TTS Tuners/Users: Food for thought?

[FLTRI]

I put my old ECM (Stock OEM Delphi?) back in and the fuel pump would work.  All this time I left the WEGO parts in place and plugged in.

To What???

Now since fixing a short in my left hand control the P0113 IAT has not been coming on.

What does the left hand control have to do with the intake air temp sensor?

But if it isn't supposed to be working why is it adjusting the VEs?

I don't know but I will certainly be talking with Steve Cole about this.

[frydaddy96]

I'm curious what your AFR is?  I'm wondering if the ECM isn't defaulting to some predetermined AFR and that is why it is changing the VE's.  Just my 2 cents, since the ECM is not suppose to be able to read WB sensors.  ?   

[RoadKingKohn]

Okay let me explain again what I did.

The bike in question is a 2005 FLHRCI with a 06 throttle body and heads and HQ-0034-G cam and about 9.9 to 1 compression.

I had an DTT TCFI II.  The #4 pin on it went dead and my fuel pump would not work.  I put my old ECM back in and the fuel pump would work.  All this time I left the WEGO parts in place and plugged in.

Purchased a TTS from Herko and first uploaded a 141 program but found out after reading the instructions again that I could not use a 141 program and use VTune.  Next I uploaded a 176 program and then ran the DataMaster and Vtune programs.  On the first run the VTune showed some VE cells (about 10) that were off so I created the new file, uploaded it and then did it again.  Second time I ran and the VE cells (3 this time) showed a slight pink.  Created a new program and uploaded it.  Bike has been running great ever since.

Now since fixing a short in my left hand control the P0113 IAT has not been coming on.  It has also been in the 40s to 50s when I have been riding of late and might be why the code is not coming on.  Before I was getting the code when it was in the 70s and still had the short.

But if it isn't supposed to be working why is it adjusting the VEs?

RoadkingKohn,

I am curious about your installation with the WegoII, since the WegoII came with Deutsch Connectors on the Wide Band Sensors, you made no mention of converting them to the black plug that Harley uses on the oem narrow band.   Which wires did you use to make this work for your widebands to act like narrow bands 2 wire vs. 5 wire (correct me if mistaken about the wire numbers I am too lazy atm to go into the garage to validate).   Curious which Wego Parts other than the Wide Bands you left in place as only one item either the Wego or the ECM can be connected to the dataport?   Appreciate your info and help as I am Wego II owner as well and you have sparked my curiousity greatly.

I just left it all hooked up as it was when the DTT TCFI II was in.  They are 5 wires.  I believe that some of the wires are there to preheat the sensor.  On DTT website it also states that the sensors are "0-5V analog AFR output for interface to dyno instrumentation".  So does that not solve the 5V problem?  I'm asking cause I haven't a clue.

Correct me if I am wrong guys.  But isn't the WEGO II the same as the TwinScan II just minus the program?  And yet the TwinScan can read the AFR with a stock ECM in place.

[RoadKingKohn]

I put my old ECM (Stock OEM Delphi?) back in and the fuel pump would work.  All this time I left the WEGO parts in place and plugged in.

To What??? To the stock main ECM harness just like in the instructions for the DTT TCFI II which happen to be the locations for plugging in O2s on a stock Delphi ECM.

Now since fixing a short in my left hand control the P0113 IAT has not been coming on.

What does the left hand control have to do with the intake air temp sensor? Haven't a clue.  Just know that for right now the IAT isn't coding.

But if it isn't supposed to be working why is it adjusting the VEs?

I don't know but I will certainly be talking with Steve Cole about this.

Please do because I have no idea as to why it is working.  Just that it is.

[RoadKingKohn]

I'm curious what your AFR is?  I'm wondering if the ECM isn't defaulting to some predetermined AFR and that is why it is changing the VE's.  Just my 2 cents, since the ECM is not suppose to be able to read WB sensors.  ?

Except for starting it is at 14.6 as per the 176 program I am running.  Starting I believe is at 13.0.  

Here again.  The TwinScan II uses the WEGO II (now the III) with a SERT and it works with a stock Delphi ECM.

So    

[nc-renegade]

Except for starting it is at 14.6 as per the 176 program I am running. Starting I believe is at 13.0.  

