HarleyTechTalk

Anyone hear if Target Tune is closer to coming to market?

Spoke to DJ in uk regarding other matters, they have been allocated part numbers and gave a guess of around a month. I did see somewhere it was mentioned to be out around end of September.

Target Tune is going to start shipping next week. I just posted info in my vendor section.

Outstanding.
Ron

    Dynojet just release it.

I got the e-mail today as well.  Good to go

Here's hoping it works well enough to save all of us some time and trouble!

Quote from: Mountainman streetbob on July 31, 2015, 02:39:52 PM
Here's hoping it works well enough to save all of us some time and trouble!

good sampling should lead to good results or its the garbage in and garbage out roundabout......

Quote from: Hilly13 on July 31, 2015, 02:49:50 PM

Quote from: Mountainman streetbob on July 31, 2015, 02:39:52 PM
Here's hoping it works well enough to save all of us some time and trouble!

good sampling should lead to good results or its the garbage in and garbage out roundabout......

We'll all be back to yappin' about bad sensor placement very soon........

Quote from: tdkkart on July 31, 2015, 03:16:03 PM

Quote from: Hilly13 on July 31, 2015, 02:49:50 PM

Quote from: Mountainman streetbob on July 31, 2015, 02:39:52 PM
Here's hoping it works well enough to save all of us some time and trouble!

good sampling should lead to good results or its the garbage in and garbage out roundabout......

We'll all be back to yappin' about bad sensor placement very soon........

Haha, yep 

We'll all be back to yappin' about bad sensor placement very soon........
[/quote]

Haha, yep 
[/quote]


Speaking of which 

http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,84569.0.html

Just ordered one from fuelmoto.
We are going to give it a try! Down under!

And it will never work because of the made up data that PV generates....  [emoji1]

I wonder if it internally puts the data together better than it does for showing it to us in a log file.  I'd sure hope so, but then why show it to us like it does...

I predict the system will work okay on some bikes and not so much on others.

Why the doubt on this product?

Quote from: Wallaby Bob on August 04, 2015, 07:02:44 AM
Why the doubt on this product?

Because "autotune" (target tune) is an oxymoron?
This has been done before by Revolution Performance a few years ago. A techline disaster?
Worked ok for stock and mild stage 2 bikes with popular cams and exhaust.
High performance builds with free flowing open exhaust with difference size injectors cause challenges as well.
Since DJ basically puts the ECM in engineering mode there are normal features that are not used which can prevent the system from some learning which means every time the engine is started and run the system relearns short term but no long term for fueling and timing.
There are other challenges to using the ECM in this mode and time will tell how that unfolds with this product.
What's the build you're going to use this on?
Bob

Was going to give it a go on the 120 when it's finally back together.

A Bit of input, FWIW. As applicable to a 120 build...
I am a tuner so I naturally believe a proper dyno tune is much better than any autotune system on the market for big inch, high performance engines.
There are just so many introduced variables in a big build, autotune systems just can't cover them all.
For example it can't make decisions as to when and where open and closed loop are relied upon for tuning and running. That's a biggie right there!

Then there's ignition timing...a good tuner will find false knock retard and know how to minimize it. For the 10-up bikes it's become a challenge to control knock retard.

Breaking in and tuning a fresh big inch build in a tightly monitored (temps, rpms, load, etc) environment in lieu of you taking your brand new engine with a brand new EFI system added to your bike out on the streets to know how to and be able to do a proper break in when you done know if the new autotune system is dialing in your bike or maybe it's supposed to run like this.
I know the ads say just "hook it up and ride" they fail to say "on a stock bike" cause that's the only ones that the stuff works as advertised.
just a few reasons to treat your fresh 120 to a proper dyno break-in and tune.
Bob

I get where you are coming from, but, it's seems that this is easier said than done around these parts of the Southern Hemisphere. So for the next best thing for me is to have some degree of control over the engine running, albeit, via the gauges on the PV. I would think that a pair of wide bands would be reasonably accurate in giving you some parameters with you tune. To me , an O2 sensor either works or it is junk. Squillions of vehicles gave them all over this planet.
But, I do respect your input and I will consider it all very carefully. Cheers!

Quote from: FLTRI on August 04, 2015, 08:59:03 AM

Quote from: Wallaby Bob on August 04, 2015, 07:02:44 AM
Why the doubt on this product?

