HarleyTechTalk

                                  Had my bike was dynoed the other day I was surprised to see the afr reading on the sheet was completely different
to what I set it at wot on the thunder max ( 12.4) . the dyno guy said the fuel was good, but I don't understand and your help would be appreciated.

Possibly didn't collect enough data at lower rpms and the data it did get above that was either not enough or not correct.

SO your saying he rushed it?

So you had your thundermax tuned by a tuner?  Hmm.  Did you speak with him about the 14/1 area at the beginning?  At the same time there is not any big rough spots

No he just ran it up for me to see how it  went , the tune up is mine something I play with as a interest. some of the tuners around hear leave little to be desired. . when I asked him about the fuel he said it fine don't touch it. when I had  a good chance to look at it , it was nothing like the settings on my tmax and the only place that you would find 14.1 is under 35% throttle at 2500 rpm .at 2500 rpm wot its set at 12.4.

Quote from: To The Max on January 21, 2015, 04:18:01 AM
No he just ran it up for me to see how it  went , the tune up is mine something I play with as a interest. some of the tuners around hear leave little to be desired. what do you think mate.

so the dyno guy only ran the bike to give you a read out?  if that's so, the explantion on the afr not being flat is:

Quote from: joe_lyons on January 20, 2015, 06:09:16 AM
Possibly didn't collect enough data at lower rpms and the data it did get above that was either not enough or not correct.

insert "You" in front of the above statement. The other possible explanation is you didn't apply enough offset corrections to bring the baseline to a range that the autotune could correct to the sampled afr. 

Quote from: mayor on January 21, 2015, 04:28:40 AM

Quote from: To The Max on January 21, 2015, 04:18:01 AM
No he just ran it up for me to see how it  went , the tune up is mine something I play with as a interest. some of the tuners around hear leave little to be desired. what do you think mate.

so the dyno guy only ran the bike to give you a read out?  if that's so, the explantion on the afr not being flat is:

Quote from: joe_lyons on January 20, 2015, 06:09:16 AM
Possibly didn't collect enough data at lower rpms and the data it did get above that was either not enough or not correct.

insert "You" in front of the above statement. The other possible explanation is you didn't apply enough offset corrections to bring the baseline to a range that the autotune could correct to the sampled afr.

If I understand you correctly, your saying the auto tune  wasn't finished doing its job ?

Yep

The auto tune health check told me it was nearly as good as it gets way before it had it dynoed

I know right.

I'm being a little bit facetious but at the same time same most auto tuner set ups don't live up to their claim to fame

Quote from: joe_lyons on January 21, 2015, 06:22:30 AM
I'm being a little bit facetious but at the same time same most auto tuner set ups don't live up to their claim to fame

No chit.
Ron

Quote from: joe_lyons on January 21, 2015, 06:22:30 AM
I'm being a little bit facetious but at the same time same most auto tuner set ups don't live up to their claim to fame

Very late at night here im a little tired.so that being said whats the best thing to do ?

Collect a lot more data at the hundred percent throttle area.  I suggest Top Gear roll ons from 2000 rpm to about 4000 and then shift gears and go out the rest of the rpm.   I can't even guarantee that the dyno guy got a good signal to sample air fuel.

Was hoping the difference wasn't the tmax but more than that I was hoping it wasn't something I had missed in the program .the bike runs well most everyware. I might have the use of a private dyno and i can compare. thanks again and I will let you know what I find. Max

By the way that tune has done a lot of ks (miles to you ) and should have been close by now the fact that it may not be even close worries me

Quote from: To The Max on January 21, 2015, 05:51:33 AM
The auto tune health check told me it was nearly as good as it gets way before it had it dynoed

you need to be careful on how you are interpreting this information.  The health check is just telling you how close the areas where that it has accumulated readings.  If you never collected data for a particular area, then it doesn't have any way to know that the base map settings are off there so the health report isn't going to flag a problem.  How many samples points did you collect in the front and rear cylinders according to the control center prior to running on the dyno?  did you apply the learned offsets to the base map? 

The system can work well for wide open, but you also have to be quite deliberate on how you collect data.  Here's some results that I was able to get at wide open using the Tmax system:
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,44043.msg457989.html#msg457989

Quote from: mayor on January 21, 2015, 04:07:23 PM

Quote from: To The Max on January 21, 2015, 05:51:33 AM
The auto tune health check told me it was nearly as good as it gets way before it had it dynoed

you need to be careful on how you are interpreting this information.  The health check is just telling you how close the areas where that it has accumulated readings.  If you never collected data for a particular area, then it doesn't have any way to know that the base map settings are off there so the health report isn't going to flag a problem.  How many samples points did you collect in the front and rear cylinders according to the control center prior to running on the dyno?  did you apply the learned offsets to the base map? 

