HarleyTechTalk

I've attached a snapshot of my idle with a throttle blip. Trying to fix off idle stumble. I added fuel to the 15 and 20 MAP columns to rich en it up and that helped (thanks Durwood), but can't help to notice the difference in the front vs. rear VE % outputs. Front VE increases rear decreases, with the blip. So, which one is wrong, do i adjust? I think the rear.

The question I have is, is this the input command from the ECU that I see, or is it the output from the O2 sensor? Both should decrease, if it's the input command, because both decrease in my VE map.

Which way do I adjust the VE's?  I think I should up the ve's at 1000rpm and 40-50 MAP? But I'm probably wrong.....

Also, is this anything worth looking at, or no significance?

Any help from those in the know will be greatly appreciated.

Laser

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

What kpa do you idle at?
If you have the ve's dialed in , don't mess with them.
If you don't think you hit them at 1250 40-50 -60 kpa then take a look at the cells around it and see where you at.
You have decel enleanment going on ,in that  snapshot also?
Start at 1250 30-40 kpa then 1500 40-50 kpa then. 1750 40-60 kpa

Just a thought. You may fine up to 70kpa come into play on blipping. Easy way to deal with this and seems to work for me is put it in gear, load the engine with the clutch apply brake and roll in some throttle to vtune the higher kpas in low rpm areas. Takes the guess work out and it should cure the blipping lean area that you are hitting right now. Can be done right in the driveway as well. Repeated hard rollons right off of idle will work as well to set this area. Your choice whichever you feel more comfy with when it comes to the clutch.
Ron

Idle MAP is high 20's to maybe low 30's. Yes, I do have some decel enleanment going on.

I do think I have the VE's dialed in pretty well, hit all of those areas in the past. I will try your method rbabos, in the driveway.

My wife and I are getting out today and I'll see how the increased fuel helped before I try anything else. I believe in the one change at a time to chase the cause and effect. With her on the back, I notice this off idle issue more easily.

Thanks Jim and Rbabos, I'll let you know how it goes.

Laser

I made the mistake of dropping the timing too much in this area once in the 50-70 kpa. It was a turd on launch and while I'm not a blipper, most likely it would have exibitted the same as you described. Just something else to look at, if this area of timing has been changed. Failing all else, the accel table with a slight increase might cure it also.
Ron

Quote from: rbabos on June 14, 2013, 07:21:03 AM
I made the mistake of dropping the timing too much in this area once in the 50-70 kpa. It was a turd on launch and while I'm not a blipper, most likely it would have exibitted the same as you described. Just something else to look at, if this area of timing has been changed. Failing all else, the accel table with a slight increase might cure it also.
Ron

Had similar with the T-max system on the 07 dyna. Raised the idle timing from about 6 or 8 deg best I can remember up to 16deg at 1024rpm and 20deg at the next step up to 1280rpm. Idles smoother and cooler and never any stumble.

Quote from: redmtrckl on June 14, 2013, 09:43:05 AM

Quote from: rbabos on June 14, 2013, 07:21:03 AM
I made the mistake of dropping the timing too much in this area once in the 50-70 kpa. It was a turd on launch and while I'm not a blipper, most likely it would have exibitted the same as you described. Just something else to look at, if this area of timing has been changed. Failing all else, the accel table with a slight increase might cure it also.
Ron

Had similar with the T-max system on the 07 dyna. Raised the idle timing from about 6 or 8 deg best I can remember up to 16deg at 1024rpm and 20deg at the next step up to 1280rpm. Idles smoother and cooler and never any stumble.

Pretty sure he has 22 deg timing at idle . And his blip shows 22 deg.
I dont think timing tip in is a problem . Pretty sure laser has that down by now.
Some bikes hate to blip . You just have to watch it real time and make decisions .
It's hard to armchair a blip .
It idles at 29 kpa and is efficient enough ( i suspect) that it don't move much kpa wise when blipped . Rpms go up and you might just be in an area that when data logging is decel.
Or you tried to correct decel with ve's and your blip hits that spot .
Low kpa idle , high efficient motors take some massaging .

