Sumping issues solved

[Reddog74usa]

That's up to the M8 owner

[Sunny Jim]

Way  back in late 2016 I bought only the second M8 road glide in Western Australia! My miles are not high but I can say it's been a pleasure to own. The smallest amount of trans oil transfer early on but that has settled. We installed a CR460, power vision with Target tune, Air cleaner and street canons. I run it on 98 and use Mobil 1 V twin in the engine.
It brakes well, corners well enough, goes good and sounds reasonable.
It whirs a bit when hot but it truly is a great bike. Incidentally I traded a 2012 sreetglide.

[1workinman]

   I've got a few friends with new M8's too.
I don't question them about anything either. I just keep a watchful eye out and absorb all the things they say that have improved over the previous models. They tell me how the ride is so much better and the new power is simply amazing.
   Then I just show them a twin cam tail light after they tell me how much quicker they are. 
Hoss...I want one...but I think now is not the time for me to get one with all the issues still happening. When I retired a few years ago my plan was to buy myself a new bike. I'm still waiting and I keep hoping that the MoCo will finally step up and get the bugs worked out of them. If not...my new bike money keeps on growing in Edward Jones hands. Maybe I'll be able to buy two bikes by the time they get it straightened out. 

Well after you buy one and its good then I consider one also.  Going to retire in a couple of years . These Harleys have been a learning experience. If the M8 works out and is capable of staying together and makes enough power to make it a fun ride then ok

[Billy]

I have an '18 Fat Bob Softail 114 with the stage 4 117 kit on it in my shop, drained the sump and 16 oz came out. I guess this one is a candidate for the pump cover with the seal?

[HV]

Sure sounds like it

[joe_lyons]

Does anyone know what was changed with the oil pumps from 17-19 other than the back plate?

[1FSTRK]

Does anyone know what was changed with the oil pumps from 17-19 other than the back plate?

The ID of the flywheel return suction nipple where it plugs into the case is one thing they made smaller.

[rbabos]

Does anyone know what was changed with the oil pumps from 17-19 other than the back plate?

The ID of the flywheel return suction nipple where it plugs into the case is one thing they made smaller.

That might be a good thing.
Ron

[1FSTRK]

Does anyone know what was changed with the oil pumps from 17-19 other than the back plate?

The ID of the flywheel return suction nipple where it plugs into the case is one thing they made smaller.

That might be a good thing.
Ron

It is the right idea just the wrong place to do it, but it sure won't hurt anything.

[joe_lyons]

I guess I don't see where that would help because the passage going down toward the sump plug is smaller but who knows.  Maybe to strengthen the nipple itself.  Gonna try an updated back plate on a 2017 oil pump to see if it helps with sumping.  Got 10oz out of the sump on a current one I'm working on.

[RoadGlideRob]

I have 2 questions:
1. Why is it that not every M8 is sumping if its a manufacturing defect? just the differences in tolerances or how each engine is assembled?  as bad as this seems to be you'd think every single one would do it
2. For checking for the sumping problem does it have to be done immediately after a ride or a hard ride?  in other words, if I ride it hard down the interstate but then take city streets back to my garage will I see the same results as I would if I had pulled off the side of the interstate and pulled the sensor?

[1FSTRK]

I guess I don't see where that would help because the passage going down toward the sump plug is smaller but who knows.  Maybe to strengthen the nipple itself.  Gonna try an updated back plate on a 2017 oil pump to see if it helps with sumping.  Got 10oz out of the sump on a current one I'm working on.

They are most likely trying to regulate the return galley oil so the return gears do not loose prime because of the pressure pulses from the pistons. Think torque cones in the top of the exhaust pipe.

[cbumdumb]

I have 2 questions:
1. Why is it that not every M8 is sumping if its a manufacturing defect? just the differences in tolerances or how each engine is assembled?  as bad as this seems to be you'd think every single one would do it
2. For checking for the sumping problem does it have to be done immediately after a ride or a hard ride?  in other words, if I ride it hard down the interstate but then take city streets back to my garage will I see the same results as I would if I had pulled off the side of the interstate and pulled the sensor?