Because "autotune" (target tune) is an oxymoron?
This has been done before by Revolution Performance a few years ago. A techline disaster?
Worked ok for stock and mild stage 2 bikes with popular cams and exhaust.
High performance builds with free flowing open exhaust with difference size injectors cause challenges as well.
Since DJ basically puts the ECM in engineering mode there are normal features that are not used which can prevent the system from some learning which means every time the engine is started and run the system relearns short term but no long term for fueling and timing.
There are other challenges to using the ECM in this mode and time will tell how that unfolds with this product.
What's the build you're going to use this on?
Bob

Unfortunately the info in your post is simply incorrect, Engineering Mode?
Target Tune does not change the "normal features" and it uses both short term and long term fuel trims.

Will TT interface with the vision gauge setting and allow you to monitor what it is doing?  Monitoring this is key when doing a new engine.  If not.  I would break it in and tune with the AT-100 and vision.  This will allow you to see danger lean/ rich, and manual adjust VE's out of danger zone.  This will also let you do timing.  Then put on TT if you want to run the bike on after it was tuned and broke in.  IIRC DJ can take your tuned vision map and turn that into your TT starter map.

There are no short cuts and I don't think this is any more money to spend since they have a kit out there for guys that already have the Vision and AT-100's.  It would be worth while to look into.

Quote from: hrdtail78 on August 05, 2015, 07:59:26 AM
Will TT interface with the vision gauge setting and allow you to monitor what it is doing?  Monitoring this is key when doing a new engine.  If not.  I would break it in and tune with the AT-100 and vision.  This will allow you to see danger lean/ rich, and manual adjust VE's out of danger zone.  This will also let you do timing.  Then put on TT if you want to run the bike on after it was tuned and broke in.  IIRC DJ can take your tuned vision map and turn that into your TT starter map.

There are no short cuts and I don't think this is any more money to spend since they have a kit out there for guys that already have the Vision and AT-100's.  It would be worth while to look into.

With TT you read/monitor the widebands right off the ECM's databus (you can choose AFR or Lambda), not AT-wideband over CAN like the AT-Pro units. There is also a new TT specific Auto Tune mode on the PV; TT-AT allows users to build their VE tables to the desired AF targets in the base AFR/Lambda table, it does not set the target to 13.0 AF like AT-Pro.

If users have a map they have been working with that they would like converted to a TT map both Dynojet & Fuel Moto have the ability to do so and there is an end user tool on the way.

Quote from: Jamie Long on August 05, 2015, 08:12:45 AM
If users have a map they have been working with that they would like converted to a TT map both Dynojet & Fuel Moto have the ability to do so and there is an end user tool on the way.

Any map? TTS, DL, SEPST, ETC.?
Not sure a conversion will work well due to all the background tables and strategies each mfg uses to build calibrations based their own idea of best calibration practices.
Maybe you meant converting just DJ products maps to TT?
Bob

Quote from: FLTRI on August 05, 2015, 09:10:48 AM

Quote from: Jamie Long on August 05, 2015, 08:12:45 AM
If users have a map they have been working with that they would like converted to a TT map both Dynojet & Fuel Moto have the ability to do so and there is an end user tool on the way.

Any map? TTS, DL, SEPST, ETC.?
Not sure a conversion will work well due to all the background tables and strategies each mfg uses to build calibrations based their own idea of best calibration practices.
Maybe you meant converting just DJ products maps to TT?
Bob

Any closed loop map that can be read by Power Vision and saved as a .pvt can be converted to a TT calibration

Quote from: Jamie Long on August 05, 2015, 09:24:46 AM

Quote from: FLTRI on August 05, 2015, 09:10:48 AM

Quote from: Jamie Long on August 05, 2015, 08:12:45 AM
If users have a map they have been working with that they would like converted to a TT map both Dynojet & Fuel Moto have the ability to do so and there is an end user tool on the way.

Any map? TTS, DL, SEPST, ETC.?
Not sure a conversion will work well due to all the background tables and strategies each mfg uses to build calibrations based their own idea of best calibration practices.
Maybe you meant converting just DJ products maps to TT?
Bob

Any closed loop map that can be read by Power Vision and saved as a .pvt can be converted to a TT calibration

Any guarantee the conversions will provide the same tune quality as the file provided before the conversion?
In other words, if I have a TTS Mastertune calibration how can you convert it to a TT file  and expect the same run quality as the TTS file provided?
I have always found conversions take a lot for granted and assume tuning strategies are the same from mfg to mfg. They just never seem to be close enough to justify using a converted file rather than starting from scratch with a purpose build calibration rather than a converted one.
Time will tell how this system will work but we have learned over time tuning assumptions (ie: converted cals) do not turn out as expected...especially as applied to big, high performance builds due to all the inherent variables induced when making big changes.
Bob