HD now has Hydra chain conversion kit!

[Herko]

Umm, the Morse style chain has been used to drive automotive camshafts for the last 40 years or so. Now they're junk?

On the Morse system, it not so much the chains. It's the old tensioner inferior pad material and the overkill unregulated spring tension on the old tensioners. Wonder if Morse designed the old system though??

[91fe]

Alright... I'm new around here.  I found you guys while looking for advice on fixing my cam tensioners.  I very much appreciate the fact that the vast majority of the threads on this board are here for a purpose.  I really hate sifting through all of the crap on the other boards.

Now... on to business.

I'm trying to fix this:



It's my '03 Road King that's just past the 30K mark.  I've already decided that I don't want to go with a gear drive... the upgraded tensioner system is the right fix for ME and that's how I intend to address the problem.  I thought I had it all figured out until this new option came along... now I'm all confused.  I'm trying to weigh future dependability and cost at the same time and have come up with the following options:

1.  Piece the conversion cam system together myself for $750.  This number includes Andrews 26N cams and SE adjustable pushrods.  Yes, I know there are guys out there selling complete kits ready to go...but given the current temp outside, I'm in no real hurry and wouldn't mind saving some money by doing the leg work myself.

2.  A variation of above, but save a couple more bucks by sourcing some parts off of eBay.  I could probably get my number down to $650.

3.  Go with HD's new kit for $460 ($360, plus $100 for additional parts and shipping).

My two questions are these:

1.  With HD's kit, is there any need to mess with the pushrods?  I'm thinking not, but I'm not completely sure.  If so, the added expense of adjustables probably makes this option a no-go.

2.  Of the three options above... What would you do?

Thanks!

[ederdelyi]

>>1.  With HD's kit, is there any need to mess with the pushrods?  I'm thinking not, but I'm not completely sure.  If so, the added expense of adjustables probably makes this option a no-go.<<

Adjustable pushrods are not needed unless you don't want to open up the rocker boxes and remove the rocker support plate. Many just cut the stock rods to avoid doing that step.If you mill the heads or use a cam with a smaller than stock base circle, then adjustables or "perfect fit" pushrods may be required.

>>2.  Of the three options above... What would you do?<<

If you don't want to change cams and the stock stuff is in good shape, then the HD setup may be what you want to consider. It's just another option, IMO. I personally would have no qualms running either chain setup in my own motor ... but I'm still running the original Morse chain/spring tensioners so WTFDIK? :>)

EDIT: You will get many varying opinions on this. Do what makes sense to you both financially and from a comfort level. I have no "axe" to grind with the MOCO, SnS, or any other vendor ... just call things as I see 'em with as litlle bias as I can.

[fxrp]

Well lets, see. Since 1999 everyone looked for an alternative to the silent chain system because it ate tension shoes at random (some bad at 15k some still OK at 50k) and caused a lot of problems. Gear drive came out and everyone moved to it to eliminate the Morse chains and the tensioners. If you go back and read this thread you'll find some questions about how well the rough/coarse Morse chain will work with the new hydraulic tensioners.

In '03 HD degraded the bottom end with a roller bearing on the crank; in '05 they further degraded the bottom end with cast into forged flywheels which caused excessive pinion runout and made gear drives problematic. In '06 on the Dyna models and '07 to present all models HD went to the roller chain and hydraulic tensioners. From everything we've seen/heard the new system is working very well and the tensioners are showing little to no wear with as much as 25k and more miles.

For the same or less $$$ than the HD kit you can fully convert to the roller chain so why would you want to retain any portion of the old problematic system.

And yes, at least the HD version of the Morse chain is junk. IMO

Paul

[Don D]

Consider bagging the SE pushrods and reuse yours
Take a small portion of the money saved ad replace the plastic breather assemblys with the cast aluminum replacements.

[Hoist!]

Alright... I'm new around here.  I found you guys while looking for advice on fixing my cam tensioners.  I very much appreciate the fact that the vast majority of the threads on this board are here for a purpose.  I really hate sifting through all of the crap on the other boards.

Now... on to business.

I'm trying to fix this:



It's my '03 Road King that's just past the 30K mark.  I've already decided that I don't want to go with a gear drive... the upgraded tensioner system is the right fix for ME and that's how I intend to address the problem.  I thought I had it all figured out until this new option came along... now I'm all confused.  I'm trying to weigh future dependability and cost at the same time and have come up with the following options:

1.  Piece the conversion cam system together myself for $750.  This number includes Andrews 26N cams and SE adjustable pushrods.  Yes, I know there are guys out there selling complete kits ready to go...but given the current temp outside, I'm in no real hurry and wouldn't mind saving some money by doing the leg work myself.

