HarleyTechTalk

I've been swapping out all my fasteners with poilished stainless from Alloybotz. question is, do I use anti-sieze on everything to reduce the stainless / aluminum reaction? Will blue loctite serve the same purpose, to protect the surfaces from corrosion/galling. Which one do I use where and why? so Far I've done the rocker covers and cam chest cover using lots of anti-sieze, all over the bolt. Is that too much? I figure the purpose behind it is to stop the two metals from having contact, am I over doing it. Does anti-sieze have locking functionality like blue loctite, or is it just for metal protection with no locking charactaristics? As you can see, I am old and confused, where are my pills???

Quote from: Nooter99 on May 05, 2011, 06:46:02 PM
I've been swapping out all my fasteners with poilished stainless from Alloybotz. question is, do I use anti-sieze on everything to reduce the stainless / aluminum reaction? Will blue loctite serve the same purpose, to protect the surfaces from corrosion/galling. Which one do I use where and why? so Far I've done the rocker covers and cam chest cover using lots of anti-sieze, all over the bolt. Is that too much? I figure the purpose behind it is to stop the two metals from having contact, am I over doing it. Does anti-sieze have locking functionality like blue loctite, or is it just for metal protection with no locking charactaristics? As you can see, I am old and confused, where are my pills???

The two metals are fine unless they get wet, then electrolosis happens. In the thread area loctite will isolate and seal the threads as well. It's on the outer edges where the bigger problem of corrosion can happen should the surfaces remain wet for long periods, like sweating in a cold garage. There's no locking action with anti sieze, only lube. Not all fasteners need locking on these newer bikes. A light smear down the one side of the fastener is all you need. Get too much packed in the hole the hydraulic effect and the bottom of the hole can start breaking castings.
Ron

I like to lube all fasteners with krown rust control and torque to spec,only use loctite on specific bolts,that is compensator bolt,trany nuts,cam retension bolts ,I have hardly used loctite on anything and worked in the motorcycle industry for over twenty years with no problems, I think loctite is a band aid for improper torque ,it does have some good uses but its over used. It causes lots of bolt to be stripped ,especially those button allens ,try it you will like it , makes service nice and have yet to have things fall off ,there was a bike my boss had one time that every bolt needed loctite ,but it was a big stroker solid mount and would rattle your teeth in every gear ,more parts fell off that bike than any I can remember
but lube not loctite works for me

Quote from: hdbikedoc on May 05, 2011, 07:09:52 PM
I like to lube all fasteners with krown rust control and torque to spec,only use loctite on specific bolts,that is compensator bolt,trany nuts,cam retension bolts ,I have hardly used loctite on anything and worked in the motorcycle industry for over twenty years with no problems, I think loctite is a band aid for improper torque ,it does have some good uses but its over used. It causes lots of bolt to be stripped ,especially those button allens ,try it you will like it , makes service nice and have yet to have things fall off ,there was a bike my boss had one time that every bolt needed loctite ,but it was a big stroker solid mount and would rattle your teeth in every gear ,more parts fell off that bike than any I can remember
but lube not loctite works for me

I agree with you. Most of this loctite craze is a carry over from the old days of rigid mount no balancers and no rubber mount. I don't miss those days.
Ron

For stainless either 300, or 400 series fasteners, i would use high temp anti seize, Not locktite products,   a electroylsis  issue,?? some as well as some  gavalenic corrosion,  But the problem being, when these bolts are manufactured the they clean the the threads, either chemically  or ultrasonically . this means there is no lubricant on the threads, Combine that  with using in a different base metal  in this example  the harley engine is  usually a higher silicon based aluminium  either 4000  or 5000 series, for strength this created a thread galling lack of lubrication problem,  Some bike manufacturers use a cadmium plated fastener because of this ,  To  install a stainless bolt in the aluminum case with no lubricant or using just lock tight will ensure the threads will be damaged as it is being installed and  if the bolt is ever removed, threads will be damaged further  And  no, the  locktite is not a  sufficient lubricant  for stainless bolts, .  Nor is it intended to be used as a "Crutch" for different base metals  Proper use of the torque wrench is required,    Just use anti seize and use proper torq specs and you will be fine

Sounds like I'm on the right track then, so far I've only used anti-sieze. Although I may be over doing it a bit as far as amount goes. Whoever ends up doing my 95" build next winter will probably be scratching their head and wondering who the idiot was!

