124" Project Storm Breaker

[turboprop]

The clutch that will be used for this project will be a Bandit 039831 Sportsman Super Clutch. I remembered that there was some talk about some of the Bandit clutch baskets bottoming on the inner primary bearing race when an S&S race was used. I've had this clutch since 2016, had not been used.

So I made a quick sketch of the clutch hub where it goes over the transmission shaft. I then dimension the length of the splined snout and sent it to John Magee. He replied almost instantly, and told me the length I have indicated will not come in contact with the S&S bearing race.


So this dimension shown will clear the S&S inner primary race.




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I think the actual amount to be removed is somewhat variable as the location of the inner race is not absolute. If the goal is to keep as much of the hub on the shaft as possible then it might make sense to remove some material and fit it to the hub, remove some more, fit, etc until there is a gap of say .010" between the race and the torqued in place hub. Or maybe just take it all in one swipe. My guess is you would want want to creep up on it and get the air gap as close as possible.

The clutch that Bandit sent to me in 2018 (this one) was already 1.343". I was just checking with John that this length was their corrected length for use with the S&S race. He said that the length I have now is ok for the S&S race.

I agree though, if machining the length down, taking off a little at a time is the best approach.

I would still check it on the main shaft prior to pressing it into the basket.

[Ohio HD]

The clutch that will be used for this project will be a Bandit 039831 Sportsman Super Clutch. I remembered that there was some talk about some of the Bandit clutch baskets bottoming on the inner primary bearing race when an S&S race was used. I've had this clutch since 2016, had not been used.

So I made a quick sketch of the clutch hub where it goes over the transmission shaft. I then dimension the length of the splined snout and sent it to John Magee. He replied almost instantly, and told me the length I have indicated will not come in contact with the S&S bearing race.


So this dimension shown will clear the S&S inner primary race.




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I think the actual amount to be removed is somewhat variable as the location of the inner race is not absolute. If the goal is to keep as much of the hub on the shaft as possible then it might make sense to remove some material and fit it to the hub, remove some more, fit, etc until there is a gap of say .010" between the race and the torqued in place hub. Or maybe just take it all in one swipe. My guess is you would want want to creep up on it and get the air gap as close as possible.

The clutch that Bandit sent to me in 2018 (this one) was already 1.343". I was just checking with John that this length was their corrected length for use with the S&S race. He said that the length I have now is ok for the S&S race.

I agree though, if machining the length down, taking off a little at a time is the best approach.

I would still check it on the main shaft prior to pressing it into the basket.

Absolutely.

[No Cents]

 a Mueller ramp will work great with your Bandit clutch set up. 

[Ohio HD]

Since I didn't have any power for a couple of nights last week, I decided to do some electronic mock up of my top end and see how much clearance I should have with regard to valve to piston and valve to valve clearance. This of course doesn't replace actual claying of valve to piston, and checking valve to valve through the spark plug opening. But it does tell you if you may have some problematic clearances before turning the motor over.

These first two images I was able to create inside of Engine Analyzer Pro. Once I had the setup sheet that Jim provides (lots of pertinent valve & head information), I was able to setup the simulation.

The first image is at 360° checking TDC lift and valve to valve. I should have -0.061" of the intake valve inside the pocket in the piston. These pockets are 0.240" deep, so no concerns with being able to clay the clearance.

The second image shows the position of the valves and piston at 368°, 8° after TDC. The valve at that point is opening fast enough to actually start to catch up with the piston, that's now 0.030" down the cylinder. I should have approximately -0.086" intake valve to piston. This is not easily checked for accuracy this way. It has to be clayed because I can't describe the cam lobes accurately to the program. So it's at best an estimate. After 368° the piston will move away from the intake valve very quickly.

The TDC lift should be really close to reality as the TDC number is supplied by the cam manufacturer. This set of cams has an intake TDC lift of 0.286", so they're very aggressive cams.

