Auto Tunes

[arussell52]

Considering doing a Vance and Hines Fuelpak Auto-Tune on a 2015 CVO Streeglde. Any of you guys have used this tuner? If so, what are your thoughts? Any suggestions on other can tunes? Just trying to add a little more fuel to the fuel and air mixture. Want the bike to run a little cooler.

[markymark]

Many posts here on tuners and such. V&H does not seem to be highly rated.

[arussell52]

Thanks! That seems to be what I am hearing from other places also.

[1workinman]

I recommend having the bike tuned but I also going to suggest that to pick up the bike when the motor is dead cold and start it up and see how it idles cold and to also drive it and see how it runs like off idle . Drive it in many throttle positions not just WFO just an idea good luck

[kd]

   A real tune is not just WFO and a graph. It is driveability, cold, warm and hot starting, detonation (or the absence of it), hot engine temp, raw fuel smell if any, and decel to name a few.  Extra power and decent mileage is the result of getting all that right.  Vet out the tuner you choose for experience and success rate and use the device they like the best for the best outcome.  There are only a few devices that seem to be recommended here.  Do some dyno page comparisons in the dyno section to get some ideas.  Good luck. 

[sfmichael]

just say no to the Fuelpak 

[Y2KRKNG]

90% of the HD guys buy a bike and put the $500 air cleaner they like to look at and some louder pipes that look pretty. For these guys a $200-$300 FP3 is well spent IF it's that or nothing at all.

[1workinman]

90% of the HD guys buy a bike and put the $500 air cleaner they like to look at and some louder pipes that look pretty. For these guys a $200-$300 FP3 is well spent IF it's that or nothing at all.

Well that is probably true lol

[No Cents]

just say no to the Fuelpak 

   ^ ^ ^ ^
  this   
   get yourself an actual tuning device like TTS or Power Vision...then have a true professional dyno tuner tune it. You will feel the difference and the bike should run cooler after having a proper tune installed.

[arussell52]

Thanks, guys! I appreciate the feedback!

[FLFBRider]

I don't get all the hate for the Fuelpac3.
I have a 09' Fatboy 96tc. I purchased the Fuelpac3 when I did the stage 1, which consisted of Rinehart slip ons, AN filter and intake. I downloaded the canned V&H map for my combo and it ran fantastic.

When I later went to S&S 551 cams I again selected the canned map that matched my cams and installed that. It ran like crap. It stumbled, would backfire and I lost all my gas mileage. I called V&H and told them how it was running. No problem they said. They had me send them the map I was running and they adjusted it on their end and over the phone flashed it back into my bikes ECM. Took maybe 10 minutes.

Night and day difference!
It was running excellent with no more stumble, no more backfire and my mileage was back to normal. I put in a new set of plugs and ran it for 200 miles. Pulled the plugs and the front cylinder was just a tad rich.

Got V&H on the phone and they again adjusted my map and reflashed it to my ECM. Cleaned the plugs and rode another 200 miles. Checked the plugs and they are perfect. Very easy process and retuning cost me nothing other than some new plugs. Bike runs outstanding. Runs cool and fuel mileage has actually improved a little.

I love the Fuelpac. V&H has been setting performance records for along time now and they have dominated various forms of motorcycle racing for years now. I would think they might know a few things about tuning a Harley engine this way. What's also nice is that any updates to the Fuelpac system is automatically downloaded to your app. at no cost to you.

Personally I hate the idea of paying someone $400 to run the crap out of my bike for 3 hours and then hand me a sheet of paper that means nothing to me. I can't ride the paper. I want real riding results I can feel. Tuners are just doing the same thing as the Fuelpac only on a machine. They just adjust numbers on a tuner of their liking and charge tons of money.

Maybe professional tuners hate the Fuelpac because people who purchase it don't need to go to a pro tuner any longer? Not knocking the pro tuners out there, I just didn't need one to get my bike running fantastic.

