HarleyTechTalk

I have swapped shocks on my touring bikes many time, from progressive to ohlins to works and many others.  I find the ohlins to be way overpriced, a good progressive is just as good.  The best shock for a touring ride is a well maintained stocker IMO.  It pains me to say that, but that is what I have found.  I could have saved lots of money not listening to others and ignoring the hype.

Now on my dyna, I really like the works shocks I installed last year.  Huge improvement over stock.

Quote from: ndmp40 on April 14, 2015, 10:22:02 AM
I have swapped shocks on my touring bikes many time, from progressive to ohlins to works and many others.  I find the ohlins to be way overpriced, a good progressive is just as good.  The best shock for a touring ride is a well maintained stocker IMO.  It pains me to say that, but that is what I have found.  I could have saved lots of money not listening to others and ignoring the hype.

Now on my dyna, I really like the works shocks I installed last year.  Huge improvement over stock.

Ahhhh, the voice of back to back to back experience! Nothing better!
Bob

Quote from: ndmp40 on April 14, 2015, 10:22:02 AM
I have swapped shocks on my touring bikes many time, from progressive to ohlins to works and many others.  I find the ohlins to be way overpriced, a good progressive is just as good.  The best shock for a touring ride is a well maintained stocker IMO.  It pains me to say that, but that is what I have found.  I could have saved lots of money not listening to others and ignoring the hype.

Now on my dyna, I really like the works shocks I installed last year.  Huge improvement over stock.

What does "well maintained" mean? Is there more to do than making sure the air pressure is correct?

Quote from: qtrracer on April 14, 2015, 10:13:56 AM
Does not change the spring rate. It brings in the main spring sooner. So the spring rate never changes.

There are 2 springs that are close to the same rate.. The sum of the 2 make one rate.. If you clip out the one spring the rate goes up.. Which is what the ARS does.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Series_and_parallel_springs

While this is close to a progressive spring in the middle adjustments, you have more control over the transition as you don't use preload to move crossover point.. You can have a single rate light spring both springs, couple progressive rates with different crossover points or a single rate stiffer spring.. So the spring rate of the shock as a system can change.

Quote from: ndmp40 on April 14, 2015, 10:22:02 AM
I have swapped shocks on my touring bikes many time, from progressive to ohlins to works and many others.  I find the ohlins to be way overpriced, a good progressive is just as good.  The best shock for a touring ride is a well maintained stocker IMO.  It pains me to say that, but that is what I have found.  I could have saved lots of money not listening to others and ignoring the hype.

Now on my dyna, I really like the works shocks I installed last year.  Huge improvement over stock.

Which Progressives were good?

You love to argue don't you. Especially when you are wrong.Work Perf description not mine:The ARS system consists of an indexing lever and a stepped cup that contains the short spring of the dual-rate. The position of the lever in relation to the steps in the cup determines how long the spring set remains on the soft, or initial, rate of the dual-rate spring set. On most ARS applications, four positions can be selected from full stiff to full soft. Indexing is done in a matter of seconds by rotating the lever or the cup by hand.

I'm out............

Quote from: qtrracer on April 14, 2015, 10:42:40 AM
You love to argue don't you. Especially when you are wrong.Work Perf description not mine:The ARS system consists of an indexing lever and a stepped cup that contains the short spring of the dual-rate. The position of the lever in relation to the steps in the cup determines how long the spring set remains on the soft, or initial, rate of the dual-rate spring set. On most ARS applications, four positions can be selected from full stiff to full soft. Indexing is done in a matter of seconds by rotating the lever or the cup by hand.

I'm out............

I checked.. The smaller spring has tighter windings so I'm wrong.. It is a dual rate spring until the highest setting then it's a single rate spring.. I was thinking the spring rates were the same.. Still you are not using preload to change the crossover point..

If ordered direct the Works Street Trackers are built to order based on the info you supply (type of bike, Dyna or Ultra, your weight, passenger weight etc.). I found them much better than the off the shelf PG's.

Rick

Quote from: Max Headflow on April 14, 2015, 10:34:58 AM

Quote from: ndmp40 on April 14, 2015, 10:22:02 AM
I have swapped shocks on my touring bikes many time, from progressive to ohlins to works and many others.  I find the ohlins to be way overpriced, a good progressive is just as good.  The best shock for a touring ride is a well maintained stocker IMO.  It pains me to say that, but that is what I have found.  I could have saved lots of money not listening to others and ignoring the hype.

Now on my dyna, I really like the works shocks I installed last year.  Huge improvement over stock.

Which Progressives were good?