2.  A variation of above, but save a couple more bucks by sourcing some parts off of eBay.  I could probably get my number down to $650.

3.  Go with HD's new kit for $460 ($360, plus $100 for additional parts and shipping).

My two questions are these:

1.  With HD's kit, is there any need to mess with the pushrods?  I'm thinking not, but I'm not completely sure.  If so, the added expense of adjustables probably makes this option a no-go.

2.  Of the three options above... What would you do?

Thanks!

First off, welcome aboard 91! New here too, but with the tensioners looking like that, I'd be pulling the Oil Pump apart at a minimum. You have the first year of the roller lower end too, so I'd be checking runout as well. The new hydraulic conversion might be a good solution, whether using the new one, or converting it to the new style with new style cams to boot. Think about using a Feuling Camplate and Oil Pump too, or at least the Baisley Bypass shim. For stock cams, and if you remove the heads, you can reuse the pushrods. With the heads on, you'll have to cut them out and use adjustables w/new push rod covers. Frankly, I'm not convinced on the new HD kit yet!

Hoist!

[91fe]

...If you don't want to change cams and the stock stuff is in good shape, then the HD setup may be what you want to consider. It's just another option, IMO. I personally would have no qualms running either chain setup in my own motor ... but I'm still running the original Morse chain/spring tensioners so WTFDIK? :>)

Thanks!  I'm really not concerned with added HP and I'm content with the current performance of my bike.

[91fe]

...For the same or less $$$ than the HD kit you can fully convert to the roller chain so why would you want to retain any portion of the old problematic system.

And yes, at least the HD version of the Morse chain is junk. IMO

Paul

But it's not the same, or less money for the full upgrade... it's $300 more.

[91fe]

Consider bagging the SE pushrods and reuse yours
Take a small portion of the money saved ad replace the plastic breather assemblys with the cast aluminum replacements.

Is it worth pulling the tank to save the pushrod money?  Please tell me more about the breather assemblies... what and how.  Thanks!

[fxrp]

>>2.  Of the three options above... What would you do?<<

If you don't want to change cams and the stock stuff is in good shape, then the HD setup may be what you want to consider. It's just another option, IMO. I personally would have no qualms running either chain setup in my own motor ... but I'm still running the original Morse chain/spring tensioners so WTFDIK? :>)

Well at 30k I would recommend you replace the cams and lifters so I would strongly recommend that you go with the complete conversion. Lots of plus's with the full conversion. With HDs new "kit" there are lots of minus's IMO.

Paul

[fxrp]

...For the same or less $$$ than the HD kit you can fully convert to the roller chain so why would you want to retain any portion of the old problematic system.

And yes, at least the HD version of the Morse chain is junk. IMO

Paul

But it's not the same, or less money for the full upgrade... it's $300 more.

That's not true. The HD kit is $448 w/o cams, the complete kit from Herko, again w/o cams is under $400 he said.

[nc-renegade]

Well at 30k I would recommend you replce the cams and lifters so I would strongly recommend that you go with the complete conversion. Lots of plus's with the full conversion. With HDs new "kit" there are lots of minus's IMO.

Paul

The conversion kit with new cams, camplate and pump is a very nice way to go and one of the easiest installations you can do.  I would not consider going with this new HD conversion.

[91fe]

...For the same or less $$$ than the HD kit you can fully convert to the roller chain so why would you want to retain any portion of the old problematic system.

And yes, at least the HD version of the Morse chain is junk. IMO

Paul

But it's not the same, or less money for the full upgrade... it's $300 more.

That's not true. The HD kit is $448 w/o cams, the complete kit from Herko, again w/o cams is under $400 he said.

edit: You're not comparing apples to apples.  You can't run Herko's kit without buying conversion cams too.

Believe me...I've been running the numbers for every part necessary to do each of the options myself.  They are:

Complete upgrade with Andrews cams and adj pushrods... $750 from Zanotti's and $862 from Herko.
HD's fix kit from Zanotti's, no cams necessary... $460.

[nc-renegade]

That's not true. The HD kit is $448 w/o cams, the complete kit from Herko, again w/o cams is under $400 he said.

That's a good point.  You could argue this is a billet plate versus a stock plate though.

If you are having a shop do the work, I bet the difference between installing this kit with your old cams versus installing new cams with the conversion kit (herko) is fairly close, since with this kit you should install new outer bearings; which makes the shop time is greater.

[nc-renegade]

Believe me...I've been running the numbers for every part necessary to do each of the options myself.  They are:

Complete upgrade with Andrews cams and adj pushrods... $750 from Zanotti's and $862 from Herko.
HD's fix kit from Zanotti's, no cams necessary... $460.

You don't have adjustable pushrods figured in the $460 price, do you?