Quote from: strokerjlk on June 14, 2013, 10:28:47 AM

Quote from: redmtrckl on June 14, 2013, 09:43:05 AM

Quote from: rbabos on June 14, 2013, 07:21:03 AM
I made the mistake of dropping the timing too much in this area once in the 50-70 kpa. It was a turd on launch and while I'm not a blipper, most likely it would have exibitted the same as you described. Just something else to look at, if this area of timing has been changed. Failing all else, the accel table with a slight increase might cure it also.
Ron

Had similar with the T-max system on the 07 dyna. Raised the idle timing from about 6 or 8 deg best I can remember up to 16deg at 1024rpm and 20deg at the next step up to 1280rpm. Idles smoother and cooler and never any stumble.

Pretty sure he has 22 deg timing at idle . And his blip shows 22 deg.
I dont think timing tip in is a problem . Pretty sure laser has that down by now.
Some bikes hate to blip . You just have to watch it real time and make decisions .
It's hard to armchair a blip .
It idles at 29 kpa and is efficient enough ( i suspect) that it don't move much kpa wise when blipped . Rpms go up and you might just be in an area that when data logging is decel.
Or you tried to correct decel with ve's and your blip hits that spot .
Low kpa idle , high efficient motors take some massaging .

Jim: I don't see any blip in that picture. Looks like the tail end of it with decel fuel showing. Kpa, rpm and MAP show no blip. Did I miss the actual DME file because all I see is a .gif. Just asking because my v rod will easily pull 50kpa on a hard blip and the 120 would do that or more, depending on how aggressive the blip is.
Ron

Quote from: rbabos on June 14, 2013, 12:48:37 PM

Quote from: strokerjlk on June 14, 2013, 10:28:47 AM

Quote from: redmtrckl on June 14, 2013, 09:43:05 AM

Quote from: rbabos on June 14, 2013, 07:21:03 AM
I made the mistake of dropping the timing too much in this area once in the 50-70 kpa. It was a turd on launch and while I'm not a blipper, most likely it would have exibitted the same as you described. Just something else to look at, if this area of timing has been changed. Failing all else, the accel table with a slight increase might cure it also.
Ron

Had similar with the T-max system on the 07 dyna. Raised the idle timing from about 6 or 8 deg best I can remember up to 16deg at 1024rpm and 20deg at the next step up to 1280rpm. Idles smoother and cooler and never any stumble.

Pretty sure he has 22 deg timing at idle . And his blip shows 22 deg.
I dont think timing tip in is a problem . Pretty sure laser has that down by now.
Some bikes hate to blip . You just have to watch it real time and make decisions .
It's hard to armchair a blip .
It idles at 29 kpa and is efficient enough ( i suspect) that it don't move much kpa wise when blipped . Rpms go up and you might just be in an area that when data logging is decel.
Or you tried to correct decel with ve's and your blip hits that spot .
Low kpa idle , high efficient motors take some massaging .

Jim: I don't see any blip in that picture. Looks like the tail end of it with decel fuel showing. Kpa, rpm and MAP show no blip. Did I miss the actual DME file because all I see is a .gif. Just asking because my v rod will easily pull 50kpa on a hard blip and the 120 would do that or more, depending on how aggressive the blip is.
Ron

No I didn't see any  blip on that screenshot either  . I thought the same thing ,that it was just going to decel.
Your right most motors act just as you are describing .
Just something else to look at .
Lasers bike has defied all Logic for a while .

Quote from: strokerjlk on June 14, 2013, 02:03:28 PM

Quote from: rbabos on June 14, 2013, 12:48:37 PM

Quote from: strokerjlk on June 14, 2013, 10:28:47 AM

Quote from: redmtrckl on June 14, 2013, 09:43:05 AM

Quote from: rbabos on June 14, 2013, 07:21:03 AM
I made the mistake of dropping the timing too much in this area once in the 50-70 kpa. It was a turd on launch and while I'm not a blipper, most likely it would have exibitted the same as you described. Just something else to look at, if this area of timing has been changed. Failing all else, the accel table with a slight increase might cure it also.
Ron

Had similar with the T-max system on the 07 dyna. Raised the idle timing from about 6 or 8 deg best I can remember up to 16deg at 1024rpm and 20deg at the next step up to 1280rpm. Idles smoother and cooler and never any stumble.

