TTS Tuners/Users: Food for thought?

[WVULTRA]

I've noticed a lot of riders wanting input on the "best" cam for a 96" Bagger with lots of bottom end.  I too was in this position over the winter and upgraded to the Crane 300-2s with an +4 crank gear (thanks Herko!) that so far feels great to the "butt dyno".

My interest right now is am I using the TTS VTune software to it's fullest by starting with the PZ176 (96" Stage1 w/optional slip-ons) map?  I did decrease the Injector Size in Constants to fatten up the overall map since initially I was maxing out the VEs with the base map.  This procedure is mentioned in the new TTS Tuning Manual; however I get the feeling that increasing the engine's CI in Constants may be preferred.  If so, +5% seems to be a good starting point IIRC.  If I increase the CI 5%, then I'm close to 103 Cubic Inches (101" actual).

So now I'm thinking with optional cams that are similar (IMO) to the SE 255s, and needing ~101 CI, why not take the PS176 map (103", 255 Cams, Stage1 A/C, and optional exhaust) and reduce the CI in Constants to 96" and try that?  IMO, this just seems like a "logical" approach but I may be way off base here!

Herko posted a sweet Dyno Tune here:  http://harleytechtalk.net/htt/index.php?topic=9386.msg100809#msg100809  and this also brings up my next question of would either of these two maps be an ideal starting map with the same configuration (96" & mild cams) but instead using Tru Duals?

Hope this sparks some interests............

Thanks!

[Blackbaggr]

 


Steve, Herko, Bob

[WVULTRA]

To further feed my curiosity, I opened up two instances of MT for a comparison of the two maps (PZ176 & PS176).  Going through each of the Tables, I see that are minor differences in:

F&R VEs
AE
DE
IAC CtoR

Of course the VEs for the 103" map are understandably higher; but not a large amount.

My main concern is what I think are significant differences in the Spark Tables.  But this is from my untrained eyes.

And the Constants are identical except for CI.

[FLTRI]

I would start with the 103 map and see how that works for VE. If you need to reduce the VEs then reduce the ci instead.
Second guessing the fuel requirements for a cam that "looks" like it may be similar to a SE255 gives you 10-15% chance it will be as expected, so may as well just try what you have first then go from there.
Hope this helps,
Bob

[WVULTRA]

Bob:

Was reminded of the Yuill Brothers maps that are included with the latest TTS Cals:

File Name: YA176-000-A1.MT7
Application: 2007-2009 'All Market' Touring Exhaust with O2 Sensors
Configuration: 1580 Yuill Stage 2 with Elite D Pipes
Components:
-- A/C and Breather Kit
-- Yuill Elite D Pipes
-- Yuill YB12S-07 Cams

I realize their cams may not be close, but looking at the specs they're not too far off.  And the Elite D is their Tru Dual pipes.

In your opinion, for Tru Duals, would this be a better candidate for a starter map vs. the PS176 103" map?

Thanks, and I really appreciate your feedback.

[FLTRI]

You probably were not expecting this answer but:
It's no more than a crap shoot so may as well try it and others till you find one that at least "feels" ok.
Cam differences basically dictate the personality of the engine and everything around it ideally complements the cam's profile. That said, cam profile differences affect the cylinder's fuel requirements throughout the rpm/tp range.
And that said, the exhaust system design will also change the fuel requirements. Heads, compression, intake, injector size, and air filter all alter the fuel requirements.
And all that said:
1) Pick a calibration based on the cam profile.
2) Modify the constants to reflect fact.
3) Ride the bike with taped off throttle grip and note any poor running behavior @ TP/RPM.
4) Come back and address the TP/RPM range the condition was found.
5) Repeat until the bike runs ok everwhere.
6) Take it to a competent tuner to get it to run perfect everywhere.
There ya have it from a guy who recalibrates Harley and aftermarket EFI systems every day.
Bob

[WVULTRA]

Bob:
I appreciate your explanation, and I fully realize it's a crap-shoot.  Using Big Boyz Cam Comparator, my specs yield:

              LIFT             DURATION          TIMING             C/L                TDC
INT:        0.505            226.0               17/29                 96.0             0.147   
EXH:        0.505            236.0               46/10                 108.0             0.152

And Yuill Brothers' published specs for the YB12S-07 are:

              LIFT            DURATION          TIMING                C/L              TDC
INT:        0.510            236.0               20/36                  98                 0.184
EXH:        0.510            254.0               54/20                  107              0.171


Via my untrained eye, these specs look more similar than the SE255. 