[Jeffd]

pretty easy to pull the tank.  I don't know why everyone makes a fuss about this.  herko sells some quick release adaptors for the cross over hose makes it simple.

[ederdelyi]

See ... I told ya you'd get lots of varying opinions :>)

I'll say it again, then shut up ... do what makes the most sense for you ... it's your ride and your wallet.

[aal]

"If you are having a shop do the work, I bet the difference between installing this kit with your old cams versus installing new cams with the conversion kit (herko) is fairly close, since with this kit you should install new outer bearings; which makes the shop time is greater."

Sorry as I know this has been discussed extensively before, but what exatly is involved in changing the new outer bearings? What is the exact new bearing that's to be used?  Thanks.

[nc-renegade]

pretty easy to pull the tank.  I don't know why everyone makes a fuss about this. 

I prefer to pull the tank as well.  Just makes it easier to work on the bike.  I have a lot of the hose clamps on hand and made the crimp tool from cutting nips.

[smoserx1]

Sorry as I know this has been discussed extensively before, but what exatly is involved in changing the new outer bearings? What is the exact new bearing that's to be used?  Thanks.

If you are doing the full conversion, then there are no outer bearings used anymore.  For the old spring tensioner replacement, or the new hybrid support plate, both use the pressed in ball/roller bearings.  Some folks get around pressing the bearings in by using their oven and freezer to expand/shrink the plate and bearings respectively so they will remove and install with little or no force.  Sounds like it would work good, but it might stink up your house.  For do-it-yourselfers who don't want to use their oven, the full conversion has the advantage of not requiring pressing tools, potentially saving some additional money.

[nc-renegade]

Sorry as I know this has been discussed extensively before, but what exatly is involved in changing the new outer bearings? What is the exact new bearing that's to be used?  Thanks.

From Sir Garfield:
Outer (Chains)
Front           --  NACHI  6004-C3
Rear            --  HD P/N 8983      BEARING ASSEMBLY

The new camplate conversion, the cams ride in the parent material...so no bearings.  With the conversion kit we are discussing here, it uses the above bearings that are pressed onto the cams and camplate.

The two methods are shown here:
http://www.harleyhog.co.uk/tensionerinstall.htm for the oven method.

http://www.harleyhog.co.uk/camguidepage1.htm for the press method.


I've used both and prefer the press method.  BUT, as stated here, I sure like converting the cams and plate to the new tensioner system without these bearings.

[aal]

Sorry as I know this has been discussed extensively before, but what exatly is involved in changing the new outer bearings? What is the exact new bearing that's to be used?  Thanks.

From Sir Garfield:
Outer (Chains)
Front           --  NACHI  6004-C3
Rear            --  HD P/N 8983      BEARING ASSEMBLY

The new camplate conversion, the cams ride in the parent material...so no bearings.  With the conversion kit we are discussing here, it uses the above bearings that are pressed onto the cams and camplate.

The two methods are shown here:
http://www.harleyhog.co.uk/tensionerinstall.htm for the oven method.

http://www.harleyhog.co.uk/camguidepage1.htm for the press method.


I've used both and prefer the press method.  BUT, as stated here, I sure like converting the cams and plate to the new tensioner system without these bearings.

So, with the new HD kit and camplate, there are no bearings involved?

[91fe]

Believe me...I've been running the numbers for every part necessary to do each of the options myself.  They are:

Complete upgrade with Andrews cams and adj pushrods... $750 from Zanotti's and $862 from Herko.
HD's fix kit from Zanotti's, no cams necessary... $460.

You don't have adjustable pushrods figured in the $460 price, do you?

No...  It's $361 for the kit, $73 for extra parts and $26 for tax and shipping.

[91fe]

See ... I told ya you'd get lots of varying opinions :>)

I'll say it again, then shut up ... do what makes the most sense for you ... it's your ride and your wallet.

That's just it...and why I'm here.  I don't exactly know what makes sense to me.  If we're just talking dollars and cents, for a bike that I intend to do the work on...and one that I'm not all too concerned with the "go fast" parts... then the HD kit makes pretty good sense.  On the other hand, I can see that the full conversion is a better engineered system.  I just need to figure out if the extra money for the full conversion is a smart investment, or if the HD kit is all the doctor ordered.

[aal]

That's just it...and why I'm here.  I don't exactly know what makes sense to me.  If we're just talking dollars and cents, for a bike that I intend to do the work on...and one that I'm not all too concerned with the "go fast" parts... then the HD kit makes pretty good sense.  On the other hand, I can see that the full conversion is a better engineered system.  I just need to figure out if the extra money for the full conversion is a smart investment, or if the HD kit is all the doctor ordered.
[/quote]

What exatcly is the difference between the HD kit and the "full conversion."  Is that the Andrews kit?  Thanks.