[Ohio HD]

How do you know it's running as good as it can with the parts you paid for? Also you have no idea where the AFR values are at. As well the fuel pack is limited as to what it can adjust.

Since this is a tech site, that's why there is no love for a plug and guess product. 99% of everyone here knows that a full dyno tune will be the best way to make sure the motor doesn't have rich or lean spots (resulting in motor heat), as well as getting all of the low, mid and upper end power you paid for with the parts you installed.

[FLFBRider]

I know it runs fantastic!
I know it runs cool.
I know the plugs look perfect.
I know my fuel mileage is better now.
I know I still have $400 in my pocket.
I know my bike wasn't run to the rev limiter for 3 hours off and on.

And most of all, I know I'm extremely happy with the performance and the customer support from V&H. What's not to like? 

[FLFBRider]

Would also like to add: For every 1 person that hates the Fuelpac there are hundreds that absolutely LOVE it! You only hear from the haters usually.

It's like everything else out there. Your gonna have haters and lovers.

[Ohio HD]

I know it runs fantastic!
I know it runs cool.
I know the plugs look perfect.
I know my fuel mileage is better now.
I know I still have $400 in my pocket.
I know my bike wasn't run to the rev limiter for 3 hours off and on.

And most of all, I know I'm extremely happy with the performance and the customer support from V&H. What's not to like? 

I know it runs fantastic!  Where's the proof? Dyno sheet, drag strip time slip?

I know it runs cool.  What was the average head temperature before, and what is it now?

I know the plugs look perfect.  Did you know that modern unleaded fuels don't leave color like leaded gas did? Of course you didn't.

I know my fuel mileage is better now.  So it's running leaner huh?

I know I still have $400 in my pocket.  So?

I know my bike wasn't run to the rev limiter for 3 hours off and on.  A good dyno tune last longer than 3 hours. And 90% of the tuning is way below the rev limiter. You're uninformed.

Remember, this is a tech site, not a I think and feel site.

Glad that your happy.

[FLFBRider]

Considering doing a Vance and Hines Fuelpak Auto-Tune on a 2015 CVO Streeglde. Any of you guys have used this tuner? If so, what are your thoughts? Any suggestions on other can tunes? Just trying to add a little more fuel to the fuel and air mixture. Want the bike to run a little cooler.

The OP was looking for opinions on the V&H unit and for their thoughts.
I gave him my opinion and thoughts just like he asked. I thought I was being helpful.

I guess your opinion and thoughts differ from mine and you felt the need to be combative and immature in your view. So I guess anyone who has a different view from yours gets treated like this? How can your views be benifical to the OP's original question? 

[Coyote]

If fuelpack auto tune is so good, tell me why you had to keep asking for maps from them. 

[FLFBRider]

I know it runs fantastic!  Where's the proof? Dyno sheet, drag strip time slip?
MY BUTT and 30 years of riding Harleys.

I know it runs cool.  What was the average head temperature before, and what is it now?
Based on oil temp.

I know the plugs look perfect.  Did you know that modern unleaded fuels don't leave color like leaded gas did? Of course you didn't.
Untrue. Plugs will still show over rich and excessive lean conditions and oil fouling.
NASCAR fuel is Sunoco Green E15, a 98 octane, unleaded fuel (modern fuel) they rely heavily on reading plugs for track tuning. I guess they never got the memo.

I know my fuel mileage is better now.  So it's running leaner huh?
Fuel mileage is increased due to engine efficiency and proper tune.

I know I still have $400 in my pocket.  So?
So I'm retired and on a fixed income. $400 in my pocket feels pretty good!

[FLFBRider]

If fuelpack auto tune is so good, tell me why you had to keep asking for maps from them. 

I didn;t ask for a new map, only a tweek on my current map. Took a whole 10 minutes and $0 dollars. Let's see a pro tuner do that! Lets say your on a ride and your bike starts running excessively lean, what do you do? With your tuner you run back to the guy that tuned it and pay him for his services. How long does that take?