Hope this makes sense............

Thanks for your experienced comments.

[Herko]

There's no magic pill (map) that will all of the sudden make a bike run the best it can be.
Bikes have to be tuned. Investing time and energy in the tune process with whatever the tuning device and calibration being used is what's important.

Yes, a good starter cal helps, but giving the build what it wants is key. If you're well on the way to a good tune with a certain cal, why scrap that project and look for a rainbow?

As far as raising the ceiling for VE's maxing out, I've done it both with cubes and injector sizes. Both work. But what are we affecting with a cube change vs. Inj size change? (Maybe another thread on this subject).

True duals vs 2:1 on the same bike: With tuning, the same base cal can be used initially, and great results can be had by giving the build the fuel and ignition it's looking for. But it had to be tuned to get there.

Cam X vs. cam Y on the same bike: With tuning, the same base cal can be used initially, and great results can be had by giving the build the fuel and ignition it's looking for. But it had to be tuned to get there.

Sometimes I go against the book of Hoyle when it comes to what cal I use to start with for a tune. I look for characteristics of cals that we don't have adjustment tables for. One I like for milder builds is a cal that will take the injectors to 0.0 ms (no fuel) during decel. To me this is a cleaner way to control decel pop. Sometimes getting a handle on controlling the abruptness of the engine response on which fuel is reintroduced can be a challenge. But, this is one example that without direct tables to control something, I try to avoid areas of getting the right result for the wrong reason. Kind of a balancing act sometimes. But, these out-of-Hoyle starter cals have always ended up with great results. These great results come from a process of tuning, not a magic pill.

[WVULTRA]

One I like for milder builds is a cal that will take the injectors to 0.0 ms (no fuel) during decel. To me this is a cleaner way to control decel pop.

One of the best maps I ran with the SERT and my '05RK was based on a Dyna starter map.  That map too "0'd" the injectors during zero throttle decel.

Agree that there's no magic pill (map) to make these bikes run their best; but IMO searching for the best starter map, especially when the components are not exact or similar to the stock cals, is a natural for those that are serious about learning/using the VTune software prior to getting that final tune with a competent Dyno Operator.

Cube change vs. Injector size change would be an interesting thread.

Thanks for your feedback John! 

[FLTRI]

.....is a natural for those that are serious about learning/using the VTune software prior to getting that final tune with a competent Dyno Operator.

As long as you realize the V-tune only applies to 07-up, closed loop bikes.

[WVULTRA]

.....is a natural for those that are serious about learning/using the VTune software prior to getting that final tune with a competent Dyno Operator.

As long as you realize the V-tune only applies to 07-up, closed loop bikes.

[RoadKingKohn]

.....is a natural for those that are serious about learning/using the VTune software prior to getting that final tune with a competent Dyno Operator.

As long as you realize the V-tune only applies to 07-up, closed loop bikes.

And 05 bikes that have DTT WEGO II O2 sensors with 06 heads and throttle bodies on them. 

[Scotty]

I have seen a few people comment on this, but never seen an answer as to how you wired up wide band o2 sensors to the stock ECM and got them to work with v-tune.

Enquiring minds would like to know please.

I do know of one way that the guy from the nightrider site has mentioned but you have never mentioned any extras being attached.

[Herko]

"....with 06 heads and throttle bodies on them. "

Curious how these heads and TB make a difference?

[RoadKingKohn]

"....with 06 heads and throttle bodies on them. "

Curious how these heads and TB make a difference?

They don't make a difference to setting up for the O2 sensors.  I was just giving a run down on what I had done.  I had put the 06 heads on in Feb 07 and had been running a Gerolamy TB with my DTT TCFI II.  Then after talking with FLTRI about tuning with the TTS that I purchased from you.  I determined that I didn't want to do the work needed to the Gerolamy in order to make it work.  So I went with a 06 TB that I had and changed the needed plugs to fit the 06 connection.  So the 06 heads are on because they flow better and the 06 TB flows more than 05s.

[Scotty]

Could you answer my question as well please?   

[RoadKingKohn]

I have seen a few people comment on this, but never seen an answer as to how you wired up wide band o2 sensors to the stock ECM and got them to work with v-tune.

Enquiring minds would like to know please.

I do know of one way that the guy from the nightrider site has mentioned but you have never mentioned any extras being attached.

