an open valve. This blows the chips out as you go. Grease is not the best sollution. Best is off the bike if for no other reason to level the insert and remove any protrusions.
Ron

Quote
The 17.5mm long insert I used did put about 1 1/2- 2 threads inside the chamber pertruding past the plug hole...so I called Time Sert yesterday and asked their tech about the extra material inside the chamber.

I would also check the depth of the plugs... If you needed to remove some of the Timesert there is a good chance your plugs are exposed and may want to fined the correct depth of spacer/washers. otherwise that can be a hot spot and source of pinging.

With aluminium heads and when there is protrusion with the plugs, then I used the aluminium timeserts and don't trim them. That will shield the plugs.

Quote from: q1svt on February 16, 2013, 06:28:36 AM

Quote
The 17.5mm long insert I used did put about 1 1/2- 2 threads inside the chamber pertruding past the plug hole...so I called Time Sert yesterday and asked their tech about the extra material inside the chamber.

I would also check the depth of the plugs... If you needed to remove some of the Timesert there is a good chance your plugs are exposed and may want to fined the correct depth of spacer/washers. otherwise that can be a hot spot and source of pinging.

With aluminium heads and when there is protrusion with the plugs, then I used the aluminium timeserts and don't trim them. That will shield the plugs.

This is true , especially on heads modified in the chamber. I required roughly a .070 brass washer to set the plug depth from protruding a thread into the chamber.
Ron

The Time Sert actually cuts two groove into the outside edge of the spark plug hole. One is to have a lip for the insert to rest into...the other cuts a space for the spark plug washer to seat into. The kits tool used to do this cuts both ledges at the same time. It is a very well thought out installation kit. The plugs electrodes ended up perfect inside the chamber after grinding away the excess insert material.

No cents