Pretty sure he has 22 deg timing at idle . And his blip shows 22 deg.
I dont think timing tip in is a problem . Pretty sure laser has that down by now.
Some bikes hate to blip . You just have to watch it real time and make decisions .
It's hard to armchair a blip .
It idles at 29 kpa and is efficient enough ( i suspect) that it don't move much kpa wise when blipped . Rpms go up and you might just be in an area that when data logging is decel.
Or you tried to correct decel with ve's and your blip hits that spot .
Low kpa idle , high efficient motors take some massaging .

Jim: I don't see any blip in that picture. Looks like the tail end of it with decel fuel showing. Kpa, rpm and MAP show no blip. Did I miss the actual DME file because all I see is a .gif. Just asking because my v rod will easily pull 50kpa on a hard blip and the 120 would do that or more, depending on how aggressive the blip is.
Ron

No I didn't see any  blip on that screenshot either  . I thought the same thing ,that it was just going to decel.
Your right most motors act just as you are describing .
Just something else to look at .
Lasers bike has defied all Logic for a while .

FU Jim!! Lol You know it's the laserp tune!
It runs really well, I'm just a picky engineer. The added fuel helped. I did a rbabos garage brake vtune and found a couple lean cells in the 1250  30. 40 range. Pretty much problem is solved. Thanks for that.

Sucking on a beer and cigar at bike week right now. On iPhone armchair now. Once I get a chance, I can send more data for review. Map, screen shots etc.

Thanks so far!
Laser.

Laser,
FWIW, you can have a direct affect on the blip quality with the "accel enrichment" table. It works like an accelerator pump on a carb.

What I've picked up:
If you have a TBW bike try decreasing accel enrichment by 10+%.
If you have a cable bike with a big TB try increasing accel enrichment by 10+%.
One way should be better. Continue that direction until you are happy with the blippage.

For whatever reason(s) we didn't have much blip issues until the TBW bikes came out. As soon as you change cams blip-quality suffers
It took a while to figger was going on...too much fuel dumpage upon blippage.
Cut down dumpage and walla...insta-blip!
Just my experiences,
Bob

Quote from: FLTRI on June 14, 2013, 08:13:51 PM
Laser,
FWIW, you can have a direct affect on the blip quality with the "accel enrichment" table. It works like an accelerator pump on a carb.

What I've picked up:
If you have a TBW bike try decreasing accel enrichment by 10+%.
If you have a cable bike with a big TB try increasing accel enrichment by 10+%.
One way should be better. Continue that direction until you are happy with the blippage.

For whatever reason(s) we didn't have much blip issues until the TBW bikes came out. As soon as you change cams blip-quality suffers
It took a while to figger was going on...too much fuel dumpage upon blippage.
Cut down dumpage and walla...insta-blip!
Just my experiences,
Bob

Hey Bob, Thanks, I'll give it a shot. Ya, TBW on the 10 limited, the one I'm working on.
I may be a blipper in denial  , I don't use the blipper, unless I'm in a downshift decel to match the RPM with the lower gear. Just thought a blip vtune data may show me a low MAP, RPM data that may have had something to do with the stumble off idle. Pretty much have that knocked, thanks to Stroker and Rbabos...

I must admit though, the 117 does get a blip once in awhile for pure show That Borezilla sounds pretty nice  at 11.5.

Laser

Here's my current map. Jim, yes, I'm at 22 deg, my closed throttle spark too.
The only thing I can complain about is an occasional blip, when done aggressive (to get the rpm up to match the motor rpm when downshifting.

The gif I attached shows pictorially a few throttle blips, as the MAP shows the multiple peaks. The data shown at the time bar is pretty much at idle.

I've attached a mastertune file too, with some blips.