First I need to know what year and model of bike that you have.

[Scotty]

I just want to know how you wired wide band O2 sensors from a DTT TCFI to your bike and stock ECM and got them to work with V-tune and the TTS

Let's just say I have a bike that is the same year as yours with the same throttle body and everything just like yours.

[RoadKingKohn]

I just want to know how you wired wide band O2 sensors from a DTT TCFI to your bike and stock ECM and got them to work with V-tune and the TTS

Let's just say I have a bike that is the same year as yours with the same throttle body and everything just like yours.

All I did was follow the instruction for installing the WEGO II and then started using the TTS and the VTune program.  I have been getting P0113 codes that might be related to using the wide band sensors.  If I did already have the WEGO II I would have just purchased the HD O2 sensors and plugged them in.

[Scotty]

So basically you don't have V-tune working as they don't read wide band O2 sensors and even if you have them plugged into the WEGO box it can't be plugged into the diagnostics port the same time as the TTS tuner anyway.
I think your riding around believing something is working when it is quite obvious that it can't based on your above statement.
You need to remove the wide band sensors and run the 2 wire OEM ones and connect up new wiring to the correct ports on the ECM and to a +5v power source.

[RoadKingKohn]

So basically you don't have V-tune working as they don't read wide band O2 sensors and even if you have them plugged into the WEGO box it can't be plugged into the diagnostics port the same time as the TTS tuner anyway.
I think your riding around believing something is working when it is quite obvious that it can't based on your above statement.
You need to remove the wide band sensors and run the 2 wire OEM ones and connect up new wiring to the correct ports on the ECM and to a +5v power source.

No. Actually it is working and it does adjust the VE tables.  The WEGO box allows you to adjust the O2 sensors to atmosphere.  The WEGO box then plugs into the pin locations for the O2 sensors on the ECM that HD points out.  The problem I have is that I might be grounded to the wrong place and that is why my IAT keeps on giving me the P0113 code.

[FLTRI]

So if I'm reading you correctly, you have somehow turned a narrow band, closed loop system into a wide band closed loop system?
So the ECM was ready for wide band sensors all the time and can read and adjust as necessary? WOW!
If this can be verified, companies making old-technology wide band auto-tune systems will be out of business overnight once this Delphi wide band "upgrade" becomes a known option.
Please forward the specific procedure for this upgrade as I'm sure there are a few members that own WEGO stuff and an 07-up bike to try it on.
Thanks,
Bob

[Scotty]

I think your digging a hole your going to have trouble getting out of.

The Delphi ECM does not work with those sensors how you believe they do.

[RoadKingKohn]

Okay let me explain again what I did.

The bike in question is a 2005 FLHRCI with a 06 throttle body and heads and HQ-0034-G cam and about 9.9 to 1 compression.

I had an DTT TCFI II.  The #4 pin on it went dead and my fuel pump would not work.  I put my old ECM back in and the fuel pump would work.  All this time I left the WEGO parts in place and plugged in.

Purchased a TTS from Herko and first uploaded a 141 program but found out after reading the instructions again that I could not use a 141 program and use VTune.  Next I uploaded a 176 program and then ran the DataMaster and Vtune programs.  On the first run the VTune showed some VE cells (about 10) that were off so I created the new file, uploaded it and then did it again.  Second time I ran and the VE cells (3 this time) showed a slight pink.  Created a new program and uploaded it.  Bike has been running great ever since.

Now since fixing a short in my left hand control the P0113 IAT has not been coming on.  It has also been in the 40s to 50s when I have been riding of late and might be why the code is not coming on.  Before I was getting the code when it was in the 70s and still had the short.

But if it isn't supposed to be working why is it adjusting the VEs?

[Unbalanced]

Okay let me explain again what I did.

The bike in question is a 2005 FLHRCI with a 06 throttle body and heads and HQ-0034-G cam and about 9.9 to 1 compression.

I had an DTT TCFI II.  The #4 pin on it went dead and my fuel pump would not work.  I put my old ECM back in and the fuel pump would work.  All this time I left the WEGO parts in place and plugged in.

Purchased a TTS from Herko and first uploaded a 141 program but found out after reading the instructions again that I could not use a 141 program and use VTune.  Next I uploaded a 176 program and then ran the DataMaster and Vtune programs.  On the first run the VTune showed some VE cells (about 10) that were off so I created the new file, uploaded it and then did it again.  Second time I ran and the VE cells (3 this time) showed a slight pink.  Created a new program and uploaded it.  Bike has been running great ever since.

