HarleyTechTalk

I started out on a 95 FXDWG as my first bike and moved to a 09 Fat Bob less than a year later.

Lately I've been considering getting another evo as a second bike (several years from now.. As I'm told by the boss). I like to work on my bike and having a project would be fun. I'm well aware of all the problems the TC's have. However it seems the EVO issues were largely ironed out by 94. Just not clear as to why so many made the switch. Easier to build the motor and handling upgrades are the main reasons I read but with the TC you have to go mess with the crank to build the motor.  Seems counter productive and expensive. I would think fuel injection might be the real seller.

So am I sound thinking of getting a late model evo when the time comes? I have no issue going through it bottom to top within reason.

evo problems were actually sorted out by 1984, they ironed out the problems with 1000s miles road testing before they went into production

by comparison the twin cam was rushed into production and had issues from day one

rumour has it the earlier pre 88 evos were the best, better quality control, less "improvements" (read cost cutting)

While evo problems may be less they also make less power. If ya start building power they have just as many or more problems as TC.  If you compare HP vs problems I bet the higher the HP the fewer TC problems??

more horse power cost more money with TC then EVO the twin cam is a poor design. you guys that are obsessed with horse power and Tc's have deep pockets. if you want real horse power build a 4 cam big motor and make 200 to 250 HP now back to evo's good easy engine to work on. you can do the heads,pistons,carb, pipes and ignition and get 100 HP just the opinion of a old drag racer.......

 

Although I don't know if the deep pockets is always true, but dollar for dollar you make more power with a TC than an Evo, not to mention physical limitations of the cone motor limiting how big you can go without aftermarket cases, but that's deep pocket talk.  ;-)

Not to mention a 4 cam motor like dr evo mentioned, that's some deep pocket fun right there. 

Actually, dollar for dollar, you make more power with an Evo.   The stock Evo heads flow better and it comes standard with a gear drive cam, plus it runs cool- three big advantages right off the bat.  Also, most Evo's came with carburetors, which are far cheaper to modify for performance than the fuel injection that most TC's have. The only advantage the TC has is it can be built to bigger cubic inches, but with an aftermarket Evo, that advantage no longer exists.

You make good points mp.  Up to a point. 

Evo runs cooler.  That's true.  Although my 95" TC with a carb ran felt about the same temp while making about 15% more power than my 89" evo.

.....and certainly....anything is possible....but depending on the platform of the model you choose in the EVO category and it's intended purpose you will find that the evo engine modified to 80 Horses is a great and simple option....

Just seems like guys are wavering towards evo engines in favor of putting it on the bench and going with a S&S Crate motor of some sorts whether they choose a 113 or a 111 or a 96 or a 124......some really big engines are coming out today.

I got a small bump in power both in terms of HP and Torque with my mild build which is proving now to be reliable and all I really need on my 99 FXR2.

Out of the box Evo's were getting 55HP and 65 Lbs of Torque......now getting a bit over 82HP and 92 lbs of Torque with a mild cam and no loss of reliability yet anyway.....

Just plan on the project taking awhile in terms of collecting parts....we are up to 31 years on that engine now.....

Regards,

"Classic"

people switched to a TC because people want new 

I jumped from shovel to TC (kept the shovel) and missed the whole Evo-lution.  Due to the type of guys I rode with I can say they seemed to be able to take a beating. 

Quote from: ClassicRider2002 on March 28, 2015, 11:34:29 PM
.....and certainly....anything is possible....but depending on the platform of the model you choose in the EVO category and it's intended purpose you will find that the evo engine modified to 80 Horses is a great and simple option....

Just seems like guys are wavering towards evo engines in favor of putting it on the bench and going with a S&S Crate motor of some sorts whether they choose a 113 or a 111 or a 96 or a 124......some really big engines are coming out today.

I got a small bump in power both in terms of HP and Torque with my mild build which is proving now to be reliable and all I really need on my 99 FXR2.

Out of the box Evo's were getting 55HP and 65 Lbs of Torque......now getting a bit over 82HP and 92 lbs of Torque with a mild cam and no loss of reliability yet anyway.....

Just plan on the project taking awhile in terms of collecting parts....we are up to 31 years on that engine now.....

Regards,

"Classic"

Good info. I have about 80 HP 95tq or so on my TC and it's more than enough. I'm more about things running well than having the biggest engine. I think if I got an evo I'd be looking at those 99 FXR's maybe a FXR4.

So you're saying people like to pull the engine in favor of aftermarket? Is that due to case improvements.

The Evo case issues have all been resolved a long time ago and not all of the cases in those suspect years failed. The reason you see a lot of OEM Evo engines getting replaced is that it's very cost effective to do so. You can get a complete 113-127 ready to run delivered to your door for around 3500 buckaroos. You can spend close to that with headwork, cams, pistons and other mods on a stock 80 incher.

Hey Tim, What cam did you end up with in you 99 FXR2???

To answer the op's question, theres nothing so bad about an Evo. They are my choice as the best all around engine configuration Harley has come up with so far due to it's affordability, simplicity and reliability.