Laser

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

Quote from: laserp on June 15, 2013, 05:38:18 AM
Here's my current map. Jim, yes, I'm at 22 deg, my closed throttle spark too.
The only thing I can complain about is an occasional blip, when done aggressive (to get the rpm up to match the motor rpm when downshifting.

The gif I attached shows pictorially a few throttle blips, as the MAP shows the multiple peaks. The data shown at the time bar is pretty much at idle.

I've attached a mastertune file too, with some blips.

Laser

If you have a big puff of black smoke during the blip, that would indicate rich. No black puff, lean is likely the problem. Without exhaust extraction as with a dyno setup , DIYers might see this right away for tell tail clues. I'm sure you know all this but thought I'd add it for any noobies with the same issue.
Ron

Dang Laser, you must be bored, Marg throw you in the dog house?

Quote from: Durwood on June 15, 2013, 05:56:36 AM
Dang Laser, you must be bored, Marg throw you in the dog house?

Anal is the word bro... the 80-20 rule?, I'll spend the rest of my life working that 20%..

Quote from: laserp on June 15, 2013, 06:30:15 AM

Quote from: Durwood on June 15, 2013, 05:56:36 AM
Dang Laser, you must be bored, Marg throw you in the dog house?

Anal is the word bro... the 80-20 rule?, I'll spend the rest of my life working that 20%..

Everyone needs a hobby I guess

Quote from: laserp on June 15, 2013, 05:38:18 AM
Here's my current map. Jim, yes, I'm at 22 deg, my closed throttle spark too.
The only thing I can complain about is an occasional blip, when done aggressive (to get the rpm up to match the motor rpm when downshifting.

The gif I attached shows pictorially a few throttle blips, as the MAP shows the multiple peaks. The data shown at the time bar is pretty much at idle.

I've attached a mastertune file too, with some blips.

Laser

looks to me like your ve tables are a mess..??
if u look at them as a graph, they are all over the place....
'm not a pro, but done lots of vtunes and never seen one that fills the ve's like yours is??
burgie

laser,
The v-tune file you posted is for only about a minute and no vtune data was collected.
Maybe you inadvertently posted the wrong vtune data file?
Bob

Quote from: burgies08ultra on June 15, 2013, 11:32:26 AM

Quote from: laserp on June 15, 2013, 05:38:18 AM
Here's my current map. Jim, yes, I'm at 22 deg, my closed throttle spark too.
The only thing I can complain about is an occasional blip, when done aggressive (to get the rpm up to match the motor rpm when downshifting.

The gif I attached shows pictorially a few throttle blips, as the MAP shows the multiple peaks. The data shown at the time bar is pretty much at idle.

I've attached a mastertune file too, with some blips.

Laser

looks to me like your ve tables are a mess..??
if u look at them as a graph, they are all over the place....
'm not a pro, but done lots of vtunes and never seen one that fills the ve's like yours is??
burgie

Who are you?

Quote from: FLTRI on June 15, 2013, 12:10:27 PM
laser,
The v-tune file you posted is for only about a minute and no vtune data was collected.
Maybe you inadvertently posted the wrong vtune data file?
Bob

Chit. Wrong one. Thanks Bob. Ill go get the better file.
Laser

I look at your map and I see a cam off a tooth...............Might just be me but your map is strange....................
Front VE is way low compare to rear VE and everytime I have seen them that bad the front cam is 1 tooth off.

Quote from: Scotty on June 15, 2013, 02:45:21 PM
I look at your map and I see a cam off a tooth...Front VE is way low compare to rear VE ...

...or an intake leak can affect a cylinder's VEs similarly,
Bob

40 units of fuel from front to rear.. Quick comp test will tell you if the cam is off or not.. 

Wow! I had no idea it was that whacked out!  Ccps are 190 and 190.  I'm on the road for a week, guess I have some work to do when I get back.
I'm saying no way on the tooth... Been there, done that! Lightening don't strike twice in the same place... I hope. 
Intake leak? First thing ill check.
Thanks guys,
Laser