Mine sumped just off idle leaving a gas station no pattern to me they just seam to be all over the place . Mine was basically stock and sumped 300+ miles after the 5000 mile service

[Helmwurst]

Had not looked at this topic in a few weeks. Just read this morning that Fueling recommends the following steps:
(Yes,I copies these notes from their website on their 7096 pump/plate kit.)

Note: The M-Eight oil pick up port is on the right side of the engine. Letting the bike idle or warm up on the kickstand will naturally fill the engine case and skew the oil level in the tank.

We recommend the following steps to achieve proper oil level:
1. Check cold oil level.
2. Ride the bike until operating temperature is reached.
3. Shut the bike off while still in the upright position. (This insures an accurate reading)
4. Once the bike is on the kickstand check oil level.
5. Add or remove oil as needed.

[Billy]

I have an '18 Fat Bob Softail 114 with the stage 4 117 kit on it in my shop, drained the sump and 16 oz came out. I guess this one is a candidate for the pump cover with the seal?

After installing the upgrade cover and before installing the cam drive sprocket on the pinion shaft, I turned the engine by the rear wheel and it would blow an extraordinary amount  of air out the end of the pinion I haven't experienced yet, (first experience with M8, but 100's of Evo's & TC's) I'm assuming once the sprocket is bolted in place sealing this hole, the pressure from the piston downstroke will force sump oil through scavenge port to the pump eliminating excess.

[C#]

Yep if I were an M8 owner I'd keep it stock and ride the snot out of em till they blow and make em install new engines till this get made right. This should be the moco's problem not yours 

Uh... I would say that the Moco doesn't own up to much of anything these days... maybe if you own 3 bikes and replace them every year...

[joe_lyons]

I have an '18 Fat Bob Softail 114 with the stage 4 117 kit on it in my shop, drained the sump and 16 oz came out. I guess this one is a candidate for the pump cover with the seal?

After installing the upgrade cover and before installing the cam drive sprocket on the pinion shaft, I turned the engine by the rear wheel and it would blow an extraordinary amount  of air out the end of the pinion I haven't experienced yet, (first experience with M8, but 100's of Evo's & TC's) I'm assuming once the sprocket is bolted in place sealing this hole, the pressure from the piston downstroke will force sump oil through scavenge port to the pump eliminating excess.

My findings as well.  Spun motor over with stock 17 setup and then installed the updated back plate and the force needed to turn the motor over was definitely increased.  Must be using the crankcase positive pressure to force oil into the sump galley.

[rbabos]

I have an '18 Fat Bob Softail 114 with the stage 4 117 kit on it in my shop, drained the sump and 16 oz came out. I guess this one is a candidate for the pump cover with the seal?

After installing the upgrade cover and before installing the cam drive sprocket on the pinion shaft, I turned the engine by the rear wheel and it would blow an extraordinary amount  of air out the end of the pinion I haven't experienced yet, (first experience with M8, but 100's of Evo's & TC's) I'm assuming once the sprocket is bolted in place sealing this hole, the pressure from the piston downstroke will force sump oil through scavenge port to the pump eliminating excess.

My findings as well.  Spun motor over with stock 17 setup and then installed the updated back plate and the force needed to turn the motor over was definitely increased.  Must be using the crankcase positive pressure to force oil into the sump galley.

Joe. You see the problem here? It's suppose to vent this air out into the cam chest then up the pushrod tubes. No way in hell there should be resistance from the crank cavity compressing the air to the point it can be felt with turning the engine over, especially with the cam cover off.
Starting to sound like the venting system is the root cause of sumping and how these pressures effect the inlet side of the pump. Then again wtf do I know but the cam and crank area should be a shared chamber for air exchanging and correct case breathing?
Ron

[No Cents]

I have an '18 Fat Bob Softail 114 with the stage 4 117 kit on it in my shop, drained the sump and 16 oz came out. I guess this one is a candidate for the pump cover with the seal?

