TTS Tuners/Users: Food for thought?

[WVULTRA]

I've noticed a lot of riders wanting input on the "best" cam for a 96" Bagger with lots of bottom end.  I too was in this position over the winter and upgraded to the Crane 300-2s with an +4 crank gear (thanks Herko!) that so far feels great to the "butt dyno".

My interest right now is am I using the TTS VTune software to it's fullest by starting with the PZ176 (96" Stage1 w/optional slip-ons) map?  I did decrease the Injector Size in Constants to fatten up the overall map since initially I was maxing out the VEs with the base map.  This procedure is mentioned in the new TTS Tuning Manual; however I get the feeling that increasing the engine's CI in Constants may be preferred.  If so, +5% seems to be a good starting point IIRC.  If I increase the CI 5%, then I'm close to 103 Cubic Inches (101" actual).

So now I'm thinking with optional cams that are similar (IMO) to the SE 255s, and needing ~101 CI, why not take the PS176 map (103", 255 Cams, Stage1 A/C, and optional exhaust) and reduce the CI in Constants to 96" and try that?  IMO, this just seems like a "logical" approach but I may be way off base here!

Herko posted a sweet Dyno Tune here:  http://harleytechtalk.net/htt/index.php?topic=9386.msg100809#msg100809  and this also brings up my next question of would either of these two maps be an ideal starting map with the same configuration (96" & mild cams) but instead using Tru Duals?

Hope this sparks some interests............

Thanks!

[Blackbaggr]

 


Steve, Herko, Bob

[WVULTRA]

To further feed my curiosity, I opened up two instances of MT for a comparison of the two maps (PZ176 & PS176).  Going through each of the Tables, I see that are minor differences in:

F&R VEs
AE
DE
IAC CtoR

Of course the VEs for the 103" map are understandably higher; but not a large amount.

My main concern is what I think are significant differences in the Spark Tables.  But this is from my untrained eyes.

And the Constants are identical except for CI.

[FLTRI]

I would start with the 103 map and see how that works for VE. If you need to reduce the VEs then reduce the ci instead.
Second guessing the fuel requirements for a cam that "looks" like it may be similar to a SE255 gives you 10-15% chance it will be as expected, so may as well just try what you have first then go from there.
Hope this helps,
Bob

[WVULTRA]

Bob:

Was reminded of the Yuill Brothers maps that are included with the latest TTS Cals:

File Name: YA176-000-A1.MT7
Application: 2007-2009 'All Market' Touring Exhaust with O2 Sensors
Configuration: 1580 Yuill Stage 2 with Elite D Pipes
Components:
-- A/C and Breather Kit
-- Yuill Elite D Pipes
-- Yuill YB12S-07 Cams

I realize their cams may not be close, but looking at the specs they're not too far off.  And the Elite D is their Tru Dual pipes.

In your opinion, for Tru Duals, would this be a better candidate for a starter map vs. the PS176 103" map?

Thanks, and I really appreciate your feedback.

[FLTRI]

You probably were not expecting this answer but:
It's no more than a crap shoot so may as well try it and others till you find one that at least "feels" ok.
Cam differences basically dictate the personality of the engine and everything around it ideally complements the cam's profile. That said, cam profile differences affect the cylinder's fuel requirements throughout the rpm/tp range.
And that said, the exhaust system design will also change the fuel requirements. Heads, compression, intake, injector size, and air filter all alter the fuel requirements.
And all that said:
1) Pick a calibration based on the cam profile.
2) Modify the constants to reflect fact.
3) Ride the bike with taped off throttle grip and note any poor running behavior @ TP/RPM.
4) Come back and address the TP/RPM range the condition was found.
5) Repeat until the bike runs ok everwhere.
6) Take it to a competent tuner to get it to run perfect everywhere.
There ya have it from a guy who recalibrates Harley and aftermarket EFI systems every day.
Bob

[WVULTRA]

Bob:
I appreciate your explanation, and I fully realize it's a crap-shoot.  Using Big Boyz Cam Comparator, my specs yield:

              LIFT             DURATION          TIMING             C/L                TDC
INT:        0.505            226.0               17/29                 96.0             0.147   
EXH:        0.505            236.0               46/10                 108.0             0.152

And Yuill Brothers' published specs for the YB12S-07 are:

              LIFT            DURATION          TIMING                C/L              TDC
INT:        0.510            236.0               20/36                  98                 0.184
EXH:        0.510            254.0               54/20                  107              0.171


Via my untrained eye, these specs look more similar than the SE255. 

Hope this makes sense............

Thanks for your experienced comments.

[Herko]

There's no magic pill (map) that will all of the sudden make a bike run the best it can be.
Bikes have to be tuned. Investing time and energy in the tune process with whatever the tuning device and calibration being used is what's important.