Now since fixing a short in my left hand control the P0113 IAT has not been coming on.  It has also been in the 40s to 50s when I have been riding of late and might be why the code is not coming on.  Before I was getting the code when it was in the 70s and still had the short.

But if it isn't supposed to be working why is it adjusting the VEs?

RoadkingKohn,

I am curious about your installation with the WegoII, since the WegoII came with Deutsch Connectors on the Wide Band Sensors, you made no mention of converting them to the black plug that Harley uses on the oem narrow band.   Which wires did you use to make this work for your widebands to act like narrow bands 2 wire vs. 5 wire (correct me if mistaken about the wire numbers I am too lazy atm to go into the garage to validate).   Curious which Wego Parts other than the Wide Bands you left in place as only one item either the Wego or the ECM can be connected to the dataport?   Appreciate your info and help as I am Wego II owner as well and you have sparked my curiousity greatly.

[FLTRI]

I put my old ECM (Stock OEM Delphi?) back in and the fuel pump would work.  All this time I left the WEGO parts in place and plugged in.

To What???

Now since fixing a short in my left hand control the P0113 IAT has not been coming on.

What does the left hand control have to do with the intake air temp sensor?

But if it isn't supposed to be working why is it adjusting the VEs?

I don't know but I will certainly be talking with Steve Cole about this.

[frydaddy96]

I'm curious what your AFR is?  I'm wondering if the ECM isn't defaulting to some predetermined AFR and that is why it is changing the VE's.  Just my 2 cents, since the ECM is not suppose to be able to read WB sensors.  ?   

[RoadKingKohn]

Okay let me explain again what I did.

The bike in question is a 2005 FLHRCI with a 06 throttle body and heads and HQ-0034-G cam and about 9.9 to 1 compression.

I had an DTT TCFI II.  The #4 pin on it went dead and my fuel pump would not work.  I put my old ECM back in and the fuel pump would work.  All this time I left the WEGO parts in place and plugged in.

Purchased a TTS from Herko and first uploaded a 141 program but found out after reading the instructions again that I could not use a 141 program and use VTune.  Next I uploaded a 176 program and then ran the DataMaster and Vtune programs.  On the first run the VTune showed some VE cells (about 10) that were off so I created the new file, uploaded it and then did it again.  Second time I ran and the VE cells (3 this time) showed a slight pink.  Created a new program and uploaded it.  Bike has been running great ever since.

Now since fixing a short in my left hand control the P0113 IAT has not been coming on.  It has also been in the 40s to 50s when I have been riding of late and might be why the code is not coming on.  Before I was getting the code when it was in the 70s and still had the short.

But if it isn't supposed to be working why is it adjusting the VEs?

RoadkingKohn,

I am curious about your installation with the WegoII, since the WegoII came with Deutsch Connectors on the Wide Band Sensors, you made no mention of converting them to the black plug that Harley uses on the oem narrow band.   Which wires did you use to make this work for your widebands to act like narrow bands 2 wire vs. 5 wire (correct me if mistaken about the wire numbers I am too lazy atm to go into the garage to validate).   Curious which Wego Parts other than the Wide Bands you left in place as only one item either the Wego or the ECM can be connected to the dataport?   Appreciate your info and help as I am Wego II owner as well and you have sparked my curiousity greatly.

I just left it all hooked up as it was when the DTT TCFI II was in.  They are 5 wires.  I believe that some of the wires are there to preheat the sensor.  On DTT website it also states that the sensors are "0-5V analog AFR output for interface to dyno instrumentation".  So does that not solve the 5V problem?  I'm asking cause I haven't a clue.

Correct me if I am wrong guys.  But isn't the WEGO II the same as the TwinScan II just minus the program?  And yet the TwinScan can read the AFR with a stock ECM in place.

[RoadKingKohn]

I put my old ECM (Stock OEM Delphi?) back in and the fuel pump would work.  All this time I left the WEGO parts in place and plugged in.

To What??? To the stock main ECM harness just like in the instructions for the DTT TCFI II which happen to be the locations for plugging in O2s on a stock Delphi ECM.

Now since fixing a short in my left hand control the P0113 IAT has not been coming on.

What does the left hand control have to do with the intake air temp sensor? Haven't a clue.  Just know that for right now the IAT isn't coding.