Here again. The TwinScan II uses the WEGO II (now the III) with a SERT and it works with a stock Delphi ECM.

So    

Hi RoadKingKohn,
What most folks here are questioning (me too, BTW) is the stock Delphi ECM being able to use the information from the wideband WEGO II information that is on the serial bus.  My T-Max ECM uses the wideband AFR data that is available via the serial bus, but to the best of my knowledge, the Delphi does not.

Another point brought up was the fact the WEGO II puts the wideband AFR data on the serial bus through the diagnostic port.  BUT, you must have the TTS plugged into this same port as you are doing the data runs??  Zipper makes a y-connection setup so you can have access to this port when their autotune unit is plugged into the diagnostic port, but you did not mention if you are using this.

BTW, I put my stock Delphi ECM back on my bike this Sunday.  I am getting ready to add narrowband sensors to my 05 ECM by wiring it as per the 07 ECM and o2 sensors.  I separated my o2 autotune unit from my T-Max's ECU so I could monitor the actual AFR the bike is running.  I use the Thunderheart digital speedometer that displays the AFR readings off of the serial bus.  I was able to verify that my front cylinder was running fairly lean at certain TPS points, whereas my rear cylinder looked good.  HOWEVER, at no time did the Delphi ECU attempt to adjust it's VE tables to get to the targeted AFRs and match the true AFR data coming in on the serial bus....it simply is not a wideband, close-loop system.

This is the concern folks are having with your statements..it simply will not work.

[WVULTRA]

RKK:


IMO, you've got the PZ176 map loaded into the ecm.  Any info/feedback your getting (from the ecm) is merely open loop/default readings cause the ecm is not seeing the stock narrow band sensors.

[RoadKingKohn]

Except for starting it is at 14.6 as per the 176 program I am running. Starting I believe is at 13.0.  

Here again. The TwinScan II uses the WEGO II (now the III) with a SERT and it works with a stock Delphi ECM.

So    

Hi RoadKingKohn,
What most folks here are questioning (me too, BTW) is the stock Delphi ECM being able to use the information from the wideband WEGO II information that is on the serial bus.  My T-Max ECM uses the wideband AFR data that is available via the serial bus, but to the best of my knowledge, the Delphi does not.

Another point brought up was the fact the WEGO II puts the wideband AFR data on the serial bus through the diagnostic port.  BUT, you must have the TTS plugged into this same port as you are doing the data runs??  Zipper makes a y-connection setup so you can have access to this port when their autotune unit is plugged into the diagnostic port, but you did not mention if you are using this.

I'm going by memory.  But I am pretty sure that the WEGO II is wired to the serial bus and then from the fuse panel to a chassis point for ground.  The fuse panel to chassis point is for the preheating of the sensors.  Other than that I could not find any difference between the 07 wiring for the sensors and the WEGO II.  Like I have said.  Twice it has adjusted the VEs.  Why it has done it I don't know.  I do know that it has a very touchy throttle now.

[RoadKingKohn]

RKK:


IMO, you've got the PZ176 map loaded into the ecm.  Any info/feedback your getting (from the ecm) is merely open loop/default readings cause the ecm is not seeing the stock narrow band sensors.

I'm asking this because I don't know.  If what you have said is true.  Why did it adjust my VEs?  That is the part that does not make any sense to me along with the it not showing a code that there are no O2 sensors.

[Ram]

I just left it all hooked up as it was when the DTT TCFI II was in.

I'm going by memory.  But I am pretty sure that the WEGO II is wired to the serial bus and then from the fuse panel to a chassis point for ground.  The fuse panel to chassis point is for the preheating of the sensors.  Other than that I could not find any difference between the 07 wiring for the sensors and the WEGO II.  Like I have said.  Twice it has adjusted the VEs.  Why it has done it I don't know.  I do know that it has a very touchy throttle now.

Unless your Daytona Twin Tech TFCI with WEGO II is different then mine, the WEGO II out puts only connect to the stock H-D ECM wirning by two unused terminals as stated in the DTT install package

From what I know the WEGO II will not and does not connect to the serial bus, if that were the case you would know it when tuning with your TTS since it connects to the serial bus.