Me, I call V&H and get it corrected. Took 10 minutes and $0 dollars! Bike runs perfect! Yea, I'll stick with V&H. 

[Coyote]

If fuelpack auto tune is so good, tell me why you had to keep asking for maps from them. 

I didn;t ask for a new map, only a tweek on my current map. Took a whole 10 minutes and $0 dollars. Let's see a pro tuner do that! Lets say your on a ride and your bike starts running excessively lean, what do you do? With your tuner you run back to the guy that tuned it and pay him for his services. How long does that take?

Me, I call V&H and get it corrected. Took 10 minutes and $0 dollars! Bike runs perfect! Yea, I'll stick with V&H. 

Actually I tuned my bike (myself) with a Power Vision.  It never just ends up lean.

Again, why would you need to go back to V&H for help if you have an Auto Tuner? Shouldn't it just, uh, Autotune?

I'll add this as well. You keep saying your bike runs great. The thing is, "great" to you just means it runs as good as you've ever had it run. It does not mean it runs as well as it could, or even close to that. If you're happy with that, then that's good for you. But as a tech site, it's important to let the OP know he could do better than a FP3. I know he could, it's been shown time and time again.

[98fxstc]

As Steve Cole says

"The Best you know, is the Best you've had........ not necessarily the Best."

I guess it is also important to understand what you want
The Fuelpak maybe good enough for some people, maybe good enough for some on this forum
But on a tech site such as this one there are many who want the best performance and know the Fuelpak does not cut it
For anyone content with stock or stage 1 the Fuelpak may be ok

[Nastytls]

I know my fuel mileage is better now.  So it's running leaner huh?
Fuel mileage is increased due to engine efficiency and proper tune.

I'm sorry, you literally have no idea if you have a proper tune or not. That is a 100% indisputable fact.

Most people think their bike runs great from the factory... that is, until they have their stock bike tuned and realize they were wrong. It was "good enough" to meet EPA reg's. I'm not a Dyno operator, so I have no dog in this fight. That being said, you're making blanket statements based on ignorance on the subject, which is not helpful for those seeking informed opinions. While you may feel that good enough is "great", it is not for many other guys. Then again, it is clearly good enough for a lot.

[FXDBI]

If fuelpack auto tune is so good, tell me why you had to keep asking for maps from them. 

I didn;t ask for a new map, only a tweek on my current map. Took a whole 10 minutes and $0 dollars. Let's see a pro tuner do that! Lets say your on a ride and your bike starts running excessively lean, what do you do? With your tuner you run back to the guy that tuned it and pay him for his services. How long does that take?

Me, I call V&H and get it corrected. Took 10 minutes and $0 dollars! Bike runs perfect! Yea, I'll stick with V&H. 

Ignorance is bliss... Bob

[kd]

   Maybe someone that has had both experiences will chime in.  Most just do their research and make informed choices.  BTW, if a part of my TTS tune is closed loop and I experience a change, I can lift the tune data and send it to my tuner for a tweek too.

[FXDBI]

I should also add I  bought my power vision from Fuel Moto and they will send me new maps or view data logging and adjust the map for free has well. FP3 just doesn't have the features of a real tuner.  Bob

[PoorUB]

Considering doing a Vance and Hines Fuelpak Auto-Tune on a 2015 CVO Streeglde. Any of you guys have used this tuner? If so, what are your thoughts? Any suggestions on other can tunes? Just trying to add a little more fuel to the fuel and air mixture. Want the bike to run a little cooler.

The OP was looking for opinions on the V&H unit and for their thoughts.
I gave him my opinion and thoughts just like he asked. I thought I was being helpful.

I guess your opinion and thoughts differ from mine and you felt the need to be combative and immature in your view. So I guess anyone who has a different view from yours gets treated like this? How can your views be benifical to the OP's original question? 