I like the alloyboltz kits and have used a dozen of them over many years with blue locktite. No issues with removal. I think as long as you have one or the other you will be ok. Mike

Nooter, I usually coat the threads with a thin layer of anti seize , all the way up the fastener, no globing.

A word of caution about torque , most values are with a dry fasteners unless otherwise stated, I try to stay at the lower torque value and some times split the difference, depends on what part your working on. But allways use the torque wrench.

I'm probably over stating it as usual! Not gobbing it on, just covering entire bolt then removing all excess, leaving each thread nicely coated all the way around. It'll be fine I'm sure, I always over think these things, my wife calls it "obsessive", I prefer "meticulous".

Quote from: rmc115 on May 06, 2011, 04:56:17 AM
I like the alloyboltz kits and have used a dozen of them over many years with blue locktite. No issues with removal. . Mike

I've been using loctite with stainless hardware for 25 years. Since 1976 I think I've used all of 3 heli-coils.LOL.

As in everything  in life there is a way to do things and then there is the correct way

You can also use Maalox and pledge on stainless bolts to keep them from galling. Save you some money.

I know maalox keeps me from "galling". 

Good tip ironbutt 

haa haa  or Vaseline

I know that stainless steel bolts and nuts are good looking on a bike. Personally, I don't like them. As mentioned above, they do tend to gall, especially if they are fine thread. They have their place, say in non-structural areas, like primary bolts and cap screws that hold covers on.

I wouldn't want to use them on places like rotors or anything that's high stress. But that's just my view of things. I would always prefer a hardened bolt with the proper characteristics in those areas.

One place where stainless steel is superior, in my opinion at least, is when used for spokes and nipples. I built up a set of wheels for my former Shovelhead using new hubs and rims. I got a set of stainless spokes and, once trued, I never had even one of them come loose in 25,000 miles until I sold the bike.

So, stainless is fine, but just not everywhere. 

Old Thread I know - but age old problem.  Stainless galling is a real problem, the bigger the diameter the more likely of cold-welding to occur.:  http://www.anzor.com.au/blog/the-gall-of-it-lubricating-threads/ but a good Nickel Anti Seize like Loctite 771 will prevent it no problems. http://www.anzor.com.au/chemical-products/lubricants-and-corrosion-inhibitors/nickel-antiseize/product

Stainless into aluminum I'll use anti-sieze every time.  Have seen too many Kury footpegs ruined by putting them together dry.  Oh, they may bolt down once or twice OK, but beyond that you can just about bet on them ripping the threads out of the aluminum.

I don't like stainless steel bolts. They are usually more trouble than they are worth. The galling problem wont go away and it's even worse when using stainless steel bolts in fine threads. I know people like them because of the looks and it's also a nice conversation piece. There's little advantage if you ever want to get them apart, however.

Sure, you can lather them up with various grades of Loctite and thread lubricants but basically, I've found them to be a PITA.

Stainless steel for spokes is a totally different matter. They are the best.

MONEL BOLTS DON'T GALL, BUT AREN'T BRIGHT FINISH AND HARD TO FIND.

Coming into this "THREAD" a bit late so decisions may have already been made.

For 11 years now have followed the advice given by Samuel, who had some significant input on these particular topics.

CLICK HERE:  X

CLICK HERE:  X

For any bolts needing blue loctite I use the Aviation Gasket Cement successfully, for bolts requiring Red loctitite I stick with that product as called for.

The suggestion of anti-sieze is a very good one.....and of course there are suggested places to use that product as well to keep annealing from occurring however the purpose of the "aviation gasket cement" is to keep bolts from loosening, so determining the objective should guide you into whether the choice should be anti-sieze or aviation gasket cement as the methodology of choice.

I do like stainless steel bolts and have replaced many of my bolts with them.....although doing it as a group package has not been something I have done.  But there is certainly a place for them on my bike as well.

