124" Project Storm Breaker

[Ohio HD]

OK, so the thinnest feeler gauge I have is 0.002". I couldn't get that under the two races anywhere, so I imagine that's a safe bet that the races are seated against the shim in the case. The shim that was in there is 0.1060" thick. That falls into the category of the 9127 shim range of .1055 in. - .1065 in.

Since I have zero end-play with that shim that's in there, measuring 0.1060", but can roll the case. I think I'll try the 9128 shim measuring 0.1076. That adds 0.0016" to what I have now. I should see somewhere between 0.0010 and 0.0020 end-play, probably closer to 0.0010. If not, one size larger next. The clearance should open up anyway when the motor gets to operating temperature. 


FYI here's the HD part numbers for the shims if anyone needs them.

You cannot see attachments on this board.

 

[SP33DY]

OK, so the thinnest feeler gauge I have is 0.002". I couldn't get that under the two races anywhere, so I imagine that's a safe bet that the races are seated against the shim in the case. The shim that was in there is 0.1060" thick. That falls into the category of the 9127 shim range of .1055 in. - .1065 in.

Since I have zero end-play with that shim that's in there, measuring 0.1060", but can roll the case. I think I'll try the 9128 shim measuring 0.1076. That adds 0.0016" to what I have now.

That should get you there. Due to the taper of the timken bearings, the end play changes a little bit more than just the thickness differences between the shims that you are changing. I'm no math whiz, but it's a trigonometric ratio.

I keep a big bag with almost every size shim sorted into smaller bags by size. I do a lot of timken conversions here. You would think that they would all use the same size shim but they don't. Eastern MC Parts has all the shims.

[Ohio HD]

Well, the 9129 shim is next, it measured out at 0.1092. I see only about 0.0005 to 0.0007 end play. It's hard to hold everything motionless and get a good measure that small. But it's less than 0.0010 end-play. I'm using an SPI indictor that reads in 0.0001 increments. 

At least I have a good process for pressing the flywheels out. I learned several years back to use wood construction shims under the flywheel. Then just pull one out each side as the flywheel comes out. That way if the flywheel were to drop it would only drop about 0.030 to 0.040 and on soft wood.


You cannot see attachments on this board.

You cannot see attachments on this board.You cannot see attachments on this board.

[SP33DY]

I use a bearing heater to expand the inner race of the timken, and it drops right on. Then I give it a squeeze with the S&S timken bearing installer tool. Before I got an electric bearing heater, I used a hot plate to boil a pot of water with a big steel funnel on top. Just set the bearing on the funnel and when the water hit a rolling boil the bearing was ready to drop on. It was a slow but effective poor man's bearing heater.

[Ohio HD]

Well that's clever.   

Yeah you wouldn't need much expansion of the inner bearing race. 

[Ohio HD]

So this is how guys like me who slept through advanced mathematics classes copes.... 

You get good at using CAD / CAM software and let it make the calculations for you. So being at zero end-play, and then adding a 0.0016" thicker spacer, I should then see 0.0001 clearance from the bearing rollers to the bearing outer race. Then if I add the next size shim I have that's also 0.0016 thicker (I just now know that), I should see 0.0005 from the bearing roller to the outer bearing race. I bet the next shim change will do the trick. I should see 0.0016" end-play.

If it doesn't I'll have to order some thicker shims.


You cannot see attachments on this board.

[Coyote]

Another calculator coming.   

[Ohio HD]

I just have to modify the intake manifold width calculator.   

[FSG]

the man himself ...... 

[kd]

Another calculator coming. 

I just have to modify the intake manifold width calculator.   

 

[Ohio HD]

the man himself ...... 

Pythagoras?

[turboprop]

Well, the 9129 shim is next, it measured out at 0.1092. I see only about 0.0005 to 0.0007 end play. It's hard to hold everything motionless and get a good measure that small. But it's less than 0.0010 end-play. I'm using an SPI indictor that reads in 0.0001 increments.

Have you considered welding a tab on the side of the bearing press tool? Makes for a very precise and clean setup to measure end play.

[Ohio HD]

Well, the 9129 shim is next, it measured out at 0.1092. I see only about 0.0005 to 0.0007 end play. It's hard to hold everything motionless and get a good measure that small. But it's less than 0.0010 end-play. I'm using an SPI indictor that reads in 0.0001 increments.

Have you considered welding a tab on the side of the bearing press tool? Makes for a very precise and clean setup to measure end play.

That was my first plan. Then I ran across these universal brackets on the Jegs web site. They just clamp onto a cylindrical shape. I drilled a mounting hole for the indicator and I have it.