But if it isn't supposed to be working why is it adjusting the VEs?

I don't know but I will certainly be talking with Steve Cole about this.

Please do because I have no idea as to why it is working.  Just that it is.

[RoadKingKohn]

I'm curious what your AFR is?  I'm wondering if the ECM isn't defaulting to some predetermined AFR and that is why it is changing the VE's.  Just my 2 cents, since the ECM is not suppose to be able to read WB sensors.  ?

Except for starting it is at 14.6 as per the 176 program I am running.  Starting I believe is at 13.0.  

Here again.  The TwinScan II uses the WEGO II (now the III) with a SERT and it works with a stock Delphi ECM.

So    

[nc-renegade]

Except for starting it is at 14.6 as per the 176 program I am running. Starting I believe is at 13.0.  

Here again. The TwinScan II uses the WEGO II (now the III) with a SERT and it works with a stock Delphi ECM.

So    

Hi RoadKingKohn,
What most folks here are questioning (me too, BTW) is the stock Delphi ECM being able to use the information from the wideband WEGO II information that is on the serial bus.  My T-Max ECM uses the wideband AFR data that is available via the serial bus, but to the best of my knowledge, the Delphi does not.

Another point brought up was the fact the WEGO II puts the wideband AFR data on the serial bus through the diagnostic port.  BUT, you must have the TTS plugged into this same port as you are doing the data runs??  Zipper makes a y-connection setup so you can have access to this port when their autotune unit is plugged into the diagnostic port, but you did not mention if you are using this.

BTW, I put my stock Delphi ECM back on my bike this Sunday.  I am getting ready to add narrowband sensors to my 05 ECM by wiring it as per the 07 ECM and o2 sensors.  I separated my o2 autotune unit from my T-Max's ECU so I could monitor the actual AFR the bike is running.  I use the Thunderheart digital speedometer that displays the AFR readings off of the serial bus.  I was able to verify that my front cylinder was running fairly lean at certain TPS points, whereas my rear cylinder looked good.  HOWEVER, at no time did the Delphi ECU attempt to adjust it's VE tables to get to the targeted AFRs and match the true AFR data coming in on the serial bus....it simply is not a wideband, close-loop system.

This is the concern folks are having with your statements..it simply will not work.

[WVULTRA]

RKK:


IMO, you've got the PZ176 map loaded into the ecm.  Any info/feedback your getting (from the ecm) is merely open loop/default readings cause the ecm is not seeing the stock narrow band sensors.

[RoadKingKohn]

Except for starting it is at 14.6 as per the 176 program I am running. Starting I believe is at 13.0.  

Here again. The TwinScan II uses the WEGO II (now the III) with a SERT and it works with a stock Delphi ECM.

So    

Hi RoadKingKohn,
What most folks here are questioning (me too, BTW) is the stock Delphi ECM being able to use the information from the wideband WEGO II information that is on the serial bus.  My T-Max ECM uses the wideband AFR data that is available via the serial bus, but to the best of my knowledge, the Delphi does not.

Another point brought up was the fact the WEGO II puts the wideband AFR data on the serial bus through the diagnostic port.  BUT, you must have the TTS plugged into this same port as you are doing the data runs??  Zipper makes a y-connection setup so you can have access to this port when their autotune unit is plugged into the diagnostic port, but you did not mention if you are using this.

I'm going by memory.  But I am pretty sure that the WEGO II is wired to the serial bus and then from the fuse panel to a chassis point for ground.  The fuse panel to chassis point is for the preheating of the sensors.  Other than that I could not find any difference between the 07 wiring for the sensors and the WEGO II.  Like I have said.  Twice it has adjusted the VEs.  Why it has done it I don't know.  I do know that it has a very touchy throttle now.

[RoadKingKohn]

RKK:


IMO, you've got the PZ176 map loaded into the ecm.  Any info/feedback your getting (from the ecm) is merely open loop/default readings cause the ecm is not seeing the stock narrow band sensors.

I'm asking this because I don't know.  If what you have said is true.  Why did it adjust my VEs?  That is the part that does not make any sense to me along with the it not showing a code that there are no O2 sensors.

[Ram]

I just left it all hooked up as it was when the DTT TCFI II was in.