Regards,

"Classic"

Marine outboards used in salt water are very susceptible to corrosion and sealants on threads are used to prevent it.  As mentioned, Aviation Gasket Sealant is one of them.

There are several types of stainless steel used to make fasteners.  300 series is a weaker material than the stock cad plated bolts.  A286 stainless is used in aircraft and can look like chrome if 'polished' correctly.

Quote from: Nooter99 on May 05, 2011, 06:46:02 PM
I've been swapping out all my fasteners with poilished stainless from Alloybotz.

Remember, the MoCo uses Grade 8 bolts in some places for a reason, so don't use anything less - and SS generally is softer.

One place is passenger footpegs, where I made the mistake of using a stainless bolt once when I installed a set of Kury adjustable aux pegs on my '07 RG.  At a gas stop 500 miles down the road the starboard assembly was missing, the bolt sheared off flush in the hole.  I found the bolt on the port side was cracked and ready to depart soon. Fortunately, the OL was not on that trip or she could have been hurt.

Pilgrim

Quote from: Pilgrim on July 21, 2013, 06:16:32 PM

Quote from: Nooter99 on May 05, 2011, 06:46:02 PM
I've been swapping out all my fasteners with poilished stainless from Alloybotz.

Remember, the MoCo uses Grade 8 bolts in some places for a reason, so don't use anything less - and SS generally is softer.

One place is passenger footpegs, where I made the mistake of using a stainless bolt once when I installed a set of Kury adjustable aux pegs on my '07 RG.  At a gas stop 500 miles down the road the starboard assembly was missing, the bolt sheared off flush in the hole.  I found the bolt on the port side was cracked and ready to depart soon. Fortunately, the OL was not on that trip or she could have been hurt.

Pilgrim

Stainless has its place but should never be used as a replacement for grade 8 bolts. The Moco spends lots of time determining the best fasteners for each area. Strength and durability are of the utmost importance since failures while underway on a motorcycle can be extremely dangerous.

I used to make lots of things for my bike out of stainless. I would still use grade 8 bolts to hold things on.

Quote from: Ultrashovel on July 21, 2013, 06:47:48 PM

Quote from: Pilgrim on July 21, 2013, 06:16:32 PM

Quote from: Nooter99 on May 05, 2011, 06:46:02 PM
I've been swapping out all my fasteners with poilished stainless from Alloybotz.

Remember, the MoCo uses Grade 8 bolts in some places for a reason, so don't use anything less - and SS generally is softer.

One place is passenger footpegs, where I made the mistake of using a stainless bolt once when I installed a set of Kury adjustable aux pegs on my '07 RG.  At a gas stop 500 miles down the road the starboard assembly was missing, the bolt sheared off flush in the hole.  I found the bolt on the port side was cracked and ready to depart soon. Fortunately, the OL was not on that trip or she could have been hurt.

Pilgrim

Stainless has its place but should never be used as a replacement for grade 8 bolts. The Moco spends lots of time determining the best fasteners for each area. Strength and durability are of the utmost importance since failures while underway on a motorcycle can be extremely dangerous.

I used to make lots of things for my bike out of stainless. I would still use grade 8 bolts to hold things on.

This is the biggest bunch of BS. There is really only a few places that grade 8 are needed.. For instance.. All cover bolts are grade 8 equivalent socket head cap screws.. The main reason for this is that they want you to torque the cover to the point it warps then you need to keep the torquing it tighter to crush the gasket more to account for the warp/gasket crush.. Anything that threads into aluminum doesn't need to be better than grade 5 tho grade 3 is probably acceptable.. Why? Aluminum has a tensile strength less than grade 3..  Why thread a grade 8 bolt into a grade 3 nut? 

I use standard grade 303 SS 3/8-nc cap screws  on Dyna trees.. The tensile strength of the stainless steel bolt is greater then the aluminum loop that holds the fork tube..  Never has one come loose or snap.  Brake rotors, pulley bolts and some may argue motor mount bolts are a good place for grade 8s..  Brake caliper Rods where a single point failure will let the caliper spin is another.

Anyone using anti-seize for anything other than a high temperature application doesn't have a clue as to what it should be used for.. Grease is better and a better water repellent.. I've never used anti-seize on a axle, always grease..

