Injector timing

[ViennaHog]

Take both plugs out and crank any Delphi-equipped TC and there is no spark.

[Eleft36]

I've got maps both before and after Dan's modifications..

The original shows 400 deg and the new map shows 364 on both maps.. Almost all the way to the other end of the setting..

Al,
One thing you might want to do when changing the injector timing is readjust the ignition timing some and back off the the AFR.. Sounds like the motor might be a little retarded (glowing red pipe) and it's showing up when you change the injector timing... You can also pull fuel and pick up on mileage.

FWIW I didn't see any difference in the exhaust color going from 400 to 364 but I've been able to lean out the maps at partial throttle and squeeze some more mileage out of the EGC.. My 02 RKC I've not done much cept ride it.. It runs better.

I'm guessing but suspect it number is injector pulse timing in degrees from TDC compression stroke or possibly the ignition event..

Max

Bruce,
I changed from 865 to 876 because the fuel curve is farther out and the timing is ahead. Let's say it looks better.
  I left the 876 and changed injector timing back to the 865 setting of 400 and it seems fine. Not many miles on the 876 map, I only put 20 on @ 392 timing; right thigh really felt the heat quickly. 876 map seems to use a lighter throttle it idles good no ping or pops and I added some pulse fuel to start quicker. Mufflers sound lower pitched. Exhaust is from a CVO Softail Convertible and still has cats, quiet enough to hear the intake.
The 865 mileage was a constant 39+ and ran descent, with the ign timing and slightly leaner afr I'm expecting a little better from map 876.

Al
PS had 67 & 76 transposed; oops    --- corrected to 876

[Admiral Akbar]

Bruce,
I changed from 865 to 876 because the fuel curve is farther out and the timing is ahead. Let's say it looks better.
  I left the 876 and changed injector timing back to the 865 setting of 400 and it seems fine. Not many miles on the 876 map, I only put 20 on @ 392 timing; right thigh really felt the heat quickly. 876 map seems to use a lighter throttle it idles good no ping or pops and I added some pulse fuel to start quicker. Mufflers sound lower pitched. Exhaust is from a CVO Softail Convertible and still has cats, quiet enough to hear the intake.
The 865 mileage was a constant 39+ and ran descent, with the ign timing and slightly leaner afr I'm expecting a little better from map 876.

Al
PS had 67 & 76 transposed; oops    --- corrected to 876

Al,
I'm not sure what you are saying about AFR being further out.. As far as I can tell the 2 maps have the same AFR table.. You can use control-q to copy all the tables from map to another then compare old to new in one table after resetting the markers.. Timing is different but not too far off.. The newer table has more low throttle timing than the other at higher rpm.. Might stop some decel popping but usually the throttle needs to be open wider (less timing) do do anything under load.

Max

[Eleft36]

Bruce,
I changed from 865 to 876 because the fuel curve is farther out and the timing is ahead. Let's say it looks better.
  I left the 876 and changed injector timing back to the 865 setting of 400 and it seems fine. Not many miles on the 876 map, I only put 20 on @ 392 timing; right thigh really felt the heat quickly. 876 map seems to use a lighter throttle it idles good no ping or pops and I added some pulse fuel to start quicker. Mufflers sound lower pitched. Exhaust is from a CVO Softail Convertible and still has cats, quiet enough to hear the intake.
The 865 mileage was a constant 39+ and ran descent, with the ign timing and slightly leaner afr I'm expecting a little better from map 876.

Al
PS had 67 & 76 transposed; oops    --- corrected to 876

Al,
I'm not sure what you are saying about AFR being further out.. As far as I can tell the 2 maps have the same AFR table.. You can use control-q to copy all the tables from map to another then compare old to new in one table after resetting the markers.. Timing is different but not too far off.. The newer table has more low throttle timing than the other at higher rpm.. Might stop some decel popping but usually the throttle needs to be open wider (less timing) do do anything under load.

Max

Thanks for the "q" tip; here's the screen shot of 865 afr with the 876 afr pasted. It's what I mentioned as farther out, in tps #s.
Neither map had any popping.
Al
Al

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[rbabos]

Take both plugs out and crank any Delphi-equipped TC and there is no spark.

There is also no MAP signal with the plugs out due to the pistons not being able to pull vacumn. I have a problem buying the crank slowing theory at 9k on a v rod.
Ron

[ultraswede]

I have a problem buying the crank slowing theory at 9k on a v rod.

Crank slowing we are discusing here is for determining which cylinder is at compression during cranking for start up.

[FLTRI]

...
Crank slowing we are discusing here is for determining which cylinder is at compression during cranking for start up.

Yep, along with CPS.
Bob

[Coyote]

Take both plugs out and crank any Delphi-equipped TC and there is no spark.

There is also no MAP signal with the plugs out due to the pistons not being able to pull vacumn. I have a problem buying the crank slowing theory at 9k on a v rod.
Ron

I think it's only relevant on startup. After that, the ECM knows which cycle it's on.

[Admiral Akbar]

Take both plugs out and crank any Delphi-equipped TC and there is no spark.

There is also no MAP signal with the plugs out due to the pistons not being able to pull vacumn. I have a problem buying the crank slowing theory at 9k on a v rod.
Ron

Lets see.

9000 rpm = 150 rev / sec 

30 slots + 2 for the missing slots is 4800 slots per second.. Lets call it 5000 slots per second.. or 1/5000 = 200 us / slot..

Don't you think that a good micro processor could easily differentiate a 198 us slot from a 202 us slot in real time?  Most of these guys that are not super power savers (battery operated) have cores that run in the 100 Mhz range and execute instructions in the 50 MHZ range easily..

Technically it's probably 2 pulses per slot but they could also measure the time for say 3-5 slots throw a little filtering in there for good measure..