Yes, a good starter cal helps, but giving the build what it wants is key. If you're well on the way to a good tune with a certain cal, why scrap that project and look for a rainbow?

As far as raising the ceiling for VE's maxing out, I've done it both with cubes and injector sizes. Both work. But what are we affecting with a cube change vs. Inj size change? (Maybe another thread on this subject).

True duals vs 2:1 on the same bike: With tuning, the same base cal can be used initially, and great results can be had by giving the build the fuel and ignition it's looking for. But it had to be tuned to get there.

Cam X vs. cam Y on the same bike: With tuning, the same base cal can be used initially, and great results can be had by giving the build the fuel and ignition it's looking for. But it had to be tuned to get there.

Sometimes I go against the book of Hoyle when it comes to what cal I use to start with for a tune. I look for characteristics of cals that we don't have adjustment tables for. One I like for milder builds is a cal that will take the injectors to 0.0 ms (no fuel) during decel. To me this is a cleaner way to control decel pop. Sometimes getting a handle on controlling the abruptness of the engine response on which fuel is reintroduced can be a challenge. But, this is one example that without direct tables to control something, I try to avoid areas of getting the right result for the wrong reason. Kind of a balancing act sometimes. But, these out-of-Hoyle starter cals have always ended up with great results. These great results come from a process of tuning, not a magic pill.

[WVULTRA]

One I like for milder builds is a cal that will take the injectors to 0.0 ms (no fuel) during decel. To me this is a cleaner way to control decel pop.

One of the best maps I ran with the SERT and my '05RK was based on a Dyna starter map.  That map too "0'd" the injectors during zero throttle decel.

Agree that there's no magic pill (map) to make these bikes run their best; but IMO searching for the best starter map, especially when the components are not exact or similar to the stock cals, is a natural for those that are serious about learning/using the VTune software prior to getting that final tune with a competent Dyno Operator.

Cube change vs. Injector size change would be an interesting thread.

Thanks for your feedback John! 

[FLTRI]

.....is a natural for those that are serious about learning/using the VTune software prior to getting that final tune with a competent Dyno Operator.

As long as you realize the V-tune only applies to 07-up, closed loop bikes.

[WVULTRA]

.....is a natural for those that are serious about learning/using the VTune software prior to getting that final tune with a competent Dyno Operator.

As long as you realize the V-tune only applies to 07-up, closed loop bikes.

[RoadKingKohn]

.....is a natural for those that are serious about learning/using the VTune software prior to getting that final tune with a competent Dyno Operator.

As long as you realize the V-tune only applies to 07-up, closed loop bikes.

And 05 bikes that have DTT WEGO II O2 sensors with 06 heads and throttle bodies on them. 

[Scotty]

I have seen a few people comment on this, but never seen an answer as to how you wired up wide band o2 sensors to the stock ECM and got them to work with v-tune.

Enquiring minds would like to know please.

I do know of one way that the guy from the nightrider site has mentioned but you have never mentioned any extras being attached.

[Herko]

"....with 06 heads and throttle bodies on them. "

Curious how these heads and TB make a difference?

[RoadKingKohn]

"....with 06 heads and throttle bodies on them. "

Curious how these heads and TB make a difference?

They don't make a difference to setting up for the O2 sensors.  I was just giving a run down on what I had done.  I had put the 06 heads on in Feb 07 and had been running a Gerolamy TB with my DTT TCFI II.  Then after talking with FLTRI about tuning with the TTS that I purchased from you.  I determined that I didn't want to do the work needed to the Gerolamy in order to make it work.  So I went with a 06 TB that I had and changed the needed plugs to fit the 06 connection.  So the 06 heads are on because they flow better and the 06 TB flows more than 05s.

[Scotty]

Could you answer my question as well please?   

[RoadKingKohn]

I have seen a few people comment on this, but never seen an answer as to how you wired up wide band o2 sensors to the stock ECM and got them to work with v-tune.

Enquiring minds would like to know please.

I do know of one way that the guy from the nightrider site has mentioned but you have never mentioned any extras being attached.

First I need to know what year and model of bike that you have.

[Scotty]

I just want to know how you wired wide band O2 sensors from a DTT TCFI to your bike and stock ECM and got them to work with V-tune and the TTS

Let's just say I have a bike that is the same year as yours with the same throttle body and everything just like yours.

[RoadKingKohn]

I just want to know how you wired wide band O2 sensors from a DTT TCFI to your bike and stock ECM and got them to work with V-tune and the TTS

Let's just say I have a bike that is the same year as yours with the same throttle body and everything just like yours.

All I did was follow the instruction for installing the WEGO II and then started using the TTS and the VTune program.  I have been getting P0113 codes that might be related to using the wide band sensors.  If I did already have the WEGO II I would have just purchased the HD O2 sensors and plugged them in.