I would not call Ohio's comments opinions. Closer to facts than yours.

Fuel Pack gets a bad name here because of guys in the business that have tried to tune with it, and also used other tuners. These are guys that do this every day, not just your once or twice on your own bike.

Also, like Ohio said, a good dyno operator does not flog your bike against the rev limiter for hours, most of the tuning is running the engine at various loads and various RPM. sure there is some wide open runs, but the engine can handle it.

Pretty much without exception anyone that loves the Fuel Pack is someone with little or no actual tuning experience and never tried any other tuner. "I used it, it worked, (As far as I know), so it has to be great!"

I have to wonder if Fuel Pack is so great why all the calls and downloads? I thought you could DIY tune with Fuel Pack? I use the TTS Tuner, down loaded one calibration and tune myself from there. I might have had a couple questions in the beginning, but never had to have TTS send me revised maps.

[PoorUB]

Maybe professional tuners hate the Fuelpac because people who purchase it don't need to go to a pro tuner any longer? Not knocking the pro tuners out there, I just didn't need one to get my bike running fantastic.

First, watch your quotes.

Second, other tuners out there will allow a do it yourself tune, nothing special about that. I have tuned two Harleys and helped my buddy tune two of his Harleys using the TTS tuner. No dyno involved.

[PoorUB]

I didn;t ask for a new map, only a tweek on my current map. Took a whole 10 minutes and $0 dollars.

New or revised, no difference. The point in you had to call.

I use the TTS. I can revise the map myself, in a couple minutes and reflash the ECM and get on down the road while you are waiting. I thought the Fuel Pack was a DIY tuner?

[sharkoilfield]

I'm a firm believer in a QUALIFIED dyno tune. Easy to dismiss with rationalizing, especially if you've never had one. I've had 5 HD's dyno tuned 8-10 times in total as different builds were done. The most basic, my wife's STG1 '08 with S&S cams, received a two day dyno session (free; I had a connection) and is easily the SMOOTHEST Harley I've ever ridden. For a short while I had two 103's; 111HP with a CV51 and 90HP with EFI. The carb ran 25° cooler. 13.6:1 AFR. Not easily attainable on EFI.  While I'm certain a "canned" tune can be adequate, nobody's butt is as accurate as a competent dyno tune.

[Buglet]

   What are the chances of having two Pro Tuners tune the same bike on the same dyno and end up with the same map. Which one would be the better one. I've being to enough Pro tuners around the country and not one of them tune the same as another one, they all run good at the end of the tune.I can go farther but I won't I don't want to start nothing.But if you don't believes my have you bike Pro tune and then go to another Pro tuner and tell him to tune it and sees what he says at the end and you won't be ably the tell the difference except for a lighter pocket. Each tuner has there on way of doing things. All you have to do is follow this site and you will see this.

[kd]

   What are the chances of having two Pro Tuners tune the same bike on the same dyno and end up with the same map. Which one would be the better one. I've being to enough Pro tuners around the country and not one of them tune the same as another one, they all run good at the end of the tune.I can go farther but I won't I don't want to start nothing.But if you don't believes my have you bike Pro tune and then go to another Pro tuner and tell him to tune it and sees what he says at the end and you won't be ably the tell the difference except for a lighter pocket. Each tuner has there on way of doing things. All you have to do is follow this site and you will see this.

Better yet, what are the chances the re-tune was at the same altitude, temperature, humidity and barometric pressure?  Could the tune have changed somewhere due to an engine condition and closed loop influence?  Those same tuners on this site will caution you about that.  I would be disappointed if a good tuner didn't notice these things and tweek it to the conditions he was reading and instead say "Ohhh that's good enough."  In that case I might as well use an FP3 and settle for a mediocre "that's good enough no need to check all starting, idle, operating conditions and AFR "  tune..

[Buglet]

   Do theses tunes change for the better or the worst. Than how often should you have it re tuned.   

