HD now has Hydra chain conversion kit!

[ederdelyi]

>>I'll say it again, then shut up <<

O.K., so I lied ... shoot me :>)

In your case, you have an "03 bike, so you would only have the Morse chain on the secondary drive. Even the earlier models can do this if they use the right ignition, but that's not an issue for you.

If your cams and other related parts are in good shape, then the HD setup you are considering is, IMO, a good option. Is the other setup from HD a "better engineered" option and markedly better solution from your perspective and intended use ... highly debatable, IMO. Worth the cost differential? Hard to say as we have no idea what your true financial status is. IMO, either one will be "better" than what you have now. I would say that the final decision would depend on the condition of the rest of the cam chest components. If you need to replace the cams, then go for the "full" changeover, otherwise the other option should be considered. It's gonna be your choice, all any of us can do is recommend what we would do, and that might not be right for you at this point in time.

The "full" kit converts the cam chest to the latest OEM version with roller chains, new pump, cam plate, cams, hydraulic tensioners, plain bearings on the outer bearings, larger diameter inner needle bearings, yada yada. Herko and now Andrews have put all the pieces together and offer it as a kit. HD just released another option which does most, but not all the same thing but allows one to use the old style cams and bearings. Just like the cereal aisle at the supermarket, one now has a few too many choices and it makes the aisle somewhat crowded as folks try to make up their mind what they want :>)

[Don D]

Bobby Woods has several of the most popular grinds available in "conversion" cams packaged with all the parts ready to go. 4 or 5 so far and more to come soon.

[91fe]

...Just like the cereal aisle at the supermarket, one now has a few too many choices and it makes the aisle somewhat crowded as folks try to make up their mind what they want :>)

Perfectly put.  Thank you all for your suggestions.

[fxrp]

...For the same or less $$$ than the HD kit you can fully convert to the roller chain so why would you want to retain any portion of the old problematic system.

And yes, at least the HD version of the Morse chain is junk. IMO

Paul

But it's not the same, or less money for the full upgrade... it's $300 more.

That's not true. The HD kit is $448 w/o cams, the complete kit from Herko, again w/o cams is under $400 he said.

edit: You're not comparing apples to apples.  You can't run Herko's kit without buying conversion cams too.

Believe me...I've been running the numbers for every part necessary to do each of the options myself.  They are:

Complete upgrade with Andrews cams and adj pushrods... $750 from Zanotti's and $862 from Herko.
HD's fix kit from Zanotti's, no cams necessary... $460.

You got 30k on those cams and lifters; you should replace the cams and lifters anyway and conversion cams are no more expensive than stock cams. I specified the prices w/o cams so yes I am comparing apples to apples.

Obviously buy and install whatever you want; but its a no brainer to me.

I said it again so now I can shut up.

Paul

[fxrp]

Bobby Woods has several of the most popular grinds available in "conversion" cams packaged with all the parts ready to go. 4 or 5 so far and more to come soon.

Didn't believe me or what? 

[91fe]

...For the same or less $$$ than the HD kit you can fully convert to the roller chain so why would you want to retain any portion of the old problematic system.

And yes, at least the HD version of the Morse chain is junk. IMO

Paul

But it's not the same, or less money for the full upgrade... it's $300 more.

That's not true. The HD kit is $448 w/o cams, the complete kit from Herko, again w/o cams is under $400 he said.

edit: You're not comparing apples to apples.  You can't run Herko's kit without buying conversion cams too.

Believe me...I've been running the numbers for every part necessary to do each of the options myself.  They are:

Complete upgrade with Andrews cams and adj pushrods... $750 from Zanotti's and $862 from Herko.
HD's fix kit from Zanotti's, no cams necessary... $460.

...I specified the prices w/o cams so yes I am comparing apples to apples.

Thanks for your input Paul.  I'm not trying to argue with you, I just want to make sure this is clear for the next guy that finds himself in my shoes.  You MUST buy new "conversion" cams to use with the full conversion kit from Herko, or elsewhere... the stock cams don't work with the conversion system  The new HD kit utilizes your stock cams, so you don't have to buy new ones.

[Herko]

"Complete upgrade with Andrews cams and adj pushrods... $750 from Zanotti's and $862 from Herko.
HD's fix kit from Zanotti's, no cams necessary... $460."

FYI...the Andrews list of components (as was the alleged complete upgrade above) + Andrews cams, and + 18404-08 PR's = less than $750.00 from me. Even less with 17997-97A pushrods. Not really my style to price things on this board but sounds like there's some misinformation out there.

Yes, I do have another kit that sell for $449.00 alone, but far more with it than what gets plugged into the Zanotti on line pricing page. This kit is designed to be complete enough to save any unwanted trips to the dealer or even the hardware store. It has things a guy might not think of until he gets into the job itself.

[91fe]

Herko,
I am very sorry if my mentioning prices was out of line.  Cost is probably the biggest deciding factor in choosing which way to go and we can't really make in informed decision with knowing how much we're going to have to pony up.  Say the word and I'll delete my post(s) that include numbers.  The last thing I want to do is piss anybody off on my first day on the job.  This forum is great... just look at our discussion here.

[fxrp]

"Complete upgrade with Andrews cams and adj pushrods... $750 from Zanotti's and $862 from Herko.
HD's fix kit from Zanotti's, no cams necessary... $460."

FYI...the Andrews list of components (as was the alleged complete upgrade above) + Andrews cams, and + 18404-08 PR's = less than $750.00 here. Even less with 17997-97A pushrods. Not really my style to price things on this board but sounds like there's some misinformation out there.