[Scotty]

So basically you don't have V-tune working as they don't read wide band O2 sensors and even if you have them plugged into the WEGO box it can't be plugged into the diagnostics port the same time as the TTS tuner anyway.
I think your riding around believing something is working when it is quite obvious that it can't based on your above statement.
You need to remove the wide band sensors and run the 2 wire OEM ones and connect up new wiring to the correct ports on the ECM and to a +5v power source.

[RoadKingKohn]

So basically you don't have V-tune working as they don't read wide band O2 sensors and even if you have them plugged into the WEGO box it can't be plugged into the diagnostics port the same time as the TTS tuner anyway.
I think your riding around believing something is working when it is quite obvious that it can't based on your above statement.
You need to remove the wide band sensors and run the 2 wire OEM ones and connect up new wiring to the correct ports on the ECM and to a +5v power source.

No. Actually it is working and it does adjust the VE tables.  The WEGO box allows you to adjust the O2 sensors to atmosphere.  The WEGO box then plugs into the pin locations for the O2 sensors on the ECM that HD points out.  The problem I have is that I might be grounded to the wrong place and that is why my IAT keeps on giving me the P0113 code.

[FLTRI]

So if I'm reading you correctly, you have somehow turned a narrow band, closed loop system into a wide band closed loop system?
So the ECM was ready for wide band sensors all the time and can read and adjust as necessary? WOW!
If this can be verified, companies making old-technology wide band auto-tune systems will be out of business overnight once this Delphi wide band "upgrade" becomes a known option.
Please forward the specific procedure for this upgrade as I'm sure there are a few members that own WEGO stuff and an 07-up bike to try it on.
Thanks,
Bob

[Scotty]

I think your digging a hole your going to have trouble getting out of.

The Delphi ECM does not work with those sensors how you believe they do.

[RoadKingKohn]

Okay let me explain again what I did.

The bike in question is a 2005 FLHRCI with a 06 throttle body and heads and HQ-0034-G cam and about 9.9 to 1 compression.

I had an DTT TCFI II.  The #4 pin on it went dead and my fuel pump would not work.  I put my old ECM back in and the fuel pump would work.  All this time I left the WEGO parts in place and plugged in.

Purchased a TTS from Herko and first uploaded a 141 program but found out after reading the instructions again that I could not use a 141 program and use VTune.  Next I uploaded a 176 program and then ran the DataMaster and Vtune programs.  On the first run the VTune showed some VE cells (about 10) that were off so I created the new file, uploaded it and then did it again.  Second time I ran and the VE cells (3 this time) showed a slight pink.  Created a new program and uploaded it.  Bike has been running great ever since.

Now since fixing a short in my left hand control the P0113 IAT has not been coming on.  It has also been in the 40s to 50s when I have been riding of late and might be why the code is not coming on.  Before I was getting the code when it was in the 70s and still had the short.

But if it isn't supposed to be working why is it adjusting the VEs?

[Unbalanced]

Okay let me explain again what I did.

The bike in question is a 2005 FLHRCI with a 06 throttle body and heads and HQ-0034-G cam and about 9.9 to 1 compression.

I had an DTT TCFI II.  The #4 pin on it went dead and my fuel pump would not work.  I put my old ECM back in and the fuel pump would work.  All this time I left the WEGO parts in place and plugged in.

Purchased a TTS from Herko and first uploaded a 141 program but found out after reading the instructions again that I could not use a 141 program and use VTune.  Next I uploaded a 176 program and then ran the DataMaster and Vtune programs.  On the first run the VTune showed some VE cells (about 10) that were off so I created the new file, uploaded it and then did it again.  Second time I ran and the VE cells (3 this time) showed a slight pink.  Created a new program and uploaded it.  Bike has been running great ever since.

Now since fixing a short in my left hand control the P0113 IAT has not been coming on.  It has also been in the 40s to 50s when I have been riding of late and might be why the code is not coming on.  Before I was getting the code when it was in the 70s and still had the short.

But if it isn't supposed to be working why is it adjusting the VEs?

RoadkingKohn,

I am curious about your installation with the WegoII, since the WegoII came with Deutsch Connectors on the Wide Band Sensors, you made no mention of converting them to the black plug that Harley uses on the oem narrow band.   Which wires did you use to make this work for your widebands to act like narrow bands 2 wire vs. 5 wire (correct me if mistaken about the wire numbers I am too lazy atm to go into the garage to validate).   Curious which Wego Parts other than the Wide Bands you left in place as only one item either the Wego or the ECM can be connected to the dataport?   Appreciate your info and help as I am Wego II owner as well and you have sparked my curiousity greatly.