HarleyTechTalk

Hi,
I have never seen E85 mentioned on any v-twin board on the net.
It has caught on big time for tuning turbo/supercharged cars and trucks,
but this fuel seems to be unknown to us HD riders.

That's why I am writing this post, a bit long, but there is a lot to say on this subject.

Some facts on E85;
E85 is a mix of 85% Ethanol (not to be mixed up with Methanol) and 15% gas.

E85 need approx 35% richer mixture

E85 has 104 octane, = race fuel at the pump, cheap!

Why use E85 then?
Reduce heat;
E85 needs 35% richer mixture by fuel volume.
This extra fuel uses a lot of heat to evaporate, i.e cooling the engine from the inside.

Higher Tq than gas;
The combustion chemistry favors low rpm Tq compared to gas. (no other changes but fuel)
It is also possible to use what ever ignition timing you want, no pinging (104 octane).

More Hp than gas.
As above, but you can build an engine with very high comp and have perfect drivabillity.
By increasing the comp by for example 2 whole points, an unexplored world is waiting for us.

Soot free combustion.
No soot to bind rings or causing hot spots in on the piston or in the combustion chamber.


Why stay away from E85?

Shorter range, the fuel economy will get worse by aprox 30%.

There is a net rumour saying that E85 will ruin your fuel system.

For injected bikes I don't believe it.
I have run my 04 Tahoe converted to E85 for 61 000 miles now, no ill effects what so ever.
(Remember we are NOT talking about Methanol, witch is totally a different thing...)

Hard to get.
Well if so, don't do it.

Hard cold starts;
True, but not at bike riding temps.
This is a concern for cars, driven all year in Scandinavia and the northen states and Canada.

How to do the conversion;
The easiest way is to make the ECM believe that the injector is 35% smaller than it actually is.
(Real injector size X 0.65 = new injector size to be programed to the ECM)
It is important that we are using an injector big enough. Remember we are going to flow 35% more fuel!
By doing this the ECM will go about it's business as usual, not knowing that we are using a different fuel,
and injecting 35% more of same fuel.


I just came back from my first trip since I converted my Ultra 09, results are remarkable.
Just what I expected after using this fuel for 61 000 miles in my truck.
(For a stage one bike, the stock injectors are OK. )

//

The problem, as I see it, is this is such a very different tune, than with gasoline or even E10.

Touring riders will not be able to find this fuel readily available in the US.  Top Tier sellers do not offer it, only second tier.  One can hunt down E85 in larger cities, but.............  how does THAT help if you have 1/4 tank of gas left while in West Virginia or Tennessee?  Finding ANY premium blend is getting harder and harder to find out in the country.  The costs of continual EPA upgrades are making smaller sellers abandon premium all together.  E85?  Forget it, with the small stations.

Most bio-fuels in US are E10 blends.

Europe may be different on these things.

I think anything made after... say 2000 should be 'safe' for sure.  All of those 'flex/fuel' stickers on the backs of vehicles?  THAT is for E85.  I would think our bikes would be the same as far as what rubber components are used, but???  A 'flex/fuel' vehicle can detect the differences in the fuel and adjust ECM accordingly.  Bike cannot.

Might be fun to play with on a bar hopper.

I live in NJ and rarely see E85....However, I often see it in PA and NY...Fuel economy is noticeably worse...

the closest relative a harley motor has is briggs and stratton....we ran them for 90 years with carburetors and bad tunes, and they still went a lot of miles...now everyone on the internet thinks you have to have a PERFECT tune to run them...i call BS

alcohol is used in racing, very successfully i must add

obsessive compulsive disorder is an illness which affects millions of folks

Plus you would be looking for hard to find fuel every 100 miles........
I could see using it for race applications, maybe.
JMO,
Mike

I am fully aware of the fact that E85 is only available in some locations in the US.

Obviously, of you cant get E85, don't do the conversion!

But if you have E85 in your city, and are tuning for/building a bar hopper,
E85 is a superior high performance fuel.

The tune will be the same gas VS E85, except the injector tweak i mentioned above.
MBT timing is the same for gas and E85.

You can have two maps in your computer, one for gas and one for E85.
If going on a trip where E85 is unpractical/impossible, spend 5 min (max) and load the appropriate map.

Well lets count the ways..
1.  30+% richer mixture and HD does not have a way to be able to switch back to standard fuel when needed.
2.  Build an engine to run on 104 octane and you have lots of problems when you put in 92 octane. If you leave the engine compression low for 92 octane than you are wasting burn efficency on E85. Not enough compression.
3. HD doesnt have a way to switch timing curves and emission settings for using E85 and Gasoline.
4. The exhaust system on a HD isnt stainless steel and will corrode much more easily than gasoline fuel.
5. E85 does not lend itself to long term storage in a gas tank. Holds too much H2O condensation and can cause freezing if you park the bike all winter.
6. No one sells E85 in Washington.. I dont know of an outlet in Oregon or Idaho or Montana either. Not to say there isnt just one but who would ever know where to gas up. You would run out long before you found a station.
7. Use LP gas instead. You can get it easier than E85 by 100 times..
8. Put an E85 only sticker on your tank and let people think you are greener than they are.