440

Quote from: Fairweatherrdr on April 14, 2015, 10:30:33 AM

Quote from: ndmp40 on April 14, 2015, 10:22:02 AM
I have swapped shocks on my touring bikes many time, from progressive to ohlins to works and many others.  I find the ohlins to be way overpriced, a good progressive is just as good.  The best shock for a touring ride is a well maintained stocker IMO.  It pains me to say that, but that is what I have found.  I could have saved lots of money not listening to others and ignoring the hype.

Now on my dyna, I really like the works shocks I installed last year.  Huge improvement over stock.

What does "well maintained" mean? Is there more to do than making sure the air pressure is correct?

Watch the oil.

"Watch the oil"...could you elaborate a little? Is there a way to check the oil in a stock shock?

I'd say make sure you have the stock 13" shocks and that no one has swapped them for the "Potty mouth"tie 12"ers to try to look cool. If you've got the 13's I doubt your looking for a "softer" shock as you might actually be bottoming out. Try more air, then if that works give them a little tune-up with some new earl and buy some jewelry for the woman

Quote from: ndmp40 on April 14, 2015, 11:41:27 AM

Quote from: Max Headflow on April 14, 2015, 10:34:58 AM

Quote from: ndmp40 on April 14, 2015, 10:22:02 AM
I have swapped shocks on my touring bikes many time, from progressive to ohlins to works and many others.  I find the ohlins to be way overpriced, a good progressive is just as good.  The best shock for a touring ride is a well maintained stocker IMO.  It pains me to say that, but that is what I have found.  I could have saved lots of money not listening to others and ignoring the hype.

Now on my dyna, I really like the works shocks I installed last year.  Huge improvement over stock.

Which Progressives were good?

440

Certainly not for me. They were better than stock on my Eglide but that's about it.

Rick

Quote from: qtrracer on April 14, 2015, 10:42:40 AM
You love to argue don't you. Especially when you are wrong.Work Perf description not mine:The ARS system consists of an indexing lever and a stepped cup that contains the short spring of the dual-rate. The position of the lever in relation to the steps in the cup determines how long the spring set remains on the soft, or initial, rate of the dual-rate spring set. On most ARS applications, four positions can be selected from full stiff to full soft. Indexing is done in a matter of seconds by rotating the lever or the cup by hand.

I'm out............

One thing to note is that as soon as you have 2 different rate springs in the stack up, you have different overall spring rate  based on preload.. Simple physics and math.. No smoke and mirrors..

Quote from: Max Headflow on April 14, 2015, 11:04:01 AMI checked.. The smaller spring has tighter windings so I'm wrong.. It is a dual rate spring until the highest setting then it's a single rate spring.. I was thinking the spring rates were the same.. Still you are not using preload to change the crossover point..

It's an interesting idea.  I wonder if they aren't a little "clacky" and how long the mechanism parts maintain original shapes / dimensions.

Well I have a set of JRI's, As soon as I get them on I will give full review,I had them set up for my touring bike with a passenger and a heavy load,looks like a Nice Shock,but looks can be Deceiving,as for the stock shocks I went with Ray (NoCents) advice and changed the oil to A heavier weight very much improvements over Stock......... 

  I've been researching new shocks for my 09 Ultra and I came across these new shocks from Fox. I know they make good stuff for dirt bikes and atv's. Has anyone had a chance to try out their v twin shocks yet.   http://www.ridefox.com/product.php?m=moto&t=shocks&p=3349&ref=filter

Talk to my good friend JD, and problem solved.. 

http://www.shotgunshock.com/#&panel1-1


CW

Quote from: ChromeWhore on April 14, 2015, 09:21:10 PM
Talk to my good friend JD, and problem solved.. 

http://www.shotgunshock.com/#&panel1-1


CW

Again poor choice/option all the way around.  I'm not alone on this one.   -Rick

Quote from: qtrracer on April 14, 2015, 10:42:40 AM
You love to argue don't you. Especially when you are wrong.Work Perf description not mine:The ARS system consists of an indexing lever and a stepped cup that contains the short spring of the dual-rate. The position of the lever in relation to the steps in the cup determines how long the spring set remains on the soft, or initial, rate of the dual-rate spring set. On most ARS applications, four positions can be selected from full stiff to full soft. Indexing is done in a matter of seconds by rotating the lever or the cup by hand.

I'm out............

ARS means adjustable rate suspension.  If the entire Works Perf. description had been quoted it basically states that the spring rate is increased/decreased slightly by changes in preload and more so by changes in the ARS lever position which limits the travel dedicated to the softer spring.  -Rick

Quote from: qtrracer on April 14, 2015, 10:13:56 AM
Does not change the spring rate. It brings in the main spring sooner. So the spring rate never changes.