[kd]

   Do theses tunes change for the better or the worst. Than how often should you have it re tuned.   

I am not a tuner but I am a licenced technician so I feel I understand the technical operation of a tuning device fairly well and will give you my take on the tuner.  It really isn't rocket science and easy for anyone to pick up if they are willing to be open minded enough to introduce themselves to some reading.

My opinion is that (depending on which parameters are open or closed loop) a tune should be safe and not change significantly enough to effect AFR, temperature and performance in any real noticeable way for the duration you subject your vehicle to changes in surrounding conditions. (altitude is a good example) Open loop is basically setting the parameters based on input and function, then removing the device's ability to connect to that information and allow it to make changes.  Closed loop is the circuit (information highway) is connected and communicating at lightening speed to changes in conditions and may be making fine corrections.  Having said that, riding up a mountain and sudden changes in altitude, air density, humidity and all else will likely be noticed for the duration.  If the tune is closed loop the device or ECM will make minor adjustments to what it senses. It may not have the time or the ability to conduct itself to such a vast change in such a short time because a small change in one area will effect the area next to it etc. and that has to be dealt with.  If open loop there is no real connection to the sensors that identify changing conditions to the system that is there to buffer unfavorable effects of changing conditions so no change will be made. (much the same as a carb is set with specific metering devices and can't "move to correct AFR with changes in conditions".  With a good tuner like the TTS or PV devices (there are others too), it is a simple matter of running a data log and reading (looking at the picture on a computer) of the way the tune is meeting the engine's needs. You can usually manually even out rough spots to improve any areas that changed because you have relocated to a different area or changed an exhaust system etc.

If the device is capable, some changes will be for the better, but in extreme conditions it could be for the worse too.  I have recently noticed my engine will hunt slightly about 6 to 10 times (1o seconds) on a real cold start before it hits the high idle warm up procedure.  Because of my extreme performance mods the start and warm-up area of the tune is open loop to keep it consistently a good starting engine.  The initial tune was interrupted with a ring issue and since that was remedied the tune has to be brought into compliance so to speak.  My tuner (9 hours away) asked me to run a data log and send it to him. He will read the levels (look at the picture) and reset any cells to be closer to ideal and holding hands with the neighboring cells.

Babble over. Hope that helps and if I miss stated anything I hope to be corrected.

[aswracing]

My big objection to the FP3 is V&H's closed ecosystem. They control all tune distribution. They know and control what's in everyone's bike. There is no PC app for modifying your tune, and there is no emailing a tune to a customer, it's all controlled by V&H. Just like Facebook and Google and Microsoft and all the others, they want to reach into your shorts and invade your privacy and be in control. It's the new way of doing business I guess. And so long as people let them do it, they will.

But it's also a tool that doesn't integrate with any of the common tools you'll find in a dyno setting. There's no way for example to measure AFR with an aftermarket tool and feed the information back into the tune in any kind of an automated fashion, because there's no PC app, because V&H wants control of the tune.

Now I realize they recently came out with a wide band tool. But it's a shop level product. V&H wants shops to buy this tool, develop tunes, and upload them to V&H for distribution. Uhh, no thanks. What I'm sending to my customers is none of V&H's business and they are not entitled to a copy of it. And there's still no consumer-level wide band tuning tool, ala Auto Tune Pro. Much less closed-loop Wide Band. It's an inferior tool for tuning a bike, and anyone who doesn't understand that just doesn't know anything about tuning.

[spdrcr]

Powervision with Target Tune and the wide band O2 sensors are the best choice for a DIY person.

[Hossamania]

Powervision with Target Tune and the wide band O2 sensors are the best choice for a DIY person.

Depends on the person. I think PoorUB used TTS and got his dialed in.
Not knocking PowerVision and TargetTune, they are very good products.

[VernDiesel]

Great and insightful thread. I cut my learning curve just from reading it.