They've done it already at Black Hills H-D. Here's the link...

http://www.rapidcityjournal.com/news/local/article_54531e3c-ab0a-5103-bf48-371e685235f3.html

I'll pass.

Quote from: ultraswede on June 25, 2010, 11:21:49 AM
You can have two maps in your computer, one for gas and one for E85.
If going on a trip where E85 is unpractical/impossible, spend 5 min (max) and load the appropriate map.

What about the transition when you have varying levels of fuel remaining when you make the switch to the other fuel?

When you do "((9x85)+(14.7x15))/100" you get 9.86 AFR stoich for E85.  This ain't exact because the AFR is by mass of fuel, not volume, and alcohol isn't exactly the same mass as gasoline.  Anyway, "9.86/14.7" is 0.670, so maybe your 0.65 is close enough.

Taking the same 0.670 factor against 42 mpg nets 28 mpg.

If you had proper compression for the fuel, I'm sure that last factor wouldn't stand and you'd be at least in the low 30s for mileage so you could go nominally 180 miles before needing 5.5 gallons.  150 miles at 28 mpg.

You're leaving a lot on the table running E85 on gasoline compression, right?

How much is E85 compared to gasoline, even E10 (which is up to 10% ethanol, though usually a little less) and how does it equate to $/mile in comparison for you?

Just my $.02 worth.
I'd rather run almost pure ethanol with a little bit of water left in it than E85 with 15% gasoline. Gas will cause separation of the ethanol mixture if any water is present. The only reason to mix gasoline with alcohol is to denature it so its none drinkable.

Re MPG, the reduction in MPG is approx 30%, even though the mixture is
richer than 30%.
The reason for that, is that ethanol create more
work for a the same amount of energy in the combustion.

There is a lot of water created in combustion of ethanol,
more so then gas combustion.
Steam expand a lot, creating more work on the piston than
the same combustion gases from gasoline.

This is the reason the drop in fuel economy is not as great as the
difference in stoich; 14,7 VS 9,6.

The price of E85 is of no concern, I guess it will always be cheaper to buy than race gas.
It does the same job as race gas, and some more.

 
  I live in Brazil, and here Ethanol is used for vehicles since mid 80s, even our gas have 25% of ethanol mixed on it, here Ethanol is sold in every gas station. Personaly I think that flex fuel vehicles are a little of a high compression gas with a timing table to retarded, and a to soft compression for ethanol, so it doesn't run that good and have poor fuel economy.
  I honestly think that a hopped up harley engine runing plain ethanol can be set with 13 to 14 to 1 in compression (here we have cars that run this). The thing I'd care the most is for fuel line corrosion. And yes, in the future I plan to run ethanol and turbocharge my bike, I think a 103 with 10,5:1 static with a turbo will get a lot of power.

Gabriel

Quote from: ultraswede on June 25, 2010, 08:37:01 AM
Hi,
I have never seen E85 mentioned on any v-twin board on the net.
It has caught on big time for tuning turbo/supercharged cars and trucks,
but this fuel seems to be unknown to us HD riders.

That's why I am writing this post, a bit long, but there is a lot to say on this subject.

Some facts on E85;
E85 is a mix of 85% Ethanol (not to be mixed up with Methanol) and 15% gas.

E85 need approx 35% richer mixture

E85 has 104 octane, = race fuel at the pump, cheap!

Why use E85 then?
Reduce heat;
E85 needs 35% richer mixture by fuel volume.
This extra fuel uses a lot of heat to evaporate, i.e cooling the engine from the inside.

Higher Tq than gas;
The combustion chemistry favors low rpm Tq compared to gas. (no other changes but fuel)
It is also possible to use what ever ignition timing you want, no pinging (104 octane).

More Hp than gas.
As above, but you can build an engine with very high comp and have perfect drivabillity.
By increasing the comp by for example 2 whole points, an unexplored world is waiting for us.

Soot free combustion.
No soot to bind rings or causing hot spots in on the piston or in the combustion chamber.


Why stay away from E85?

Shorter range, the fuel economy will get worse by aprox 30%.

There is a net rumour saying that E85 will ruin your fuel system.

For injected bikes I don't believe it.
I have run my 04 Tahoe converted to E85 for 61 000 miles now, no ill effects what so ever.
(Remember we are NOT talking about Methanol, witch is totally a different thing...)

Hard to get.
Well if so, don't do it.

Hard cold starts;
True, but not at bike riding temps.
This is a concern for cars, driven all year in Scandinavia and the northen states and Canada.

How to do the conversion;
The easiest way is to make the ECM believe that the injector is 35% smaller than it actually is.
(Real injector size X 0.65 = new injector size to be programed to the ECM)
It is important that we are using an injector big enough. Remember we are going to flow 35% more fuel!
By doing this the ECM will go about it's business as usual, not knowing that we are using a different fuel,
and injecting 35% more of same fuel.