Yes, I do have another kit that sell for $449.00 alone, but far more with it than what gets plugged into the Zanotti on line pricing page. This kit is designed to be complete enough to save any unwanted trips to the dealer or even the hardware store. It has things a guy might not think of until he gets into the job itself.

Herko,

My kit @ $458 is like your kit I believe. They both include lots of little parts that are not part of the Andrews list or the HD kit; neither one includes necesssary gaskets and o-rings for example, my kit does include gaskets/o-rings as well as little things like the button head and allen head screws to mount the primary and secondary hydraulic tensioners. In fact the HD kit states "seperate purchase of cam service kit . . ." which is an additional $67.95 IIRC.

There's no longer any point to this discussion we're down to "does too"/"does not."

Paul

[ederdelyi]

Just to be clear here, I'm not pushing any of the options over another or sources. I don't sell any of this stuff, in fact, I'm no longer doing any MC motor work except for my personal use. So, I hope no one takes any of this as an endorsement or lack of one to any vendor /supplier. As stated, I try real hard to give an honest assesment based on my knowledge and personal experience with as little bias as possible. Kudos to those who honestly try to provide good solutions at fair prices ... it ain't easy to do and keep food on the table.

[91fe]

If it helps anyone, here is a list of parts and prices I'm using to compare the full conversion to HD's new fix kit.  I think my list is pretty complete and the prices are from earlier this month.  Use it, and the part numbers at your own risk.

[Herko]

If it helps anyone, here is a list of parts and prices I'm using to compare the full conversion to HD's new fix kit.  I think my list is pretty complete and the prices are from earlier this month.  Use it, and the part numbers at your own risk.

Edit: Don't want to over commercialize this thread and forum. Email me for any pricing and/or info.
Thanks.
Herko

[Billy]

Do people buy the full compliment of spacers??
You only need 1

I do. Because you don't know which one you're gonna need 'till you're doing the installation.

[fxstdavew]

You could always go back with the stock tensioners for under 100 bills.   

[fxrp]

You could always go back with the stock tensioners for under 100 bills.   

Not anymore, MSRP on the -99 tensioners went up to $65.15 each, so just tensioners is $130.30.

Paul

You don't suppose that has anything to do with the release of their new kit do ya? 

[PoorUB]

Thanks for your input Paul.  I'm not trying to argue with you, I just want to make sure this is clear for the next guy that finds himself in my shoes.  You MUST buy new "conversion" cams to use with the full conversion kit from Herko, or elsewhere... the stock cams don't work with the conversion system  The new HD kit utilizes your stock cams, so you don't have to buy new ones.

I would not be quick to condemn your stock cams. When I tore down my '05, with 44,000 miles, the cams and lifters looked almost like new, I would not be afraid to run them another 50,000 miles.

I would get your "ducks" in a row, tear the bike down, and then decide. If the original cams looks good, run 'em with HD's new plate.

If you want a bit more HP or torque, go with Herko's kit and Andrew's 21 cams. AS far as buying the kit else where, Herko will add or subtract parts, plus like he says, it is a one stop shop, all the parts you need at one time, no running around, scratching your head trying to figure out what you are missing. it is all in there.

Either way you will need to pull the rocker covers off, or buy adjustable push rods, so either the HD's conversion, or Herko's kit and Andrew's cams do not affect that decision. Myself, I kept the stock push rods as I was doing a 95" kit at the same time, but I would consider keeping the stock push rods either was as it is one less thing to deal with. The stockers are good rods, adjustables are ok too, but you hear from time to time of some problem with adjustables, loose nuts, what have you.

[harleytoprock]

So, what would be the most quiet?
1.  Morse chain with hydros
2.  Roller chain with hydros
3.  Gear drive with ideal runout and gear lash

[Kleetus]

So, what would be the most quiet?
1.  Morse chain with hydros
2.  Roller chain with hydros
3.  Gear drive with ideal runout and gear lash

Not Sure. But, I have Andrews 26G's with the S&S gear drive with over 100K miles and still running fine. No checking the shoes, no wondering if the chains are worn, no arguing about who's systems best. I just ride it and forget it because there's no plastic, nylon or whatever they make shoes and guides from to break or clog up the oil pump. I like to keep things simple.
Kleetus

[Jeffd]

I have 35,000 on my gears and it is quiet and trouble free.  I do not believe most people could tell what mine has and I have a supertrapp so not being drowned out by exhaust sound.

[fxstbob]

If one were partial to a cam not offered as a conversion, what would the cost be to have it machined to work with the full conversion?

[fxrp]

Bob Wood told me last week that he would machine one of his grinds to fit a conversion for about $100. Herko has someone but IIRC it was quite a bit more.

Paul

[96FLSTF]

Not sure if I should post this here or on a new thread, but below is a pic of the new oil pump that comes with the kit (On the right) and the OEM pump. The new pump has no o-ring seal like the original one. Guess they figure the machined surface on the SE Support Plate is good enough.

Gene

[Herko]

Not sure if I should post this here or on a new thread, but below is a pic of the new oil pump that comes with the kit (On the right) and the OEM pump. The new pump has no o-ring seal like the original one. Guess they figure the machined surface on the SE Support Plate is good enough.

Gene

Yes, same set up as the OE 07 & later models. (06 FXD's too). There may be some bypass seepage w/o the oring but the improved pump seems to compensate nicely.

Looks like you pre-lubed your new OP...this is good.

[clap]

I have made up my mind and am going with the HD kit, now will I need both the lock unlock tools to do this since I will be removing the morse chain and installing a roller with the kit. I hate to buy the 1 tool just to remove one time and never use again.
Clap

[Don D]

I don't use them. Lock the rear brake and the retainer bolts can be removed or replaced and torqued.