Like others stated, there's nothing really wrong with the Evolution engines, especially the later ones, like 94 to 2000 model years.  I've also bumped up the performance on my 80" FXR4 to 82 HP and 89 Lb/ft torque a few years ago. It's been trouble-free.  Others have swapped larger displacement crate engines, but there's no need for me to do that, it now has plenty of power for my "fun factor." 

So next question.. Why the heck is a 113 or higher tc engine so expensive? Near double the cost. I feel like it'd be a waste to do serious engine work to my bike when I can get an evo and drop a nice engine in it for not much more and have two bikes

Quote from: 76shuvlinoff on March 29, 2015, 04:36:18 AM
I jumped from shovel to TC (kept the shovel) and missed the whole Evo-lution. Due to the type of guys I rode with I can say they seemed to be able to take a beating.

Me too... .

I jumped from a flathead to a Panhead and skipped the whole knucklehead thing. When I got my first EVO (actually an S&S 97" EVO style) I seriously wondered if I had made a mistake. I hade been running Shovels for over 25 years and just wasn't sure if I'd like an EVO. Turned out they're a lot more like a Shovel than I expected.

so I just looked at an ultima 127, on line, one cam, like evo...?? how can the HD TC be a better engine when the aftermarket is EVO based? or did I miss something? 

Latina 127 is the exception and not the rule in aftermarket TC motors.

Hey Tim, What cam did you end up with in you 99 FXR2???

Steve,

I have been running with the Andrews EV23 since July of 2012.

It has a nice pull from the stop light as well as on the highway....but of course my comments reflect so much "subjective" opinion anyone could say the same thing about any cam.

The 3 cams I would consider most for the 99 FXR2 given the pistons, head work, high lift rockers and how I would cc the heads with a .030 HG and the Super Trapp 2-1 Supermeg pipe I am running would be (in no particular order) along with the type of throttle response I am looking at from 2800 RPMS to 4500 RPMS:

~Andrews EV23
~Andrews EV27
~V~Thunder EVL 3000

The recipe for my bike now of course given how I have cc'd the heads (83.5 cc's) and where I want the "Corrected" Compression to run which is less than 9.20 at the high range while keeping at a minimum of 9.0 has created a "marriage" of sorts to the EV 23.  I like the intake close angle of 30 degrees on this cam.  My over all lift with the SE High Lift Rockers is about 533.  Which puts me nicely in the MOUSE CAM WITH STILTS category....

Dyno Results have been aprx 82 HP and 93 LBS of Torque. 
Many are capable of doing a lot better with their build designs for sure than I have.

I am most likely getting closer to 80 HP and 90 LBS of torque out on the highway.  Given how I have the carb and timing set up.

As a point of reference the OEM FACTORY SPECS for an EVO engine stock out of the box/factory is 55 HP and 65 LBS of Torque.

I am also getting from 48 MPG to 52 MPG depending on how much mountain riding vs flat land riding I am doing and how playful I am with the throttle...

My experiences with this FXR2 have been:
A) Stock Engine, SC Mufflers, No alterations to Carb
B) V&H Pro Pipe, Adjustments to Carb, and 3010 V~Thunder Cam
C) Modified Heads:
VALVES:
1.900" INTAKE VALVE A1900 BLACK NITRIDE COATED         AV&V
1.610" EXHAUST VALVE AV1610D BLACK NITRIDE COATED  AV&V
with SE High Lift Rockers:
SCREAMIN EAGLE PRO ROCKER ARMS   1.725:1 RATIO
HD# 17396-08  $175.96
STOCK RATIO IS 1.65
Will increase valve opening to enhance power out put fits 84-99 Evolution 1340

.040 HG, JE Domed Pistons material removed to 12CC's of Dome Volume, EVL-3000, Super Trapp 2-1 SuperMeg, Carb Adjustments. Dynatek 2000P Ignition Module, SE Dual Fire Coil.

Currently:
D) Same modified Heads Heads CC's to 83.5, same valves with SE High Lift Rockers, .030 HG, more material removed from JE Pistons Domed Pistons to 9.5CC's of Dome Volume, Andrews EV23, Super Trapp 2-1 SuperMeg, Carb Adjustments, Dynatek 2000P Ignition Module, SE coil Dual Fire Coil.

CARBURETOR SET UP IS:
KNOKK NEEDLE
180 MAIN
45 SLOW JET
2 TURNS OUT FOR AIR MIXTURE SCREW

TIMING SET UP IS:
DYNATEK 2000P TIMING:
MAP CURVE 2
STATIC TIMING WAS RESET WITH THE DYNATEK 2000P''S  "RED LIGHT" METHOD
AND WAS LEFT SIMPLY AT "STATIC TIMING"

And previous comments are right by the time you do all this you are spending about $3,000.00 inclusive of the pipe.  Depending on how much labor an owner participates in with his own tear down and putting all the parts back together (which I do all my own labor), saving most likely another $1,000.00 of the total cost, it becomes a choice of many just to throw in a new engine with much more power....but like Burt Monroe, at least for me it is/was more fun to take a slow bike and make it a wee bit faster and to do so within my thinking and abilities than to buy a fast bike and go fast.....and along with this line of thinking, it is/was more fun to "tweak" a OEM engine than just to go buy another engine and put it in, it just depends on your motivations and focus.