Allstar Performance Universal Bracket


You cannot see attachments on this board.

You cannot see attachments on this board.

You cannot see attachments on this board.

[Ohio HD]

I'm waiting on spacers that should arrive tomorrow. The thickest I have isn't enough.

In the mean time, I created a calculation sheet to give the distance from the bearing to the race change, based on adding or removing thickness from an existing spacer that's installed in the Timken setup. I need to test it before we add it to the HTT Design Tools Section.

Thanks @SP33DY for making me think about the distance that the shim moves the bearing from the race.


You cannot see attachments on this board.

[Ohio HD]

When UPS arrived I went through all of the spacers I ordered and measured each one and marked the envelope each came in with the actual size. Interestingly a 9129 spacer I ordered measured 0.1105, the 9129 I tried yesterday measures 0.1092, and that spacer gave me about 0.0006 end play. So the difference in the two is 0.0013. I input that amount into the calculator, and that suggests I would get an additional 0.0003 in end play. So 0.0003 + 0.0006 (that I have now) = 0.0009. I should see just at 0.0010" end play. I tried the new 9129 spacer, and I measure end play at 0.0014. End play is great where it is now. The calculator and "my error potential" in measuring end play tolerance checks pretty close. With this indictor reading in 0.0001 increments, it's easy to bounce the needle a bit.

You cannot see attachments on this board.

[Ohio HD]

I'll step backwards a minute here and speak to the good, the bad, and the ugly of getting my transmission reworked. Long post, a lot to tell.

What started out as a three week in house process became a three month process. Not that Liberty's Gears didn't wish to work on what I sent in, rather they became the victim (as was I) of an accident that they unfortunately created. The guy that I was speaking with and who would do the disassembly and assembly work was going to be out of the office just after my transmission arrived there. No issue for me, another week or even two isn't going to matter to me. But when he returned to work, he found out that someone else had started the disassembly on my Grudge Box. When pressing three gears off the countershaft, they broke the countershaft. Doesn't seem like a huge issue, just call Baker who is only an hour away from them and get a new shaft.

Here's when it gets interesting. Baker no longer supplies that countershaft, the transmission is now only four years old. They changed some of the internal transmission parts, and you can only buy a service kit that consists of a new gear set. Well, then Liberty's tried looking for a countershaft within the motorcycle community that they know. Nada, none to be had. They even called Mark at R&D motorsports, he didn't have one either. He did tell them that he's broken that shaft before removing gears. Says they're way to hard and are brittle. I spoke with Mark at the beginning of the year, he told me he was about to stop taking in used Grudge Boxes to work on. He told me then he can't get parts for them. He's a Baker dealer. He said he would take mine in because it was new and never had been installed. But he was about eighteen weeks out on work, so I decided to try other places.

Anyway, back to Liberty's gears, they can't get a countershaft, not their fault at that. But they're a custom transmission builder for professional drag racers. They also build six speeds for Pro Stock motorcycles. So they said, we'll make you a shaft. OK, good with me, have at it. Well, then the waiting starts. They first have to make design drawings, they have an in house designer and CAD / CAM person that has to reverse engineer the shaft. Then they have to run it through several processes to manufacture the shaft. Then heat treat. Then back to CNC grinders to finish size the shaft journals.

In the mean time they did process my transmission parts, magnaflux, annealing, cryo treatment, thermal stabilization, shot peened and micro polish. They actually had to perform the annealing and cryo treatment twice. They said the gears were so hard that they didn't bring down the Rockwell range enough. It took a second run of the parts to get them where they wanted them to be. They may be wider than HD gears, but they're also harder, not a great thing to have.

So today I finally got the transmission back. It looks good. It does turn (spin) easier than when I sent it out. It took some effort to spin it in gear before. It almost free wheels now. It does hand shift a little easier as well.

So what I learned from all of this. Before spending a lot on a Grudge Box (I bought mine on Black Friday so it was less than 50% off) you may be better served to buy a brand new six speed from HD, they're in the $1,000 range. If you're savvy you can get them for less. Then send it to your business of choice to back cut, process the gears and shafts as I mentioned above, and you'll be way ahead money wise, and more than likely performance wise. And you can get parts for the HD transmission. I was told by Liberty's Gears that they have seen the Grudge Box strip gears at the drag strip. So it does happen. Keep in mind unless you're building a high powered bike, and plan to run it very hard, most of that isn't even needed, but does add to the efficiency of the operation.

