Sumping issues solved

[VDeuce]

  Billy...the funny thing about my friends M8 was when he called the dealership and told them he was trailering it back in, they told him that they more than likely knew what the problem was...and the MoCo had came up with the needed fix. Much to their surprise it already had the new plate with the seal in it when they pulled it apart.
  He said the bike ran excellent all the way up to the point when it sumped. It went from being the best running Harley he had ever owned...to his worst. His words...not mine.

The bike was new mid-late summer and had the seal? As far as I'm aware of, the seal was not used in production until at least October '18. Was this a prototype?

[No Cents]

  I don't know. I'm just passing on the info of what he told me. I know he said the dealership was quick to get a MoCo engineers involved with it.
  I do know for a fact that the bike is completely stock and there had not been a bolt turned on it until it sumped...and then it was done by the dealership. The guy doesn't turn wrenches...all his work is done by the dealership on his bikes.

[PoorUB]

Wouldn't  a windage baffle or tray and a few ounces of crankcase capacity,  specifically  at the bottom of the crankcase  solve the problem? Although  Harley  would  have a fairly major casting modification.

I keep thinking  of  guys running V8's with a dry dump setup. I remember guys fitting crank "scrapers" to catch the excess oil.

[1FSTRK]

It is easier than that,  all they need to do is look at 1999 Twin cam and copy it. Basically undo what ever they did to "make the M8 better". If this sounds familiar it is because the oil transfer problem in the primary/tran has the same cure.

There was a time that it was the first rule of engineering;

If you don't understand how it works, how are you going to make it better?

[1workinman]

Today on FB is saw a 150 inch kit an it looked very impressive although I would prefer a little less stroke where it would be able to rpm . At any rate I have giving some thought to running the total seal rings next time as that is suppose to really help with ring seal and I was not till now the na motor benefits from pulling on the ports harder with those rings . If it is a combination of case design and ring seal , perhaps the total seal rings might help . For sure in not in the least interested in buying one till I know there fixed .

[rbabos]

Today on FB is saw a 150 inch kit an it looked very impressive although I would prefer a little less stroke where it would be able to rpm . At any rate I have giving some thought to running the total seal rings next time as that is suppose to really help with ring seal and I was not till now the na motor benefits from pulling on the ports harder with those rings . If it is a combination of case design and ring seal , perhaps the total seal rings might help . For sure in not in the least interested in buying one till I know there fixed .

They won't seal a warped cylinder, which is why so many have more blowby then desired.
Ron

[PoorUB]

If total seal, or gapless rings are so great, how come they are not used by the factory?

[1FSTRK]

If total seal, or gapless rings are so great, how come they are not used by the factory?

Simple
They require very good cylinder bores
and $$$$$$$

[NHBagger]

I realize the 2019s with a 114 are still relatively new, but i can't seem to find much discussion about them sumping?

[sandrooney]

I have an 18 Heritage 114 and so far no problems. I have only read of 2 softails sumping and one of those wasn't sure that was the problem. I just got mine in September of this year and only have 4,000 miles but the oil is always full when I check it and I have never had any of the symptoms, so I am just going to ride and enjoy.

[No Cents]

I have an 18 Heritage 114 and so far no problems. I have only read of 2 softails sumping and one of those wasn't sure that was the problem. I just got mine in September of this year and only have 4,000 miles but the oil is always full when I check it and I have never had any of the symptoms, so I am just going to ride and enjoy.

   I would hope this is what every M8 owner wishes for. Just buy it, and ride it, with confidence that it will run great without any major issues happening. The M8 engine design has been noted that they could possibly sump, and the tranny could also transfer fluid over into the primary. These aren't little issues in my mind...but big ones that are going to take some time for them to get them right. Do I think the MoCo is working on them...hell yes...but they are also watching what is going on with guys in after market world to see what they have come up with for a fix.
   Historically if you look back at the new engines that have been released by the MoCo over the decades...most of them had their issues when they were newly released, and it took some time for them to get a handle on the problems. Sometimes people not even associated with the MoCo came up with the needed fix...and then they would copy the fix.
   There is not doubt in my mind that once they have the bugs completely worked out on the M8 it will go down in the history books as being the best engine they ever produced. The potential of this M8 is impressive...and I think over time we will be amazed at the results we see.

[sandrooney]

I don't think any softails have the transfer problem being they are cable operated.

[joe_lyons]

Udating my findings with installing the updated oil pump backing plate on a 2017 pump resulted with 4oz less oil coming out of the sump plug.  Before little over 10oz and after a little over 6oz.  Still not where I would like to see it but better than before for sure.

[Helmwurst]

Udating my findings with installing the updated oil pump backing plate on a 2017 pump resulted with 4oz less oil coming out of the sump plug.  Before little over 10oz and after a little over 6oz.  Still not where I would like to see it but better than before for sure.

