Target tune closer to coming to market?

[upnorthbiker]

TT log off a Vrod.  Notice the indicated lean areas in the lower KPA areas.  Typical of what I see with reversion and 4.2's.  Sampling problem area's are problem sample areas.  Tuning devices don't fix poor sample quality.
[/quote]

Hi Hardtail78,
I am no expert so excuse me for asking what might be stupid questions,
Is it reversion that causes the poor sampling or poor lambda install locations ? Or both.
Reduce the reversion, get some back pressure by say modify baffle or go closed endcap on Supertrapp exhaust, could that be a fix ?
Do you the expert have a logical routine to find out what's causing bad sampling through your experiences or is it just try something and run tests until it's good enough to setup a tune ?
Thanks for your input.
Jeff

[whittlebeast]

Jason

It looks like the Vrod is railing the MAP sensor at 10.3 KPA

This is almost impossible to troubleshoot without PW front and rear

Andy

[upnorthbiker]

Jason

It looks like the Vrod is railing the MAP sensor at 10.3 KPA

This is almost impossible to troubleshoot without PW front and rear

Andy

Hi Andy,
What does "railing" the map sensor actually mean in English ?
Jeff

[whittlebeast]

All sensors have upper and lower limits.  In the case of lots of engine sensors the limits of the outputs is say .2 volts on the low side to say 4.8 volts on the high side.

.2 volts may be calibrated in the sensor in this case to be equal to 10.3 KPA and 4.8 volts may be 103 KPA.  PS I made up the numbers to make the point.   Someone will soon chine in to call my a lair.

If the sensor ever gets to on of these limits, it is refereed to railing the sensor.  Like hitting the rails of a train track.  You can't go any farther.

The dead giveaway is the voltage on a log does not move at all for a long period of time.

[hrdtail78]

Jason

It looks like the Vrod is railing the MAP sensor at 10.3 KPA

This is almost impossible to troubleshoot without PW front and rear

Andy

That's how I received the file.  No target AFR either. 

[upnorthbiker]

Hi,
When the MAP is at 10.3 the bikes on the over run, slowing down from 60mph tps 28 to TPS 0 and 1, then he gets the throttle on again and the MAP rises. Is that not how it works ?
Jeff

[whittlebeast]

Yes.  The only thing is that the 10.3 most likely is a result of railing the sensor.  Who knows what the exact real MAP is?  10.3 is not way wrong.

Andy

[upnorthbiker]

Thanks Andy, so because it's reached the lower limit of the MAP sensor it's a fault or problem ?
I'm only trying to learn and make spence of it.
Jeff

[Karl H.]

I can see a kind of clipping of the lower MAP sensor voltage. What's indicating the "lean area" mentioned by hrdtail?



Karl

[hrdtail78]

TT log off a Vrod.  Notice the indicated lean areas in the lower KPA areas.  Typical of what I see with reversion and 4.2's.  Sampling problem area's are problem sample areas.  Tuning devices don't fix poor sample quality.

Hi Hardtail78,
I am no expert so excuse me for asking what might be stupid questions,
Is it reversion that causes the poor sampling or poor lambda install locations ? Or both.
Reduce the reversion, get some back pressure by say modify baffle or go closed endcap on Supertrapp exhaust, could that be a fix ?
Do you the expert have a logical routine to find out what's causing bad sampling through your experiences or is it just try something and run tests until it's good enough to setup a tune ?
Thanks for your input.
Jeff
[/quote]

All pipes have reversion.  That's how they work.  Plenty of exhaust theory out there based on steps, tunable disc, anti reversion cones........  Plenty of books written on the subject by smarter people than me.

"Is it reversion that causes the poor sampling or poor lambda install locations ? Or both."

Both because they are different problems.  Reversion that is a problem is going to pull fresh air into the exhaust over the sensor and into the chamber.  This can skew the readings at the sensor to the lean side.  This can also cause fuel standoff that can affect the air fuel charge going into the cylinder.  Not so much a problem with choked up stock exhaust that is also choked up with a cat.  Problems get worse when you have a combo and a pipe that will support 160hp but still wants to be rode on the street and parking lots with manors.  This has nothing to do with sensor placement.  A great placed sensor might just be getting a good reading of the reverted air.

The fix.  Choke down the exhaust.  Map VE's and set up the calibration so the ECM wont change the area.  Unchoke exhaust and see how it runs in the area.  I have seen the O2 bounce around at idle from 14-15 something.  Shove something up the exhaust and watch the AFR level and settle at 13.8.  When that test works.  It is a good sign that reversion is skewing the input.

Probably why this thing came out.  To stop lean decel popping cause by reversion.  That is still fresh air in the pipe.  I have making them out of freeze plugs for years.  I just debur the thing.

http://www.zippersperformance.com/all-products/exhaust-systems-components/exhaust-accessories-and-components/dual-exhaust-pop-stopper.html   

[upnorthbiker]

Thanks for the info Hrdtail78.
This is what's great about this forum.
Jeff

[hrdtail78]

Thanks Andy, so because it's reached the lower limit of the MAP sensor it's a fault or problem ?
I'm only trying to learn and make spence of it.
Jeff

I have never seen it as a problem.  That is a hard decel that is 10.3.  Some of the BT cals have 20 as the lowest and some have 15.  All matters on what you are idling at and when map is being polled.

Basically we are telling the ECM that we are decelerating.  I can't speak for TT but with the HD ECM code.  We aren't in CL mode.  We are in decel mode.