I just came back from my first trip since I converted my Ultra 09, results are remarkable.
Just what I expected after using this fuel for 61 000 miles in my truck.
(For a stage one bike, the stock injectors are OK. )

//

Did you use a hotter spark plug ?

Good question Jim. I'd lean towards a colder plug myself, first, just to see if it fouled.
They say the combustion is a lot cleaner and the reason for the hotter plug is to "self clean" itself.

I bet it gets tricky when you start getting leaky guides that need a hotter plug but then they get so hot it pre-ignites the charge.  Less room for error so engines have to be in tip top condition always.

The car guys tend to use a hotter plug .
If for nothing else , cold starts .  Not very many guys doing a Harley . So I am curious .
I have 2 ranges colder right now . And it's starting ok , but it's fat .

Something from yellow bullet forums .
Interesting read .

Re: E-85 Facts & Myths
Quote:
Originally Posted by yeti 
A colder plug won't change the operating temperature of the engine. The plug itself operates at a lower temperature of the ceramic tip and center electrode. It could lower engine temperature if there had been pre-ignition with the hotter plug and the colder plug eliminated the pre-ignition. Pre-ignition is the same as advancing the spark timing. A hot spot, plug electrode or ??, causes the combustion to begin before the spark occurs and once it starts it will occur earlier with each cycle, up to as much as 90° or more.
this is very true and very normal on GASOLINE, however ethanol burns very cold in the combustion chamber and unless its run lean the ethanol can and will in effect cool the combustion chamber allowing and often requiring the use of a hotter plug.

on a dyno we started and ran a motor on gasoline with a -9 plug, we then flushed the system and switched to E85 but forgot to change the plugs...the engine would NOT fire.
we made the plug change to the -7 and the engine idled better than it did previously on gasoline.

power was up and no signs of detonation,

we could have leaned the fuel curve down to work with the -9 plugs, but the power levels would have suffered as well..

fuel is power, and you need the correct spark to light it.

Like a lot of us I heard all the bad mouthing of E 85 and how it would destroy Harleys etc.  Then I bought a 2014 Silverado pickup.  It will run on E 85.  The new direct injected 5.3 liter or about 325 c.i. motor runs 11:1 compression and is rated at 355 h.p. and 383 ft. lbs torque on gasoline.  On E 85 it's rated at 380 h.p. ad 416 ft. lb. torque.  Chevy says to run it nearly out of gas before switching fuels as the ECM will read detonation and switch to the appropriate map.  This E 85 isn't as bad as some would have us believe.

I have several vehicles currently on e85 including my busa, correctly set up, its the best bang for the buck, I also have a twin turbo ls motor going together, I will boost it 10-12lbs with a intercooler and it won't detonate, the downfall to e85 is the availability at parts of the country, I wouldn't dare take anything across country on e85.

What about pricing???

Quote from: gsxrboy96 on February 26, 2014, 09:56:42 AM
I have several vehicles currently on e85 including my busa, correctly set up, its the best bang for the buck, I also have a twin turbo ls motor going together, I will boost it 10-12lbs with a intercooler and it won't detonate, the downfall to e85 is the availability at parts of the country, I wouldn't dare take anything across country on e85.

It can be done with power vision, tune it with both E-10 and E-85, swap maps in a flash when needed.

I like it 

Several ways to tune it .
With power vision you could do as Durwood suggested . Even add a couple more open loop maps.
like 1 gal e10 and 4 gal e85 ( 5 gal tank in my case)
And 1 gal e 85 4 gal e 10
Couple closed loop maps ( like ultraswede). Who cares if it goes a little lean .
It's not as big of a concern , as it is with e 10 . It's still going to run cool.

If you run it to almost empty, I think two would be sufficient  ... On E85 when that light comes on you better be looking for a station...

I've seen great results with E-85 in the automotive field, with our turbocharged cars. A good friend of mine is now making just over 1k-Hp with it. We've also seen E-85 labeled pumps actually pump anywhere from E-70 to E-90, while checking it right out the tank at the station.

I will be experimenting with E-85 in my current H-D build as soon as it's together sometime later this year. I am using a PowerVision and will option between 93-octane, VP C-16, and E-85...

K.

Quote from: NCTURBOS on February 27, 2014, 06:17:54 AM
I've seen great results with E-85 in the automotive field, with our turbocharged cars. A good friend of mine is now making just over 1k-Hp with it. We've also seen E-85 labeled pumps actually pump anywhere from E-70 to E-90, while checking it right out the tank at the station.

I will be experimenting with E-85 in my current H-D build as soon as it's together sometime later this year. I am using a PowerVision and will option between 93-octane, VP C-16, and E-85...

K.

Looking forward to your results .
I will be doing e 85 and nitrous  , on my EFI bagger .
Running C 12 in my carb bike now , going to c16 when my supplier gets it in .
You got me thinking now . Might have to try a little in the bagger .
The guys I talked to said they didn't see any more power with e 85 over c 16 . Just runs cooler .
E 98 was worth 2 tenths over c16 . These are N/A motors .
What did you see ? I imagine the boosted motor really likes the cooler temps .

Swede where you at ? Looking for a update .