The third image was my drawing the mock up to double check the Engine Analyzer Pro, and it all checks out with their calculations.

Not all cams will peak out at 368°, but somewhere between 364° to 372° is where the intake valve comes closest to the piston. Depends on the cams at what crankshaft degrees.


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[Wookie3011]

Any updates on the build Ohio HD?

[Ohio HD]

Nothing of any consequence as of right now. Working on home projects that require better weather. I'll get started on final assembly of the motor in a few months.

[Ohio HD]

My pistons came back yesterday. I thought a long time as to using the Line2Line abradable coating or something else. I ended up calling a few coating businesses and asked them about their products, Line2Line I had already spoken to. I ended up sending the pistons to Polymer Dynamics out of Houston Texas. I spoke with the owner and founder of the business, Carl Benton. He's an extremely knowledgeable man who got started in the coating business in the 1970's. I'm sure he's forgotten more about coatings than any of us know about them.

I had the skirts coated with their ceramic reinforced dry film skirt coating. The piston domes I had them coated with their ceramic piston coating.

The main reason I decided to skip the Line2Line is the break-in requirements. To clarify, if I used the coating to fill the piston clearance to the cylinder, the break in requirements are lengthy due to the wear in of the coating. Piston manufacturers that use Line2Line don't have the coating applied to a fill the clearance thickness, so they don't see the stringent break in requirements. With a new motor that will be untuned, and will no doubt get hot fast, I'm concerned by the lengthy break in. So I opted for a dry film coating.

Carl Benton NASA to NASCAR



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[JSD]

Very nice. Thanks for sharing.

[FSG]

have you tried their gun oil ?

[Ohio HD]

have you tried their gun oil ?

Dang it! I meant to order some to try when they called for a credit card number and forgot all about it.

[Ohio HD]

I sent my Baker Grudgebox (brand new out of the box) that'll go behind this motor to Liberty's Gears a few weeks ago. Yesterday Terry from Liberty's called me to let me know my transmission probably won't ship till mid next week or the end of next week. The reason is that as he explained that sometimes during the cryogenic process the Rockwell hardness will rise. He said due to that they're going to reprocess everything in order to achieve the results they want. I told him no problem, when it's ready ship it.

It makes me feel a lot better knowing that they actually are checking that the product they send out is as it should be for best results. They're not just running it through the process and shipping it to the customer.

I also want to thank hrdtail78 for suggesting to me that I look into processing the gears to help prevent the stripping of the gear teeth. That's what sparked me to look into what might be the best process to try.

Something else I learned from Terry is that they have performed work for Star Racing. They also build the upgraded M8 compensator ramps for Star. This is a video from George Bryce's FB site. In the video you hear George speak about Liberty's Gears and how long he's used them.


FB Video from GB's page  


https://libertysgears.com/

[JSD]

Gorge says Liberty has been the go to for his racing gears. 

[HighLiner]

Curious to know if you'd heard of any gear issues with the grudgebox?

[Ohio HD]

I have not. But strengthening the components and surface preparation has more value than just hopefully helping to insure no gear striping under hard shifts. You get less wear on all of the components. That includes the dog clutch, back cuts in the gears, the shifter drum assembly, gear faces, shifter forks, etc.

This whole project is my best foot forward.   

[Wookie3011]

 

[Ohio HD]

So does anyone else use grade eight bolts on your motor stand.   

I'm finally getting caught up on home projects that have been due for a few years. Not anywhere near done, just getting caught up. I honestly don't know how I had time to work all my life. I seriously guess that's why I only slept three or four hours a night when I was working.

I completed two motors for two friends, I've been working on a few other guys bikes with miscellaneous work needed. It's time I work on my stuff.

So within the next week I'm going to get started on this clunker. It's been siting here and it hasn't done it by itself. 


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[Fugawee]

Very Nice Centerpiece for the Table.
I have an I/H Sportster Engine that I've wanted to put on Ours for years.
Higher Authorities here will have no part of it.