A QUESTION OF BURT MONRO:
How much power do you have now?

"...Pff, I haven't a clue, it varies from year to year, I work 9 months and 9 days every day except 3 hours off for Christmas day.....I did 27 test runs this year, 24 on the beach, and 3 on the road, illegally, I was over the speed limit you know...."

"....Anybody can buy a bike and go fast, nowadays and I think there is a lot more in it than that, ah, more enjoyable in developing a slow machine to go fast, in the 20's when I first started racing all the guys practically had stock jobs, it was a battle of know how and learning how to make the bike go faster, experimentation and that, but any body can buy a bike and go fast, riding is only one hundredth of the actual experience needed, I think myself.  Although it can be pretty harry at times especially at speed trials.  There is something about speed it shows the result of the work whether good or bad. You can live more in 5 minutes doing some of these events than you can in a life time.  It's effort and concentration that makes life worth while and nice ladies around is a big help too.....laughs..."

The benefit of the "smaller" engine is keeping within other parameters of OEM parts...meaning like belts, transmission, starters, clutches, brakes....

I do have a dual disc set up on this bike with evo OEM brake calipers.....which I like as well...simple and effective.

Regards,

Tim

"Classic"

Lots of problems  with EVOs, cracked cases-behind lifter blocks, cracks in breather cavity, main seal bores too big, bad aluminum in cases --pulled studs,  base gasket leak issues,  and then your limited to about 96-97 inches--but not the best idea with stock cases.
If you think 80-85  HP is fast no problem with 80" motor. But for real power--A GOOD BIG MOTOR ALWAYS BEATS A GOOD LITTLE MOTOR.  Plus all the current R&D is in the TC motor.  Just my 2 cents.  Greg

Quote from: mattdrag on March 30, 2015, 10:28:57 AM
Lots of problems  with EVOs, cracked cases-behind lifter blocks, cracks in breather cavity, main seal bores too big, bad aluminum in cases --pulled studs,  base gasket leak issues,  and then your limited to about 96-97 inches--but not the best idea with stock cases.
If you think 80-85  HP is fast no problem with 80" motor. But for real power--A GOOD BIG MOTOR ALWAYS BEATS A GOOD LITTLE MOTOR.  Plus all the current R&D is in the TC motor.  Just my 2 cents.

Greg,

Many valid points.....

Regards,

"Classic"

Classic...........Ever have thoughts of running a V-Thunder EVL 5000?    Do not hear much about that series of cams.

Classic has good info--its not always what parts but the COMBINATION OF PARTS that make or break a project. Asking what cam is best is very open ended question. G

Quote from: remington007 on March 30, 2015, 01:45:10 PM
Classic...........Ever have thoughts of running a V-Thunder EVL 5000?    Do not hear much about that series of cams.

remington007,

Great question....

Actually yes I was at the time aware of the EVL-5000, it opens the door to a higher lift cam that some would probably like.....however I felt manipulating the build into that area of 533 with the 1.725 SE High Lift Rockers felt more comfortable to me.....heck the EV23 is only a .495" cam so that's why I wanted to change a bit of the characteristics of the EV23 via the High Lift Rockers....which is a bit different way to go, as it costs another $175.00 or so to do it that way....but it is a milder way of introducing a bit more lift.

Also I was more excited about the EV23 turning on a bit quicker with the intake close angle of about 3 degrees (30 vs 33), instead of delaying it a bit more.  I have a tendency to feel we over cam these bikes some times....so I preferred it to turn on as quickly as possible.

But you know who knows for sure.....at the end of the day the cam I chose is such a mild cam.....and there are so many more possibilities for those wanting to explore other options.

I was actually trying to replicate some of the characteristics of my twin cam build on my MOUSE WITH STILTS build, and for the most part I reached pretty similar results, given the displacements of both engines.

One thing about the EVO engine....when you put it into a touring bike platformed bike I believe guys felt it was some what under powered....but given the FXR2 is about 595 lbs wet the 80 HP bike does pretty well......it's enough given the type of riding available here in CO, WYO, MT, KS, NB where there are plenty of open spaces mixed with mountains and so forth.  I can see however how guys want to put bigger engines into them....but not so much for me.  I can get down the highway at 80-85 MPH just fine and it will climb to 100 nicely and will handle hills as well.

But now based upon how I have the heads set up and so forth....any other cam I would introduce would sacrifice some of the designed performance unless I go back in and manipulate heads and cc's and piston domes etc...(hopefully that makes sense) and to tell you the truth....I am into my 3rd year with this engine and all is good.....so let's just say unless the engine develops problems going back into this bike is in my rear view mirror.

 

I found a recipe that is working for me.

Regards,

"Classic"

Quote from: mattVA on March 27, 2015, 10:12:44 PM
So what is exactly wrong with an evo?

It ain't a shovel...