Max

Add.. us = microsecond..

Max

[wurk_truk]

Take both plugs out and crank any Delphi-equipped TC and there is no spark.

There is also no MAP signal with the plugs out due to the pistons not being able to pull vacumn. I have a problem buying the crank slowing theory at 9k on a v rod.
Ron

I think it's only relevant on startup. After that, the ECM knows which cycle it's on.

I agree.  Once it knows..... it knows until engine is shut off.  All of that is for the ECM to figure out which CPS signal is the correct one.  No name said EFI bikes with Delphi uses the MAP to help with crank slowing to determine which tooth to use on the CPS, fo start up.  Who knows?  They start.

After a point the injectors will be one the whole time anyways.  I was told that cam tool, for example only really works up to like 2500ish rpms anyways.  That SOUNDS like (but guessing) that is around where the injectors start to be almost always ON.?  AT 3000 rpms, the injector is fired 25 times a second.  Somewhere, there will be a deal where the injector is for all intents and purposes ON.  There IS some lag inherent, due to it is an electrical/mechanical device and the actual plunger will not be able to keep up with the signals.  Where that point is?  I have no clue.  but at 1000 rpms, the injector is firing at only a little over 8 times a second.

Either when the injector fires is not really important, or there is some kind of software thing in the ECM, using all the various sensors, that tells when to fire.  How else can we swap all of the various cams, and the bike still runs great?  AND... there is the shared plenum thing.  NOT like a car at all in that regards.  Can't swap spit in a car.  6in runners and all of that really separates the fuel better.

No Name reiterated that the 'cam tool' does NOT alter fuel timing, so...  we can all guess a bunch but never know.  Wish FBRR was still around.  It IS an interesting question.

[FSG]

No name said EFI bikes with Delphi uses the MAP to help with crank slowing to determine which tooth to use on the CPS, fo start up.  Who knows?  They start.

Really, which tooth to use on the CPS!!!!     More misinformation.

The CPS is a sensor, actually the "Crank Position Sensor" and last time I looked it didn't have any teeth.   On the other hand the Crankshaft has teeth, 2 of which are missing so that when the ECM receives the string of pulses from the CPS it knows where the Crankshaft is within the rotation.

Pull the plugs and hit the starter.  The ECM receives the CPS signal so it knows the crank is turning and it knows it's position but it doesn't know what stroke it's on.  Release the starter button, put the plugs back in and hit the starter again.  Now from the CPS signal  the ECM can see the crank slowing as #1 comes up on compression. 

[rbabos]

Take both plugs out and crank any Delphi-equipped TC and there is no spark.

There is also no MAP signal with the plugs out due to the pistons not being able to pull vacumn. I have a problem buying the crank slowing theory at 9k on a v rod.
Ron

Lets see.

9000 rpm = 150 rev / sec 

30 slots + 2 for the missing slots is 4800 slots per second.. Lets call it 5000 slots per second.. or 1/5000 = 200 us / slot..

Don't you think that a good micro processor could easily differentiate a 198 us slot from a 202 us slot in real time?  Most of these guys that are not super power savers (battery operated) have cores that run in the 100 Mhz range and execute instructions in the 50 MHZ range easily..

Technically it's probably 2 pulses per slot but they could also measure the time for say 3-5 slots throw a little filtering in there for good measure..

Max

Add.. us = microsecond..

Max

Well, I can't argue with the logic here.
Ron

[FLTRI]

So when does the injector fire in relation to the valve opening event?
Before or after the valve opens?
Bob

[ultraswede]

A long thread where we actually can measure and settle the discussion.

Anyone with the time and a oscilloscope?

[Rider57]

I have the scope and the time but, which cam?

[ultraswede]

If one knows the ignition advance at any given time (logging or setting the ignition to 0 degree in the cal for testing purpose ), and relate that event to the opening/close of the injector for that cylinder, we have our answer.
Measuring on two channels is of cause necessary in this case.

[FLTRI]

I have the scope and the time but, which cam?

I guess you can pick one or two...say stock vs SE260 vs TW9f...or anything else will do.
Thanks,
Bob

[wurk_truk]

Duh!  And the ECM HAS to pick which missing tooth then, right?  I kind of figured we would ALL know how a CPS and the teeth work.  So, this is no fun and have at it.  I see how it's going.  Misinformation?  How is picking which tooth misinformation?  Thats what crank slowing does, right?  Pick the 'tooth'.  Next time I will be way more specific.  GEEZE!  Pure semantics. AND...  Playing with them is foolish and demeaning to me.  I don't feel I deserve that, either.

I have a scope, but NO way... whatever it is I post is wrong.

[FLTRI]

So we still have no agreement as to when the injector fires (before or after valve opens)?

Bob

[Rider57]

The injector fires on a closed valve. Unless someone really screws up installing the cams. Always has, probably always will until DI is used on Harleys.

[FLTRI]

The injector fires on a closed valve. Unless someone really screws up installing the cams. Always has, probably always will until DI is used on Harleys.

thought so    BWTFDWK?
Funny how some feel it can't happen that way. Lol
Bob

[Admiral Akbar]

The injector fires on a closed valve. Unless someone really screws up installing the cams. Always has, probably always will until DI is used on Harleys.

So you checked it with the scope?

Max

[rbabos]

The injector fires on a closed valve. Unless someone really screws up installing the cams. Always has, probably always will until DI is used on Harleys.

So you checked it with the scope?

Max

Don't think it would pass EPA any other way. Fuel needs to hit the hot valve to vaporize it the most it can. Just my usual uneducated guess.
Ron

[Rider57]

Yes, it has been checked with a scope, here in the shop and while I worked for the EPA.

[ultraswede]

Yes, it has been checked with a scope, here in the shop and while I worked for the EPA.