The system can work well for wide open, but you also have to be quite deliberate on how you collect data.  Here's some results that I was able to get at wide open using the Tmax system:
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,44043.msg457989.html#msg457989

Yes i have auto tuned this map more than a few times in the last 4 or 5 thousand miles  is that what your refering to. I would have thought that at 12.4  there might be a little black fuel coming from the exhaust at WOT, but none to speak of .

Quote from: To The Max on January 22, 2015, 02:05:36 AM
Yes i have auto tuned this map more than a few times in the last 4 or 5 thousand miles  is that what your refering to.

applying the learned offsets (automapping) is part of what I was referring too, but the other part was regarding how much data was collected prior to automapping. 

The 12.4 setting doesn't always relate to 12.4 when sampled on a dyno.  I've seen anywhere from almost exact match to 1/2 an afr leaner reading.  The following comments doesn't take into account the quality of the sampling-  In looking at your sampled afr, I would suspect that the areas that are much leaner than desired are areas that you collected very little data.  The Tmax is throttle position based, so if you only twist the wrist to accelerate at a particular rpm but never actually hit the maximum wide open throttle position then the fuel supply will be based on the base map settings. This could result in richer or leaner than desired readings when afr is sampled on a dyno.  Take the 3.3k area of the dyno sheet, this area was sampling much leaner than expected.  How well populated was the fuel offsets in that area of your map? were there fuel offsets collected there during the automapping data collection?  A well developed map should have fuel offset readings over just about the entire throttle position range at that rpm. 

I don't have the software installed on my computer anymore, but I don't think it changed much.  Here's an older screen shot I had of what I'm describing above:



Notice all the green boxes at this RPM chart?  The very last point data collection point to the left of the above has a fuel offset point that was indicating that the fuel needed to be richened up by 10% to hit the desired.  This particular map would have sampled lean if the first time the autotune module sampled that particular point was on the dyno. 

Yes I have seen the learned off sets  and I do ride around like a maniac twisting the throttle  trying to hit the points of reference and you maybe right on the money, but gee after all that riding and twisting I thought it might be just a little closer. I think I  might put it on the dyno  AS WAS SUGGESTED  and do a little testing. and by the way that was a   very good explanation and I appreciate the effort you and all the guys here put in and I wll let you know how I go.Max

Quote from: To The Max on January 22, 2015, 02:59:18 PM
Yes I have seen the learned off sets  and I do ride around like a maniac twisting the throttle  trying to hit the points of reference and you maybe right on the money, but gee after all that riding and twisting I thought it might be just a little closer. I think I  might put it on the dyno  AS WAS SUGGESTED  and do a little testing. and by the way that was a   very good explanation and I appreciate the effort you and all the guys here put in and I wll let you know how I go.Max

You can also blend the offsets if there is a pattern for surrounding those unhit areas then save them for the next run.
Ron

Quote from: rbabos on January 23, 2015, 06:05:10 AM

Quote from: To The Max on January 22, 2015, 02:59:18 PM
You can also blend the offsets if there is a pattern for surrounding those unhit areas then save them for the next run.
Ron

Are you saying that I can go to the front and rear flow charts and richen or lean them manuely save the changes and then dyno to see the outcome

Quote from: To The Max on January 23, 2015, 04:00:51 PM

Quote from: rbabos on January 23, 2015, 06:05:10 AM

Quote from: To The Max on January 22, 2015, 02:59:18 PM
You can also blend the offsets if there is a pattern for surrounding those unhit areas then save them for the next run.
Ron

Are you saying that I can go to the front and rear flow charts and richen or lean them manuely save the changes and then dyno to see the outcome

Basically I meant to smooth the blocks but yes you can richen and lean the gaps to conform the surrounding ones. Gaps are unhit cells with no offsets present, or not hit enough times to fill into correct position. Look at blending as speeding the offset process up. Further runs in this area will show if the blocks are moving in the right direction or they are starting to move back to where you started from with the gaps. It takes quite a while to get a nice line of blocks and to where they stop moving much. Then it's tuned as good as it gets based on the table used.
Ron
Ron

Ron thanks for that , thinking that mr auto tune had done his job made me a little complacent. I was studying the flows the other night and I couldn't  understand why they varied so much from one rev range to another. i will go and check again . Max

Well went to the flow charts and what stood out was that at wot they where down at all the points the dyno run showed as lean. so I have increased them after 70% and created a new map I will see what mr auto tone does with that.Max
              PS do you guys ever get frustrated with guys like me that stuf around at home?