I'm going by memory.  But I am pretty sure that the WEGO II is wired to the serial bus and then from the fuse panel to a chassis point for ground.  The fuse panel to chassis point is for the preheating of the sensors.  Other than that I could not find any difference between the 07 wiring for the sensors and the WEGO II.  Like I have said.  Twice it has adjusted the VEs.  Why it has done it I don't know.  I do know that it has a very touchy throttle now.

Unless your Daytona Twin Tech TFCI with WEGO II is different then mine, the WEGO II out puts only connect to the stock H-D ECM wirning by two unused terminals as stated in the DTT install package

From what I know the WEGO II will not and does not connect to the serial bus, if that were the case you would know it when tuning with your TTS since it connects to the serial bus.

[RoadKingKohn]

RKK:


IMO, you've got the PZ176 map loaded into the ecm.  Any info/feedback your getting (from the ecm) is merely open loop/default readings cause the ecm is not seeing the stock narrow band sensors.

I have the QC176-002-B1.MT7 loaded.

[RoadKingKohn]

I just left it all hooked up as it was when the DTT TCFI II was in.

I'm going by memory.  But I am pretty sure that the WEGO II is wired to the serial bus and then from the fuse panel to a chassis point for ground.  The fuse panel to chassis point is for the preheating of the sensors.  Other than that I could not find any difference between the 07 wiring for the sensors and the WEGO II.  Like I have said.  Twice it has adjusted the VEs.  Why it has done it I don't know.  I do know that it has a very touchy throttle now.

Unless your Daytona Twin Tech TFCI with WEGO II is different then mine, the WEGO II out puts only connect to the stock H-D ECM wirning by two unused terminals as stated in the DTT install package

From what I know the WEGO II will not and does not connect to the serial bus, if that were the case you would know it when tuning with your TTS since it connects to the serial bus.

You know where the pins #8 and #23 (I think these are the right numbers) are that plug into the ECM for the O2 Sensors?  That is where mine are plugged in.

I wonder if this is what waterboarding is like? 

[Ram]

I just left it all hooked up as it was when the DTT TCFI II was in.

I'm going by memory.  But I am pretty sure that the WEGO II is wired to the serial bus and then from the fuse panel to a chassis point for ground.  The fuse panel to chassis point is for the preheating of the sensors.  Other than that I could not find any difference between the 07 wiring for the sensors and the WEGO II.  Like I have said.  Twice it has adjusted the VEs.  Why it has done it I don't know.  I do know that it has a very touchy throttle now.

Unless your Daytona Twin Tech TFCI with WEGO II is different then mine, the WEGO II out puts only connect to the stock H-D ECM wirning by two unused terminals as stated in the DTT install package

From what I know the WEGO II will not and does not connect to the serial bus, if that were the case you would know it when tuning with your TTS since it connects to the serial bus.

You know where the pins #8 and #23 (I think these are the right numbers) are that plug into the ECM for the O2 Sensors?  That is where mine are plugged in.

I wonder if this is what waterboarding is like? 

Pin 8 and 23 are correct for the WEGO II when used in conjunction with the Daytona Twin Tech TFCI ECM

waterboarding

Well Waterboarding is an interesting comparison.

You have to say broken the mold.  A lot of folks want to do “Closed Loop” TTS tuning on older then an '07 year model. 

Others want to experiment with a wide band o2 sensor arrangement for various reasons that I'm not even going to entertain.

How ever all the information that those who have asked may not be actual mechanics or tuners and really want to do what you have done. 

I want to point out one thing that may be a problem with how your set up is connected.  Sure your on 8 and 23 for the dual o2 configuration.  And it just happens to be the same pins as what a stock H-D '07 ECM does use for inputs of the o2 sensors.

But, oh, ya, we have but, in the “Stock” narrow band o2 configuration with stock wiring pin 26 is used . Its stated on the on the 2007 FLHX, FLHT, FLHTC, FLHTCU and etc... etc.... Main Wiring Harness (Page 2 of 2)  diagram from page B-47 of the Factory Service Manual (FSM) that pin 26 is:

5 Volt Sensor Ground.  And is a BK/W wire color.

Since it says ground, it does not mean that its the bike chassis, it does not mean (-) negative 12 volts from the battery either.  Its a statement of function.  In saying that and reading the FSM wiring diagram it does not show an electrical contact to what we normally consider as chassis ground, or â€" 12 volts.

IMO, I believe since its also electrically tied to the following sensors: ET, IAT, TPS and MAP sensors as well as what the factory wiring calls for with its design of the diagram including the o2 sensors.