[RoadKingKohn]

RKK:


IMO, you've got the PZ176 map loaded into the ecm.  Any info/feedback your getting (from the ecm) is merely open loop/default readings cause the ecm is not seeing the stock narrow band sensors.

I have the QC176-002-B1.MT7 loaded.

[RoadKingKohn]

I just left it all hooked up as it was when the DTT TCFI II was in.

I'm going by memory.  But I am pretty sure that the WEGO II is wired to the serial bus and then from the fuse panel to a chassis point for ground.  The fuse panel to chassis point is for the preheating of the sensors.  Other than that I could not find any difference between the 07 wiring for the sensors and the WEGO II.  Like I have said.  Twice it has adjusted the VEs.  Why it has done it I don't know.  I do know that it has a very touchy throttle now.

Unless your Daytona Twin Tech TFCI with WEGO II is different then mine, the WEGO II out puts only connect to the stock H-D ECM wirning by two unused terminals as stated in the DTT install package

From what I know the WEGO II will not and does not connect to the serial bus, if that were the case you would know it when tuning with your TTS since it connects to the serial bus.

You know where the pins #8 and #23 (I think these are the right numbers) are that plug into the ECM for the O2 Sensors?  That is where mine are plugged in.

I wonder if this is what waterboarding is like? 

[Ram]

I just left it all hooked up as it was when the DTT TCFI II was in.

I'm going by memory.  But I am pretty sure that the WEGO II is wired to the serial bus and then from the fuse panel to a chassis point for ground.  The fuse panel to chassis point is for the preheating of the sensors.  Other than that I could not find any difference between the 07 wiring for the sensors and the WEGO II.  Like I have said.  Twice it has adjusted the VEs.  Why it has done it I don't know.  I do know that it has a very touchy throttle now.

Unless your Daytona Twin Tech TFCI with WEGO II is different then mine, the WEGO II out puts only connect to the stock H-D ECM wirning by two unused terminals as stated in the DTT install package

From what I know the WEGO II will not and does not connect to the serial bus, if that were the case you would know it when tuning with your TTS since it connects to the serial bus.

You know where the pins #8 and #23 (I think these are the right numbers) are that plug into the ECM for the O2 Sensors?  That is where mine are plugged in.

I wonder if this is what waterboarding is like? 

Pin 8 and 23 are correct for the WEGO II when used in conjunction with the Daytona Twin Tech TFCI ECM

waterboarding

Well Waterboarding is an interesting comparison.

You have to say broken the mold.  A lot of folks want to do “Closed Loop” TTS tuning on older then an '07 year model. 

Others want to experiment with a wide band o2 sensor arrangement for various reasons that I'm not even going to entertain.

How ever all the information that those who have asked may not be actual mechanics or tuners and really want to do what you have done. 

I want to point out one thing that may be a problem with how your set up is connected.  Sure your on 8 and 23 for the dual o2 configuration.  And it just happens to be the same pins as what a stock H-D '07 ECM does use for inputs of the o2 sensors.

But, oh, ya, we have but, in the “Stock” narrow band o2 configuration with stock wiring pin 26 is used . Its stated on the on the 2007 FLHX, FLHT, FLHTC, FLHTCU and etc... etc.... Main Wiring Harness (Page 2 of 2)  diagram from page B-47 of the Factory Service Manual (FSM) that pin 26 is:

5 Volt Sensor Ground.  And is a BK/W wire color.

Since it says ground, it does not mean that its the bike chassis, it does not mean (-) negative 12 volts from the battery either.  Its a statement of function.  In saying that and reading the FSM wiring diagram it does not show an electrical contact to what we normally consider as chassis ground, or â€" 12 volts.

IMO, I believe since its also electrically tied to the following sensors: ET, IAT, TPS and MAP sensors as well as what the factory wiring calls for with its design of the diagram including the o2 sensors.

I believe that its a “Floating” return signal of sorts, whell the actual electrical properties may very well be a â€" 5 volts thus making it not even ground.

What ever its reference level that its floating at, is necessary for the program in the ECM to function properly. 

All that being said.

Your WEGO II may be, or may not be “EXACTLY” what the signal is required to be outputting into the ECM as you have presently wired.