I don't know if Liberty's back cuts HD transmissions, they no doubt know how to do it. Two that come to mind that can do it with their eyes shut is Mark at R&D Motorsports in Clearwater, FL. He's also a really nice guy to talk to on the phone. Doesn't rush you, answers your questions, etc. As well Andy Simon Sr. of Simon Motorsports in Salisbury, NC. can do the work in house. I know there are a few others, but don't really know their capability so I won't mention them.

Would I send another transmission to Liberty's Gears? I probably would. They know me, as well as I know them now. What happened is just what happens sometimes when working on mechanical parts. I do know they made three countershafts, so they have two more if anyone ever needs one.

They also spoke to me about trying to get the owner interested in making an HD six speed in house. They would design it to have multiple gear ratios available, so they would make a straight cut transmission like the Grudge Box. At this point he doesn't know if that'll ever happen or not.


You cannot see attachments on this board.

You cannot see attachments on this board.

You cannot see attachments on this board.

You cannot see attachments on this board.

You cannot see attachments on this board.

[Ohio HD]

You cannot see attachments on this board.

You cannot see attachments on this board.

You cannot see attachments on this board.

[hrdtail78]

So what I learned from all of this. Before spending a lot on a Grudge Box (I bought mine on Black Friday so it was less than 50% off) you may be better served to buy a brand new six speed from HD, they're in the $1,000 range. If you're savvy you can get them for less. Then send it to your business of choice to back cut, process the gears and shafts as I mentioned above, and you'll be way ahead money wise, and more than likely performance wise. And you can get parts for the HD transmission. I was told by Liberty's Gears that they have seen the Grudge Box strip gears at the drag strip. So it does happen. Keep in mind unless you're building a high powered bike, and plan to run it very hard, most of that isn't even needed, but does add to the efficiency of the operation.

Best advice on dealing with the HD 6 speed.  Annealed and back cut at least is what I recommend for the street. 

[Ohio HD]

Best advice on dealing with the HD 6 speed.  Annealed and back cut at least is what I recommend for the street. 

Yeah, I wish I had known more when I ordered the Grudge Box four years ago, and it's been on the shelf waiting to be used since then. On a positive note I did only pay a relatively small amount for it due to the Black Friday sales Baker used to run, and I think this gear box is now a safe bet, I hope.

It was you that made me start to think about preventive work to help insure I don't crunch this gear box. I'm glad that you brought up the subject. Next time, it'll be an HD six speed sent out for upgrades.

[Ohio HD]

Finally I can get to some measurements. Deck height for both front and rear cylinders are +0.030". This is measured without a base gasket. I prefer to use one 0.020" SLS base gasket than stacking a couple. I know it's commonly done, but to me it just adds one more possibility for a leak down the road. That leaves me at +0.010" deck height, and I'll use 0.040" Cometic MLS head gaskets. That'll give me 0.030" quench.

This was another reason I wanted to use Carrillo 7.660" rods that were unobtanium all last year. For some reason DH makes theirs at 7.670". I guess I should have ordered the 5.013" tall S&S cylinders, I used the 5.004" tall S&S cylinders, which would have fit with the Carrillo 7.660" rods. In the future I'll use the 5.013" tall cylinders. It's easier to shorten them than it is to lengthen them.

You cannot see attachments on this board.

You cannot see attachments on this board.

You cannot see attachments on this board.

You cannot see attachments on this board.

[kd]

I expect Cometic  an and would make .030 SLS base gaskets as it will be in the range of their sheet stock.  They may be a little stiff for compression with the low head / cylinder torque spec.

[Ohio HD]

I do plan to call them tomorrow. I agree, I suspect they have a steel sheet that's 0.010" thicker. That would be the C9739, that's 0.020" with a thicker center. I may have to buy a few, we'll see.

[Ohio HD]

@kd, they do have steel the correct thickness, she said 0.004" rubber on each side and the steel shim is 0.022", basically a standard SLS with +0.010" shim thickness. The lead time is one week to make, so that's not bad at all. I could have bought one pair, but decided on two pair to insure I'm covered. 

[kd]

@kd, they do have steel the correct thickness, she said 0.004" rubber on each side and the steel shim is 0.022", basically a standard SLS with +0.010" shim thickness. The lead time is one week to make, so that's not bad at all. I could have bought one pair, but decided on two pair to insure I'm covered. 

The rubber coating is bonus.  One thing I know about Cometic is they have a handle on compressed thickness when they tell you. The thinner stock is nice too.

I hope this doesn't jinx you but I have found a sure way to not need those spare gaskets is to have them bought and paid for "just in case".  Best label them before you put them into storage. 

[Ohio HD]

To me, two is always one. Unless it's a deadly expensive item. I ordered two pair so that I know I have what I need.