HarleyTechTalk

I worked on a motorcycle today, clutch adjustment was varying all over the place.  Cable slack would go from less than zero  to lever against the grip without full disengagement. Cool clutch adjustments would be horrible for hot clutch and vise versa.   


Took it all apart.  Only thing I found was that some of the steel plates were oriented backwards (rounded edges rearward instead of forward).


I wonder if any techs have see this before.  Doesn't make much sense to me.  What difference does the orientation of the plates make?  The sides appear absolutely the same except for the slightly rounded edges (and you have to look very closely and feel of them to tell which side is rounded.)

You might want to take a look at the through out bearing assy and the ramps.

i have seen a couple of bike do the same thing and found the clutch hub nut was loose so the clutch was moving on the main shaft screwing up the adjustment. Or a missing brg. in the ball and ramp. hope you get it Nick

I like them all the same direction.  Also check for notches of goofing where the friction plates fit into the basket and the plates on the hub.  Also a good idea to lube the clutch cable really well.

Quote from: Ohio HD on October 08, 2013, 06:52:08 PM
You might want to take a look at the through out bearing assy and the ramps.

Thanks.  That's my next step if proper orientation of the steel plates doesn't help.


UPDATE:
Took the bike out for a test run after reassembly and adjustment.  All I had done is inspect and re-assemble with the steel plates oriented as stated in the shop manual.  No other new parts or changes.   It's hard to believe that the steel plates have a front and a back; and orientation matters.  But that seems to be the case.


One has to look carefully and feel of the edges to see any difference between one side and the other.  It just doesn't appear possible that it makes a difference.  But apparently it does.  The clutch adjustment stayed fairly stable.  In normal riding, it didn't move enough to tell when warmed up.  So I went to my favorite parking lot and did a series of really tight figure 8's, circles, and U-turns.  (Clutch is fighting the brake in these tight slow-speed maneuvers and really can get heated up).   My Fluke DT measured almost 400 degrees when pointed at the black inner primary.  (this is a typical primary case temperature during practice sessions)

When really hot, there was a some friction zone displacement, about 1/4" measured at the clutch lever ball tip.  When cooled back down after the abuse, the adjustment went right back down to normal warm engine setting. 


This is almost intriguing enough to disassemble, reverse some of the steel plates, and see if the symptoms come back


Ken

Very interesting as a friend of mine has a new Ultra and he has had this problem since virtually brand new and the techs have had no luck fixing it.

Ken,  I inspected 2 stock clutch packs last night. I know they are in the correct order as I origionally removed them myself during the clutch upgrades and in removing them I taped the pack together to keep it all in order.  Well as you say "One has to look carefully and feel of the edges to see any difference between one side and the other." and both of these packs have the direction of the steels mixed.  Most of the rounded edges were outboard but 3 or 4 were inboard and they weren't all together.  I don't see that it would really matter as the fibre plate material on just one side would protrude more than the non rounded edge of the steel would.  I guess if the steels were reversed/mixed in a well work clutch there could be the possibility of the non rounded edge of a steel picking up on a fibre but would expect the fibre to wear from that edge quickly.  Post up your further findings as you come across them. 

Stamped metal parts always seem to have something silly about them, just look at the stamped HD Brake Discs.

 

This one is hilarious.. As long an the plates are flat it makes no difference which at they go in.. There might be an issue if the inner hub is severely notched but I doubt it's the case.   The issue is that the plates need to be flat.. I had to rebuild a BDL 3 inch open primary a few years ago.. New inner hub, all new plates, new pins in the outer hub.. clutch dragged real bad.. Turned out that BDL steels were bent during the stamping process.. replace them all (no attention to way the rounded edges are and the clutch worked fine for then next 18K (about what I got on it)..

Max
 

Quote from: Max Headflow on October 11, 2013, 08:21:28 PM


This one is hilarious.. As long an the plates are flat it makes no difference which at they go in.. There might be an issue if the inner hub is severely notched but I doubt it's the case.   The issue is that the plates need to be flat.. I had to rebuild a BDL 3 inch open primary a few years ago.. New inner hub, all new plates, new pins in the outer hub.. clutch dragged real bad.. Turned out that BDL steels were bent during the stamping process.. replace them all (no attention to way the rounded edges are and the clutch worked fine for then next 18K (about what I got on it)..

Max

Sounds reasonable to me, Max.  But then why do they specify the orientation of the steel plates in the shop manual.   They could have saved the ink.


I'm actually losing sleep over this one.  Can't imagine why the orientation matters.  The "rounded edges" don't come anywhere near the friction surfaces.  Oil circulation? 


So far, after rebuilding the clutch with exact same parts and even the same oil caught and put back in, the clutch is holding its adjustment perfectly.  I even played in the cones at a police rodeo practice session today and the friction zone didn't change. 


I'm dumbfounded.

Quote from: Ken R on October 11, 2013, 08:40:53 PM

Quote from: Max Headflow on October 11, 2013, 08:21:28 PM


This one is hilarious.. As long an the plates are flat it makes no difference which at they go in.. There might be an issue if the inner hub is severely notched but I doubt it's the case.   The issue is that the plates need to be flat.. I had to rebuild a BDL 3 inch open primary a few years ago.. New inner hub, all new plates, new pins in the outer hub.. clutch dragged real bad.. Turned out that BDL steels were bent during the stamping process.. replace them all (no attention to way the rounded edges are and the clutch worked fine for then next 18K (about what I got on it)..