Are you cutting the pushrods for a "quick" install or working from the top down?

[hogpipes1]

  thanks for the info on the sump plug. 
I wasn't aware that the crank position sensor is on the bottom of the M8 cases, and not higher up on the case like a twin cam.  I'm learning. 

I haven't looked under a M-8 at the C-Senser as of yet , two  damn  hard getting up.Can it be damaged  by a rock  on gravel roads.? Any  type of shield around it ? Thanks

[joe_lyons]

Udating my findings with installing the updated oil pump backing plate on a 2017 pump resulted with 4oz less oil coming out of the sump plug.  Before little over 10oz and after a little over 6oz.  Still not where I would like to see it but better than before for sure.

Are you cutting the pushrods for a "quick" install or working from the top down?

Adj. Pushrods.

[Heatwave3]

  Billy...the funny thing about my friends M8 was when he called the dealership and told them he was trailering it back in, they told him that they more than likely knew what the problem was...and the MoCo had came up with the needed fix. Much to their surprise it already had the new plate with the seal in it when they pulled it apart.
  He said the bike ran excellent all the way up to the point when it sumped. It went from being the best running Harley he had ever owned...to his worst. His words...not mine.

Yep, that was my exact experience with my 2017 CVO Limited. Best damn Harley I owned.... till it wasn't! I had 4 engines all replaced under warranty. 3 engines sumped all with Stage IV kits installed by dealer. Original factory engine sumped at 5000miles, #2 sumped at 800 miles. #3 sumped at 1700 miles and I finally got rid of it with #4.

Engine ran fantastic until it sumped but eventually I learned what it takes to make it sump. Just takes about 60 to 90 mins of riding to get the engine and all accessories fully heat soaked. Combine about 60 miles of highway riding at 70-80mph followed by 20-30 miles of backroad twisties run somewhat assertively (shifting around 4-5000rpms). If an M8 engine is susceptible to sumping, I can almost guarantee this little test will make it sump. You'll know it sumped by the power loss but its also very easy to check if its sumping.

Follow the procedure straight from the owner's manual for measuring the oil in the engine before you go for a ride. Than take the test ride described above. When you finish the ride, immediately check the oil level again following the steps precisely from the owner's manual. If your oil level is exactly where it was when you left, you're engine isn't sumping and probably will never sump.

If the dipstick is just slightly down, your engine has a mild case of sumping. Tell the dealer.

If the dipstick shows you down a qt low after this test ride, you have a seriously sumping engine. (The missing oil isn't lost, its just all collected in the crankcase.) It needs to be addressed before you experience engine failure when you least expect it.

Do yourself a favor and take pictures of the dipstick BEFORE and AFTER the ride described above to show your dealer. Remember to tell the dealer you measured the oil exactly the way its described in the owner's manual. Good luck.

[Billy]

So, now I have a 2019 CVO Road Glide in the shop, pulled the CKP sensor and drained 11oz, then pulled the sump plug and got another 5oz, bike was built 8/18 and does not have the upgraded oil pump cover. I guess I'll install the cover upgrade and see how it plays with the FuelMoto 128 kit going on it. 

[Geezer_Glider]

I trust that you will get 'em going! Did the owner notice any heat or power loss? Please let us know how it turns out.
Just saying,
R Meyer

[Pirsch Fire Wagon]

I know a Technician who has had one on his lift for 18 months on and off. Everytime it comes in, Engineering has them do something different. He has literally begged them to ship a replacement Motor - No go. They say they're going to get it figured out. If I were the Owner ................ Well, I'd be on the News. And, not ion a good way.

[Scooterfish]

Sounds like the motor company is using the dealers labor to test their latest idea.

[HV]

Ive done over 10 last summer....at first they were replacing complete short blocks....now only parts that show damage are replaced .....last time I saw things like this with a Company was just before it Tanked and shut down ......they will use ANY excuse they can find to not replace a part......or Void a warranty all together ....sure not the old MOCO for sure.....But they do have a lot of expenses ...like R&D on Electric Bikes     

[sandrooney]

HV Of those 10 were any of them softail?

[Ccdan]

My 19 RGS sumped 80oz after several 120+ mph bursts on the highway.
Bike was tuned totally stock, did not have updated oil pump with seal.
Since then I have done a stage 2 with S&S oil kit, now has 16oz in sump from plug consistently when ever I check it, which is very often.

[Md8181]

I'm new to these engines so this may be a dumb question.  I am considering doing a cam upgrade with the S&S pump/plate.  If I buy this new oil pump cover that is allegedly the fix, can I use it with the S&S oil pump/plate??  Or will it only work on stock stuff??