I believe that its a “Floating” return signal of sorts, whell the actual electrical properties may very well be a â€" 5 volts thus making it not even ground.

What ever its reference level that its floating at, is necessary for the program in the ECM to function properly. 

All that being said.

Your WEGO II may be, or may not be “EXACTLY” what the signal is required to be outputting into the ECM as you have presently wired.

Remember pin 26, the one you have no connection with the WEGO II unit. What is its reference level  from 5 volts??   I perceive it to be chassis (-12 volts) ground.  A common fixed ground. 

This may be exactly what you have had or are having issues your IAT throwing a code. 

So no I'm not waterboarding anybody, I'm just trying to be factual as I can WITH OUT suggesting to  maybe a dozen or more others that this is the golden nugget. And have everybody think they can switch over to a WEGO II with its wide band sensors that are not using the stock wiring harness since the WEGO, comes as a complete installation by itself.  The WEGO II the module, has two o2 sensors, its pre-manufactured wiring harness, a + 12 volt lead to the ignition, and a chassis ground lead (IMO is its reference to the WEGO II output), and out put leads to a DTT TFCI ECM for pins 8 and 23 of a stock H-D wiring harness ECM connector.

Now if anyone else would like to ditch the stock narrow band o2 sensors.  Or not add them to an '05 or an '06 which I'm under the impression from Steve Cole that  TTS is currently working on a calibration to tune those models like the '07's which can be ran in “Closed Loop” operations.

You can do so at your own risk and be aware this has not been fully tested in an manner to gather empirical data in a control environment with any of the proper test equipment.  (that I'm aware of)

I have done my own research on the WEGO II, I own one, with a DTT TFCI.  I will NOT use it in this matter.

However I am building a add on wiring harness to my '06 FLHRI (which never came with dual o2 sensors for any closed loop ops) and I'm adding them just like the '07 FSM diagram referenced above indicates.  I hope to have success doing so. And expect to tune it with the TTS MasterTuner.

RKK, I wish you the best of luck in your endeavor and hope that you can overcome the IAT issue and get on with things with out any incidental damage to anything on your bike.

[WVULTRA]

author=RoadKingKohn

I have the QC176-002-B1.MT7 loaded.

Kohn:  Sorry for my mistake, and thanks for pointing that out.  I remembered "176" and where I've been dealing with PZ176 for some time, it's kinda burned into my brain.   

[WVULTRA]

Ram:

IMO, you've posted some great info and thrown out several ideas.

Thanks for you knowledge!

[RoadKingKohn]

RAM,

Thanks for the info.  I will look into it more.  Hopefully on Saturday morning.

I did look at my front plug tonight and it is very clean in its burn.

Bill

[nc-renegade]

Hi Ram,
That is a good analysis into what might be going on.  I too believe the sensor ground is NOT battery ground, but perhaps the negative input on an opamp and is in fact a full floating system.  This explains a lot.

I was mistaken for how his system was hooked up and now some of this makes sense.

Edit: I certainly would not recommend this connect; the ECM is looking for a 0 to 1V signal.  If close loop is wanted, then just add the narrowband o2 sensors and connect them into the ECM correctly.

Regards,
NC

[RoadKingKohn]

RAM,

Let me ask a question.  If I can get the ground to the 26 pin then it might work?

Bill

[Ram]

Your asking the $10,000,000 question.  If you know what the input and outputs of the stock H-D ECM interface capabilites are spec'ed at, for what impedeance, voltage, pulse or sine wave etc... and how it interacts with the internal ECM program that actually runs the engine as a whole (this is the part that your only able to tune with the TTS, unless of course your the person or group of people that developed and engineered the H-D ECM and have the source codes to access the other aspects of its capabilites). And you have to know what exactly your looking at from the WEGO II out puts which they state is 5 volts.  And that is specifically designed to input directy into the DTT TFCI ECM or to actual o2 indicators (meters of some sort). Thats why its at 5 volts is a good guess.

I think that I've read the H-D narrow band o2's only operate in a 1 volt spectrum in reference to "Lambda".  So what is the upper and lower limits of the WEGO II modules output and how does that corolate to the 1 volt swing (referecned at what ever they use be it to be in, from 5 volts as H-D wiring implies).   

I'm sure you could build a additional compensating circuit that would provide something close as an interface could get from the WEGO II for it to imulate the stock H-D o2s into the the stock H-D ECM.