Max

Sounds reasonable to me, Max.  But then why do they specify the orientation of the steel plates in the shop manual.   They could have saved the ink.


I'm actually losing sleep over this one.  Can't imagine why the orientation matters.  The "rounded edges" don't come anywhere near the friction surfaces.  Oil circulation? 


So far, after rebuilding the clutch with exact same parts and even the same oil caught and put back in, the clutch is holding its adjustment perfectly.  I even played in the cones at a police rodeo practice session today and the friction zone didn't change. 


I'm dumbfounded.

Don't know I looked at an 07 and 06 they say pretty much the same thing..

[attach=0]

They don't say anything about the steels..

I suspect that the outer cable parts wasn't seated correctly or there was something wrong with the release balls.. Or is possible that burrs on the inner hub were causing the plates to hang up??

No sure what rearward and forward mean in the original post but it seems to me that if the sharp edges were outward there would be less chance of the clutch hanging up on release..

Max



[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

I'll put a vernier on a pack later to see exactly where the shape edge lines up.

Max I think Kens rearward and forward relates to the direction as he sits in front of the clutch during assembly.  Forward would be out, rearward would be in.

 

Looks like a new thing.. Like a said not in the 07..

Max

Quote from: FSG on October 11, 2013, 09:11:26 PM
I'll put a vernier on a pack later to see exactly where the shape edge lines up.

Max I think Kens rearward and forward relates to the direction as he sits in front of the clutch during assembly.  Forward would be out, rearward would be in.

Sorry, I meant outward versus inward. 


Ken

Max, the new assembly instructions appeared in the '08 SM's.  Maybe the quality(!) of the stamped steels was leaving a lot to be desired and they found a work around.

Quote from: FSG on October 11, 2013, 09:36:21 PM
Max, the new assembly instructions appeared in the '08 SM's.  Maybe the quality(!) of the stamped steels was leaving a lot to be desired and they found a work around.

Well, not sure you can teach an old dog new tricks but you can certainly slap him upside the head.. 

Max

Flat is flat but something is happening. I think it was a ball and ramp thing that fixed itself.

Stock Steels have an OD of 151mm

Stock Frictions measure  149mm outside edge of a pad to the outside edge of the opposite pad

so as long as there is pad material there is no way for the steels sharp outside edge to touch anything.   

Quote from: BAKON on October 11, 2013, 10:10:21 PM
Flat is flat but something is happening. I think it was a ball and ramp thing that fixed itself.

  been there done that

I have dealt with this enough to just do it the right way.  I had a couple of drag racing buddies that ran kows and they always had the same experience.  I don't believe that it has anything to do with the friction material but the slots that the plates fit into. 

Could it be that always installing the steel plates with the rounded edges oriented outwards simply makes a consistent wear pattern in the slots?  Putting them in at random causes binding in the wear patterns? 


Ken

Quote from: BAKON on October 11, 2013, 10:10:21 PM
Flat is flat but something is happening. I think it was a ball and ramp thing that fixed itself.

Just out of curiosity, today I'm going to lay my motor over onto it's left side and remove the transmission cover and check the ball and ramps.  (it's easier and quicker that way, not nearly as messy)


Ken

Quote from: Ken R on October 12, 2013, 07:54:53 AM

Quote from: BAKON on October 11, 2013, 10:10:21 PM
Flat is flat but something is happening. I think it was a ball and ramp thing that fixed itself.

Just out of curiosity, today I'm going to lay my motor over onto it's left side and remove the transmission cover and check the ball and ramps.  (it's easier and quicker that way, not nearly as messy)

I hope that is a joke remark.  Wheels on a 2x6 and leaning on the stand works.


Ken

Quote from: Ken R on October 12, 2013, 07:54:53 AM

Quote from: BAKON on October 11, 2013, 10:10:21 PM
Flat is flat but something is happening. I think it was a ball and ramp thing that fixed itself.

Just out of curiosity, today I'm going to lay my motor over onto it's left side and remove the transmission cover and check the ball and ramps.  (it's easier and quicker that way, not nearly as messy)

Ken

I wouldn't bother if the clutch seems to be working fine...

Quote from: joe_lyons50023 on October 12, 2013, 06:03:58 AM
I have dealt with this enough to just do it the right way.  I had a couple of drag racing buddies that ran kows and they always had the same experience.  I don't believe that it has anything to do with the friction material but the slots that the plates fit into. 

I've seen issues on a few clutch where notches are worn in either the inner or outer hub that caused excessive drag or grabbyness....  BDL and old pan clutches had pins that would wear and cause this..  Splined and slotted clutches too.. The groves tend to be pretty deep when this occurs..  I guess that the newer clutches could have some issue if the plate fit was tight enough.  I could see where a new performance clutch would show this and I guess that HD could have set the tolerances up that some clutches would have issues.. I guess I'll have to start keeping an eye on this..

Max

Ken,

If you do that,,,,,You might just as well replace that worn cable and housing for New

signed....BUBBIE

Quote from: BUBBIE on October 12, 2013, 08:30:22 AM
Ken,

If you do that,,,,,You might just as well replace that worn cable and housing for New

signed....BUBBIE

I think I may have failed to mention that this is a 2013 Limited with a new Barnett High Efficiency cable installed about 5 months ago.  8,900 miles on the motorcycle since new in late May.  7,000 miles since installing new handlebars and clutch cable.