I am curious about what TT does to the mode the ECM is in.  It is only my assumption that it still works like stock.  Steady state is in CL.  While rapid throttle or RPM change will take it out of CL and fuel is based back on VE table.  I haven't heard of a CL system that is 100% full time CL.

[whittlebeast]

I think this is an example of this "Reversion"  "Bad Sampling" thing.

http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/PossibleReversion1.png

http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/PossibleReversion2.png

http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/PossibleReversion3.png

Here is the raw data log

http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/log0013.csv

[hrdtail78]

I can see a kind of clipping of the lower MAP sensor voltage. What's indicating the "lean area" mentioned by hrdtail?



Karl

Look right past the 700 Zeit mark.  Map is right at 18 and slowly climbing as the WBO2 is above 15.  The low KPA between 760 and 780 is info that I would filter out of the equation, and most systems have a CL low limit of around 20 kpa depending on how it is set up.

[upnorthbiker]

Well, it's no secret that it was my log you put on, and that's no problem at all.
I know it's a bit lean below 3000rpm, but I only did 2 x 15 minute autotune runs before the log and that was with a canned map from DJ closest to my configuration. And to be honest the bike runs ok, could be better, but sings over 3000rpm always has.
Weather permitting I will do some more at the weekend and include Pulse width front and rear on the log. Anything other channels ?
Might do with a closed end cap as well to see the difference.
Be good to do this before the real winter sets in,
Jeff

[rbabos]

I believe the vrod drops out of closed loop at just below 20. I see 10 on harder decels also. General idle kpa are in the mid to high 20s.
Ron

[hrdtail78]

I thought you had a touring rig with a 255 cam?  The log I posted was emailed to me and is a Vrod.  Which is perfect for the example others were looking for.  They are known to be poor sampling bikes in the lower KPA areas, and I have tuned enough to know that what I described in the above post on how I deal with poor sampling seems to work for me.

[hrdtail78]

I believe the vrod drops out of closed loop at just below 20. I see 10 on harder decels also. General idle kpa are in the mid to high 20s.
Ron

That's part of why I asked about this.  Regular HD code is 20-80. (for Vrod)  How does TT do this and what are the limits.  We know the raised the upper limit.  Did the lower the low limit?

[rbabos]

Well, it's no secret that it was my log you put on, and that's no problem at all.
I know it's a bit lean below 3000rpm, but I only did 2 x 15 minute autotune runs before the log and that was with a canned map from DJ closest to my configuration. And to be honest the bike runs ok, could be better, but sings over 3000rpm always has.
Weather permitting I will do some more at the weekend and include Pulse width front and rear on the log. Anything other channels ?
Might do with a closed end cap as well to see the difference.
Be good to do this before the real winter sets in,
Jeff

Are you running fatshots on the factory 3rd volume like me? I have closed end caps and still went through the same bs with 12 discs per can. Wonder if like Jason said, possibly remove more discs and closed cap to dial in the low end ve's with more restriction? However, if that works it will need to be placed into open loop in that area after the fact. Mossy73 has an Akro pipe with the same issue. One can so a custom made frost plug might work there. Two completely different pipes and sensor locations makes one believe reversion is the main culprit in these bikes.
If you have fatshots, the discs can be reduced with either cutting bands out of thin metal, bending a couple of tabs and screw the tabs with the band snuggly on the discs od. Or be lazy like me and use rad hose clamps to reduce exhaust outflow.
Ron

[hrdtail78]

Mossy73 has an Akro pipe with the same issue.

Almost brought up that pipe as an example.  2007 FL 96" S&S 510 procharged and that pipe.

[upnorthbiker]

I'm running fatshots, open end caps with 2discs in each slipon which is equal to closed endcap and 12 discs. Plus we have a cat in the UK. Not sure about getting ve right then going open loop in those areas, TT is a fully closed loop system using the wide bands enables it to be closed loop at all afr.
Jeff

[upnorthbiker]

All sensors have upper and lower limits.  In the case of lots of engine sensors the limits of the outputs is say .2 volts on the low side to say 4.8 volts on the high side.

.2 volts may be calibrated in the sensor in this case to be equal to 10.3 KPA and 4.8 volts may be 103 KPA.  PS I made up the numbers to make the point.

Hi Andy,
Your no liar and very close on the numbers you made up,
MAP sensor range 0v to 5.1v. 10 kpa to 104 kpa

Jeff

[rbabos]

I'm running fatshots, open end caps with 2discs in each slipon which is equal to closed endcap and 12 discs. Plus we have a cat in the UK. Not sure about getting ve right then going open loop in those areas, TT is a fully closed loop system using the wide bands enables it to be closed loop at all afr.
Jeff

That's the holy grail, getting the ve right. Will it do this or keep spinning it's wheels in rich/lean cycles in the low end depending on conditions? That's what I'm curious about.

[upnorthbiker]

Forgot to add, location of wide bands. Stock 12mm bung holes were drilled out to accept 18mm bungs. You are a bit limited to bung locations with stock head pipes.
Jeff

[rbabos]

Forgot to add, location of wide bands. Stock 12mm bung holes were drilled out to accept 18mm bungs. You are a bit limited to bung locations with stock head pipes.
Jeff

I was going to ask about that.  I came to the conclusion drill and tap was a possible.  How tight was it near the clutch on the rear with larger WB sensors? Funny how the front location looks better then the rear, yet the front is the problem child, even Chris's with the Akro pipe with totally different locations. Leads one to believe it's reversion more then anything else. Stock cans look really restrictive in comparision, reducing the problem.
Ron