[72fl]

I have a buddy that was Building Star Racing Case's and another buddy doing their heads. Not sure if both are still involved or not.

[Wookie3011]

Well they definitely look beautiful! Not enough time in a day that's for sure. I'm slowly putting together another 124" for a buddy also. It's twice as hard to work on bikes in the riding season and fishing season. Currently waiting on him to send off his cases. Super mild build of once used parts. I'm also going to be swapping in those CR650 cams but have to get around 11.5-11.7 comp. It's going to require a piston change. Currently the plan is to help my buddy out by handing him my old pistons and cylinders, buying a new set to get there. He has 7 bikes so he's in no hurry.

[Ohio HD]

I've spent much of today unboxing parts, sorting them as they'll be needed and looking for parts I've misplaced. 

I wanted to show the windage / scraper plate that S&S supplies for their Twin Cam cases. I like the idea of this existing in the case as it helps channel oil riding on and being thrown from the flywheel to a tiny sump below the plate. Then the oil goes to the scavenge side of the pump as is the same with the HD Twin Cam cases. Keeping the flywheels dry and away from puddled oil helps with making power.
 

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[cheech]

You have all your parts? Or anything still yet to be ordered?

[Ohio HD]

For the motor I have everything, for the bike I'm still waiting on a few things.

[Ohio HD]

It's always something. I had checked the Timken and play with a dummy shaft in the case several months ago. The end play was exactly 0.0016". Today pressing the bearings on the crank, the case rolls on the bearing, but does not freewheel. I also get zero end play. I suspect that the races may not be pressed all the way into the left case against the bearing race spacer.

The only way I can be 100% sure they're all the way against the spacer is to place the left case in a press. I won't do that without using the Jim's USA 2246 Timken bearing race installer. A chunk of change, but it is what it is. No point in going cheap now.

https://www.jimsusa.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/2246-IS.pdf

I have some bearing race tools for the LM67010 races. But they're aluminum and I have to cobble up a fixture on each side to press the races in my hydraulic press. I normally freeze the races, and lightly warm the left case with a propane torch, and they almost fall in. Since these are in there already and I just want to insure they're in against the spacer, I'll get the right tool.

[SP33DY]

It's always something. I had checked the Timken and play with a dummy shaft in the case several months ago. The end play was exactly 0.0016". Today pressing the bearings on the crank, the case rolls on the bearing, but does not freewheel. I also get zero end play.

It's common for the timkens to lose end play between what they show on a slip fit dummy shaft and after being pressed onto a sprocket shaft. I always shoot for .003" end play on a dummy shaft to get very close to .001" pressed.

When the timkens are pressed on the sprocket shaft, they are actually getting their inner races expanded by a few tenths (.0001") and the outer races are getting squeezed by a few tenths when they are pressed into the case. That tightens up the end play.

Another thing that I do is try to put a .001" feeler gauge between the outer races and the spacer. If it goes in, the races aren't completely seated.

[Ohio HD]

It's common for the timkens to lose end play between what they show on a slip fit dummy shaft and after being pressed onto a sprocket shaft. I always shoot for .003" end play on a dummy shaft to get very close to .001" pressed.

When the timkens are pressed on the sprocket shaft, they are actually getting their inner races expanded by a few tenths (.0001") and the outer races are getting squeezed by a few tenths when they are pressed into the case. That tightens up the end play.

Another thing that I do is try to put a .001" feeler gauge between the outer races and the spacer. If it goes in, the races aren't completely seated.

I agree, I've usually seen 0.0005" loss from the tool to the actual crank measurement. In this case it appears that more was lost.

That's a good suggestion about seeing if a feeler gauge will go under the race. I probably should have replaced the shim with a thicker one from the get go. I was hoping I'd see 0.001" from the 0.0016" I had seen with the tool. I'll press it apart this afternoon and look at the races, then try a thicker shim.