All of this of course would have to be lab tested with standards and under controlled test events to insure that its not going to adversly effect any of the other sensors that are tied to that pin 26 like the: ET, IAT, TPS and MAP sensors. 

Who did you have in mind to build this interface? 

Surely its not going to be a little resistor bridge, like those who in the past have wanted to richen out the program by adding 3 resistors into each o2 sensor ckt to fool the ECM!

As for what your asking to do will most likely be way less expensive to just buy the '07 o2's and all the stock H-D components to build the connectors to the plug in the stock o2's and wire them as an '07 then tune it as an '07.

[RoadKingKohn]

Your asking the $10,000,000 question.  If you know what the input and outputs of the stock H-D ECM interface capabilites are spec'ed at, for what impedeance, voltage, pulse or sine wave etc... and how it interacts with the internal ECM program that actually runs the engine as a whole (this is the part that your only able to tune with the TTS, unless of course your the person or group of people that developed and engineered the H-D ECM and have the source codes to access the other aspects of its capabilites). And you have to know what exactly your looking at from the WEGO II out puts which they state is 5 volts.  And that is specifically designed to input directy into the DTT TFCI ECM or to actual o2 indicators (meters of some sort). Thats why its at 5 volts is a good guess.

I think that I've read the H-D narrow band o2's only operate in a 1 volt spectrum in reference to "Lambda".  So what is the upper and lower limits of the WEGO II modules output and how does that corolate to the 1 volt swing (referecned at what ever they use be it to be in, from 5 volts as H-D wiring implies).   

I'm sure you could build a additional compensating circuit that would provide something close as an interface could get from the WEGO II for it to imulate the stock H-D o2s into the the stock H-D ECM.

All of this of course would have to be lab tested with standards and under controlled test events to insure that its not going to adversly effect any of the other sensors that are tied to that pin 26 like the: ET, IAT, TPS and MAP sensors. 

Who did you have in mind to build this interface? 

Surely its not going to be a little resistor bridge, like those who in the past have wanted to richen out the program by adding 3 resistors into each o2 sensor ckt to fool the ECM!

As for what your asking to do will most likely be way less expensive to just buy the '07 o2's and all the stock H-D components to build the connectors to the plug in the stock o2's and wire them as an '07 then tune it as an '07.

Just think.  All of this started for me with my Harley Dealer not wanting to cover the bad valve seals under warranty.  But they did offer to turn it into a 95" for a cost. 

[VDeuce]

As for what your asking to do will most likely be way less expensive to just buy the '07 o2's and all the stock H-D components to build the connectors to the plug in the stock o2's and wire them as an '07 then tune it as an '07.

Agreed!

BTW, I just ordered 2 new stock O2 sensors as my rear one is displaying lazy characteristics. Interesting things is that they only had perhaps 6000 miles on them.

The data recordings showed the front sensor kick in about 30 seconds after cold start, with the rear not responding for a few minutes. When they both finally warmed up, you could blip the throttle, watch the spike in RPM and the front responded crisply, whereas the rear would take a lot of time. The rear almost always read a higher voltage than the front.

As a result, my TTS VTune sessions were resulting in too great of a difference between front and rear VEs (like 20%). I also did a compression test (both cylinders were dead on), intake leak test, and exhaust leak tests. All those passed.

If I'm correct, the lazy O2 sensor would result in an over-rich mix. I should start a new thread on this...

[frydaddy96]

VDeuce,  somewhere I read and it might have been by S.C. that you should collect 20 minutes or so of data with DataMaster to see what the O2 sensors are doing to determine if they are going bad.

[VDeuce]

VDeuce,  somewhere I read and it might have been by S.C. that you should collect 20 minutes or so of data with DataMaster to see what the O2 sensors are doing to determine if they are going bad.

I'll run it again tonight and post the logs. I have another thread going about this.

Note that the engine was already warmed up quite a bit when I did these tests initially. These sensors should be able to do their thing within a few minutes, otherwise closed loop really doesn't happen.

[RoadKingKohn]

I must be missing it.  But where is the adjustment on the TTS for hot starts.  Mine starts up fine when cold and puts up a real fight when hot.

[FLTRI]

I must be missing it.  But where is the adjustment on the TTS for hot starts. 

Look at the "warmup enrichment", "cranking fuel", "IAC warmup steps", "IAC crank to run", and "IAC crank steps".
They all affect starting based on engine temp.
HTH,
Bob