Remember pin 26, the one you have no connection with the WEGO II unit. What is its reference level  from 5 volts??   I perceive it to be chassis (-12 volts) ground.  A common fixed ground. 

This may be exactly what you have had or are having issues your IAT throwing a code. 

So no I'm not waterboarding anybody, I'm just trying to be factual as I can WITH OUT suggesting to  maybe a dozen or more others that this is the golden nugget. And have everybody think they can switch over to a WEGO II with its wide band sensors that are not using the stock wiring harness since the WEGO, comes as a complete installation by itself.  The WEGO II the module, has two o2 sensors, its pre-manufactured wiring harness, a + 12 volt lead to the ignition, and a chassis ground lead (IMO is its reference to the WEGO II output), and out put leads to a DTT TFCI ECM for pins 8 and 23 of a stock H-D wiring harness ECM connector.

Now if anyone else would like to ditch the stock narrow band o2 sensors.  Or not add them to an '05 or an '06 which I'm under the impression from Steve Cole that  TTS is currently working on a calibration to tune those models like the '07's which can be ran in “Closed Loop” operations.

You can do so at your own risk and be aware this has not been fully tested in an manner to gather empirical data in a control environment with any of the proper test equipment.  (that I'm aware of)

I have done my own research on the WEGO II, I own one, with a DTT TFCI.  I will NOT use it in this matter.

However I am building a add on wiring harness to my '06 FLHRI (which never came with dual o2 sensors for any closed loop ops) and I'm adding them just like the '07 FSM diagram referenced above indicates.  I hope to have success doing so. And expect to tune it with the TTS MasterTuner.

RKK, I wish you the best of luck in your endeavor and hope that you can overcome the IAT issue and get on with things with out any incidental damage to anything on your bike.

[WVULTRA]

author=RoadKingKohn

I have the QC176-002-B1.MT7 loaded.

Kohn:  Sorry for my mistake, and thanks for pointing that out.  I remembered "176" and where I've been dealing with PZ176 for some time, it's kinda burned into my brain.   

[WVULTRA]

Ram:

IMO, you've posted some great info and thrown out several ideas.

Thanks for you knowledge!

[RoadKingKohn]

RAM,

Thanks for the info.  I will look into it more.  Hopefully on Saturday morning.

I did look at my front plug tonight and it is very clean in its burn.

Bill

[nc-renegade]

Hi Ram,
That is a good analysis into what might be going on.  I too believe the sensor ground is NOT battery ground, but perhaps the negative input on an opamp and is in fact a full floating system.  This explains a lot.

I was mistaken for how his system was hooked up and now some of this makes sense.

Edit: I certainly would not recommend this connect; the ECM is looking for a 0 to 1V signal.  If close loop is wanted, then just add the narrowband o2 sensors and connect them into the ECM correctly.

Regards,
NC

[RoadKingKohn]

RAM,

Let me ask a question.  If I can get the ground to the 26 pin then it might work?

Bill

[Ram]

Your asking the $10,000,000 question.  If you know what the input and outputs of the stock H-D ECM interface capabilites are spec'ed at, for what impedeance, voltage, pulse or sine wave etc... and how it interacts with the internal ECM program that actually runs the engine as a whole (this is the part that your only able to tune with the TTS, unless of course your the person or group of people that developed and engineered the H-D ECM and have the source codes to access the other aspects of its capabilites). And you have to know what exactly your looking at from the WEGO II out puts which they state is 5 volts.  And that is specifically designed to input directy into the DTT TFCI ECM or to actual o2 indicators (meters of some sort). Thats why its at 5 volts is a good guess.

I think that I've read the H-D narrow band o2's only operate in a 1 volt spectrum in reference to "Lambda".  So what is the upper and lower limits of the WEGO II modules output and how does that corolate to the 1 volt swing (referecned at what ever they use be it to be in, from 5 volts as H-D wiring implies).   

I'm sure you could build a additional compensating circuit that would provide something close as an interface could get from the WEGO II for it to imulate the stock H-D o2s into the the stock H-D ECM.

All of this of course would have to be lab tested with standards and under controlled test events to insure that its not going to adversly effect any of the other sensors that are tied to that pin 26 like the: ET, IAT, TPS and MAP sensors. 