Pilgrim's bolt busting? Sorry man, you either got a cheap, defective bolt or it torqued to tight to start, past the tensile strength of the bolt. (probably not into aluminum  ).. Standard SS bolts don't have the tensile strength, equivalent of about a grade 3-5.. If anything they'll loosen under too much stress, not snap.. If they snap they were already torqued way past their tensile strength and you need to stop eating your wheaties.

I don't use antisieze on SS, I use blue LT.. Works as well and less of a mess.. Could probably use grease but it don't have any holding properties.. Then neither does anti-seize..

Max

Quote from: Max Headflow on July 21, 2013, 08:28:13 PM

Quote from: Ultrashovel on July 21, 2013, 06:47:48 PM

Quote from: Pilgrim on July 21, 2013, 06:16:32 PM

Quote from: Nooter99 on May 05, 2011, 06:46:02 PM
I've been swapping out all my fasteners with poilished stainless from Alloybotz.

Remember, the MoCo uses Grade 8 bolts in some places for a reason, so don't use anything less - and SS generally is softer.

One place is passenger footpegs, where I made the mistake of using a stainless bolt once when I installed a set of Kury adjustable aux pegs on my '07 RG.  At a gas stop 500 miles down the road the starboard assembly was missing, the bolt sheared off flush in the hole.  I found the bolt on the port side was cracked and ready to depart soon. Fortunately, the OL was not on that trip or she could have been hurt.

Pilgrim

Stainless has its place but should never be used as a replacement for grade 8 bolts. The Moco spends lots of time determining the best fasteners for each area. Strength and durability are of the utmost importance since failures while underway on a motorcycle can be extremely dangerous.

I used to make lots of things for my bike out of stainless. I would still use grade 8 bolts to hold things on.

This is the biggest bunch of BS. There is really only a few places that grade 8 are needed.. For instance.. All cover bolts are grade 8 equivalent socket head cap screws.. The main reason for this is that they want you to torque the cover to the point it warps then you need to keep the torquing it tighter to crush the gasket more to account for the warp/gasket crush.. Anything that threads into aluminum doesn't need to be better than grade 5 tho grade 3 is probably acceptable.. Why? Aluminum has a tensile strength less than grade 3..  Why thread a grade 8 bolt into a grade 3 nut? 

I use standard grade 303 SS 3/8-nc cap screws  on Dyna trees.. The tensile strength of the stainless steel bolt is greater then the aluminum loop that holds the fork tube..  Never has one come loose or snap.  Brake rotors, pulley bolts and some may argue motor mount bolts are a good place for grade 8s..  Brake caliper Rods where a single point failure will let the caliper spin is another.

Anyone using anti-seize for anything other than a high temperature application doesn't have a clue as to what it should be used for.. Grease is better and a better water repellent.. I've never used anti-seize on a axle, always grease..

Pilgrim's bolt busting? Sorry man, you either got a cheap, defective bolt or it torqued to tight to start, past the tensile strength of the bolt. (probably not into aluminum  ).. Standard SS bolts don't have the tensile strength, equivalent of about a grade 3-5.. If anything they'll loosen under too much stress, not snap.. If they snap they were already torqued way past their tensile strength and you need to stop eating your wheaties.

I don't use antisieze on SS, I use blue LT.. Works as well and less of a mess.. Could probably use grease but it don't have any holding properties.. Then neither does anti-seize..

Max

Gotta give Max a +1 there, as I agree in total. Will also add that Having SS fasteners "gall" in a HD application would be very rare, as nearly every welded nut and or tapped hole you thread them into, is either regular old carbon steel, or aluminum. Neither of which will gall with a SS bolt/screw. In order for a SS fastener to truly gall, it needs to be threaded into another SS fastener(and generally one that is also of the same grade of SS). The easiest way to prevent galling, is to thread the SS fastener into a different material, which is exactly what you will do nearly anywhere on a Harley, that you would thread one into. Corrosion is another matter, but also easy to prevent/slow down. Put some good old blue locktite on the threads(or red if required). This could be just as bad as an oil thread!

Jeff