  I know of a M8 that was purchased a few months back in mid to late summer. It sumped with less than 4K miles on it. It had to be trailered back to the dealership. The owner witnessed 20 ounces of oil that came out of the sump. Upon further inspection it had this latest plate with the oil seal installed in it from the factory. I personally don't think they are on target yet for the needed fix.
   I'm still a firm believer that the engine cases and the cam chest are not venting properly...but what the hell do I know.    I will say that this is the only thing stopping me from buying one.

  added later:
   their "fix" was to bolt it all back together and for him to take the bike back and ride it until it did it again...wtf 
   I do believe he is getting a lawyer involved.

[1FSTRK]

I have an '18 Fat Bob Softail 114 with the stage 4 117 kit on it in my shop, drained the sump and 16 oz came out. I guess this one is a candidate for the pump cover with the seal?

  I know of a M8 that was purchased a few months back in mid to late summer. It sumped with less than 4K miles on it. It had to be trailered back to the dealership. The owner witnessed 20 ounces of oil that came out of the sump. Upon further inspection it had this latest plate with the oil seal installed in it from the factory. I personally don't think they are on target yet for the needed fix.
   I'm still a firm believer that the engine cases and the cam chest are not venting properly...but what the hell do I know.    I will say that this is the only thing stopping me from buying one.

  added later:
   their "fix" was to bolt it all back together and for him to take the bike back and ride it until it did it again...wtf 
   I do believe he is getting a lawyer involved.

You only need to vent what blows by the rings. Most of the time running in the mid rpms a harley should be zero pressure to a slight vacuum in the cases.

[No Cents]

  Eric...do you think that is happening with the M8?
Something has to be keeping the oil down in the sump. Could it be a bad case design? Or maybe something else?

[1FSTRK]

  Eric...do you think that is happening with the M8?
Something has to be keeping the oil down in the sump. Could it be a bad case design? Or maybe something else?

I think it has to do with both ring seal and case design. The flywheel side of the pump has always been touchy on a Harley, if you read your history they have battled flywheel sumping every time they changed case or oil pump design starting with the first twin cylinder they made.

[No Cents]

     
  you would think by now the MoCo would have figured this out. I'm not willing to be a beta tester for them.
With all these big bore kits coming to the market...I wonder how long it will be before the guys that put them on voiding their warranty will be happy. This engine is in it's infant stages and I hope they get a handle on this problem sooner than later. The potential of the M8 is without question...the longevity is what I question. No engine will last if it is sumping like what is happening.
  One part I'm not grasping is how can it not sump for a few thousand miles...then start sumping...or does it take that long for the oil to slowly build up over time in the cases to where it is finally noticeable to the owner.   

[Billy]

I have an '18 Fat Bob Softail 114 with the stage 4 117 kit on it in my shop, drained the sump and 16 oz came out. I guess this one is a candidate for the pump cover with the seal?

  I know of a M8 that was purchased a few months back in mid to late summer. It sumped with less than 4K miles on it. It had to be trailered back to the dealership. The owner witnessed 20 ounces of oil that came out of the sump. Upon further inspection it had this latest plate with the oil seal installed in it from the factory. I personally don't think they are on target yet for the needed fix.
   I'm still a firm believer that the engine cases and the cam chest are not venting properly...but what the hell do I know.    I will say that this is the only thing stopping me from buying one.

  added later:
   their "fix" was to bolt it all back together and for him to take the bike back and ride it until it did it again...wtf 
   I do believe he is getting a lawyer involved.

I'll know in a few weeks if this one is still sumping, initial road test felt real strong, broke loose easily with a second gear roll on. The owner has it back now and is planning on a dyno tune at Wide Open Cycle, I believe it just has the SE canned load in it now.

[No Cents]

  Billy...the funny thing about my friends M8 was when he called the dealership and told them he was trailering it back in, they told him that they more than likely knew what the problem was...and the MoCo had came up with the needed fix. Much to their surprise it already had the new plate with the seal in it when they pulled it apart.
  He said the bike ran excellent all the way up to the point when it sumped. It went from being the best running Harley he had ever owned...to his worst. His words...not mine.