Who did you have in mind to build this interface? 

Surely its not going to be a little resistor bridge, like those who in the past have wanted to richen out the program by adding 3 resistors into each o2 sensor ckt to fool the ECM!

As for what your asking to do will most likely be way less expensive to just buy the '07 o2's and all the stock H-D components to build the connectors to the plug in the stock o2's and wire them as an '07 then tune it as an '07.

[RoadKingKohn]

Your asking the $10,000,000 question.  If you know what the input and outputs of the stock H-D ECM interface capabilites are spec'ed at, for what impedeance, voltage, pulse or sine wave etc... and how it interacts with the internal ECM program that actually runs the engine as a whole (this is the part that your only able to tune with the TTS, unless of course your the person or group of people that developed and engineered the H-D ECM and have the source codes to access the other aspects of its capabilites). And you have to know what exactly your looking at from the WEGO II out puts which they state is 5 volts.  And that is specifically designed to input directy into the DTT TFCI ECM or to actual o2 indicators (meters of some sort). Thats why its at 5 volts is a good guess.

I think that I've read the H-D narrow band o2's only operate in a 1 volt spectrum in reference to "Lambda".  So what is the upper and lower limits of the WEGO II modules output and how does that corolate to the 1 volt swing (referecned at what ever they use be it to be in, from 5 volts as H-D wiring implies).   

I'm sure you could build a additional compensating circuit that would provide something close as an interface could get from the WEGO II for it to imulate the stock H-D o2s into the the stock H-D ECM.

All of this of course would have to be lab tested with standards and under controlled test events to insure that its not going to adversly effect any of the other sensors that are tied to that pin 26 like the: ET, IAT, TPS and MAP sensors. 

Who did you have in mind to build this interface? 

Surely its not going to be a little resistor bridge, like those who in the past have wanted to richen out the program by adding 3 resistors into each o2 sensor ckt to fool the ECM!

As for what your asking to do will most likely be way less expensive to just buy the '07 o2's and all the stock H-D components to build the connectors to the plug in the stock o2's and wire them as an '07 then tune it as an '07.

Just think.  All of this started for me with my Harley Dealer not wanting to cover the bad valve seals under warranty.  But they did offer to turn it into a 95" for a cost. 

[VDeuce]

As for what your asking to do will most likely be way less expensive to just buy the '07 o2's and all the stock H-D components to build the connectors to the plug in the stock o2's and wire them as an '07 then tune it as an '07.

Agreed!

BTW, I just ordered 2 new stock O2 sensors as my rear one is displaying lazy characteristics. Interesting things is that they only had perhaps 6000 miles on them.

The data recordings showed the front sensor kick in about 30 seconds after cold start, with the rear not responding for a few minutes. When they both finally warmed up, you could blip the throttle, watch the spike in RPM and the front responded crisply, whereas the rear would take a lot of time. The rear almost always read a higher voltage than the front.

As a result, my TTS VTune sessions were resulting in too great of a difference between front and rear VEs (like 20%). I also did a compression test (both cylinders were dead on), intake leak test, and exhaust leak tests. All those passed.

If I'm correct, the lazy O2 sensor would result in an over-rich mix. I should start a new thread on this...

[frydaddy96]

VDeuce,  somewhere I read and it might have been by S.C. that you should collect 20 minutes or so of data with DataMaster to see what the O2 sensors are doing to determine if they are going bad.

[VDeuce]

VDeuce,  somewhere I read and it might have been by S.C. that you should collect 20 minutes or so of data with DataMaster to see what the O2 sensors are doing to determine if they are going bad.

I'll run it again tonight and post the logs. I have another thread going about this.

Note that the engine was already warmed up quite a bit when I did these tests initially. These sensors should be able to do their thing within a few minutes, otherwise closed loop really doesn't happen.

[RoadKingKohn]

I must be missing it.  But where is the adjustment on the TTS for hot starts.  Mine starts up fine when cold and puts up a real fight when hot.

[FLTRI]

I must be missing it.  But where is the adjustment on the TTS for hot starts. 

Look at the "warmup enrichment", "cranking fuel", "IAC warmup steps", "IAC crank to run", and "IAC crank steps".
They all affect starting based on engine temp.
HTH,
Bob