Limiting the travel of the softer spring or as you say "bringing in the main spring sooner" does change the effective spring rate.  -Rick

Quote from: Max Headflow on April 14, 2015, 11:04:01 AM

Quote from: qtrracer on April 14, 2015, 10:42:40 AM
You love to argue don't you. Especially when you are wrong.Work Perf description not mine:The ARS system consists of an indexing lever and a stepped cup that contains the short spring of the dual-rate. The position of the lever in relation to the steps in the cup determines how long the spring set remains on the soft, or initial, rate of the dual-rate spring set. On most ARS applications, four positions can be selected from full stiff to full soft. Indexing is done in a matter of seconds by rotating the lever or the cup by hand.

I'm out............

I checked.. The smaller spring has tighter windings so I'm wrong.. It is a dual rate spring until the highest setting then it's a single rate spring.. I was thinking the spring rates were the same.. Still you are not using preload to change the crossover point..

Kinda begs the question if double springs/rates work, how come race cars and bikes don't use this config?
Bob

Quote from: FLTRI on April 15, 2015, 09:49:08 AM

Quote from: Max Headflow on April 14, 2015, 11:04:01 AM

Quote from: qtrracer on April 14, 2015, 10:42:40 AM
You love to argue don't you. Especially when you are wrong.Work Perf description not mine:The ARS system consists of an indexing lever and a stepped cup that contains the short spring of the dual-rate. The position of the lever in relation to the steps in the cup determines how long the spring set remains on the soft, or initial, rate of the dual-rate spring set. On most ARS applications, four positions can be selected from full stiff to full soft. Indexing is done in a matter of seconds by rotating the lever or the cup by hand.

I'm out............

I checked.. The smaller spring has tighter windings so I'm wrong.. It is a dual rate spring until the highest setting then it's a single rate spring.. I was thinking the spring rates were the same.. Still you are not using preload to change the crossover point..

Kinda begs the question if double springs/rates work, how come race cars and bikes don't use this config?
Bob

That's easy.. The reason they don't use progressive springs is that they set the chassis up for the proper weight and don't expect the guy to pick up any hitchhikers while out on the track..

Quote from: Max Headflow on April 15, 2015, 10:33:31 AM

Quote from: FLTRI on April 15, 2015, 09:49:08 AM

Quote from: Max Headflow on April 14, 2015, 11:04:01 AM

Quote from: qtrracer on April 14, 2015, 10:42:40 AM
You love to argue don't you. Especially when you are wrong.Work Perf description not mine:The ARS system consists of an indexing lever and a stepped cup that contains the short spring of the dual-rate. The position of the lever in relation to the steps in the cup determines how long the spring set remains on the soft, or initial, rate of the dual-rate spring set. On most ARS applications, four positions can be selected from full stiff to full soft. Indexing is done in a matter of seconds by rotating the lever or the cup by hand.

I'm out............

I checked.. The smaller spring has tighter windings so I'm wrong.. It is a dual rate spring until the highest setting then it's a single rate spring.. I was thinking the spring rates were the same.. Still you are not using preload to change the crossover point..

Kinda begs the question if double springs/rates work, how come race cars and bikes don't use this config?
Bob

That's easy.. The reason they don't use progressive springs is that they set the chassis up for the proper weight and don't expect the guy to pick up any hitchhikers while out on the track..

So are you saying racecars that start a race with 30 gallons (approx 200lbs) isn't the same as dropping off a passenger when the fuel is at its lowest point before refill? 
Bob

IMO dual rate set-up is more about ride quality combined with carrying capacity,  more utilitarian focus.  Straight rate is more performance focused but sometimes I think on less than perfect public roads there is room for improvement is suppleness/small bump absorption,  ripple bumps at deep lean is a good example.

This stuff on Harleys is caveman grade.  I just read an article in Cycle World where the new Yamaha R1 has a 6 axis Inertial Measurement Unit that works in conjunction with traction control, slide control and lift control which are all adjustable to control wheel spin, slide and wheelie via fuel cuts, ignition retard and throttle butterfly manipulation.  Then you step up to the R1M which adds full electronic Ohlins suspension which is constantly adjusting the suspension in milliseconds.  I'm sure it works similar to the European bikes in that it is looking at lean angle, ground speed, wheel speed, gear selection, throttle % and lift/wheelie to adjust the suspension based on how much fun your having.

These electronic systems are getting better all the time and are becoming transparent as far as being able to detect intervention.   Bikes like the Ducati Multistrada could use improvement in ride quality but I'm sure that isn't far away.

Meanwhile Streetglides look like rabbits going down the road hopping over bumps and the reactionary movement of tourpacks on touring models is an indication that these beasts could use some help.  Little more travel,  quality components,  some/any tech.  -Rick