Adding timing to 96"

[mike 120]

Has anyone added ignition timing to SERT map for SE A/C and race exhaust 96" map? Stock heads, cams etc, if so were the results positive?
Thanks
Mike

[Eleft36]

Not with a sert, with TMax/AT.

Added from and including idle to 3400. and remove some after 3400

Idles smoother and quieter and runs nice all the way up. also went to 14 on AFRs

Al

[mike 120]

Thanks, I'm going to give it a shot, going to add a few degrees across the range, not sure if stage 1 adds fuel or not, but it should being it is for the SE filter and pipes.
Mike

[mayor]

Not with a sert, with TMax/AT.

Added from and including idle to 3400. and remove some after 3400

Idles smoother and quieter and runs nice all the way up. also went to 14 on AFRs

Al

I've been playing with the map for my brother's 96", so I'm curious:   did you adjust the base map or per individual rpm map?  what base map# did you start with? and why pull timing out after 3400?  

here's the base timing (map523):


here's what I'm thinking:


I'm new to T-max, so I'm looking for some advice whether I'm on the right track.  

mayor

edited to post new modified timing graph that advances lower rpm's a little more (modeling after curve 1 of the SE adjustable carb ignition map)

[redmtrckl]

From what I have observed, tuners are sometimes adding 4 to 8 degrees pretty much across the board on stock maps with the Stage I upgrade. This added timing seems to help with the heat problem as well as performance.

On my 07 with the Tmax, I run 18 degrees advance at idle speed and a linear curve up to max 29deg all in by 3000 rpm, 13.5 afr.
Fatcat exh, big sucker and tw54 cams.

[mayor]

blk, would you mind sending me your map to look at? 

[axtell]

You need to look @ the timing at each throttle position..it is much different than the curve you show....I think you will be surprised..Ron

[05FLHTC]

Mike,

I looked for but could not find a post from BlackHills Ken about adding timing to the 96" stock motor that helped a great deal with reducing heat & helping performance.

Maybe he or someone else that recalls that post will see this & reply...

[Don D]

The Blackhills Ken post was related to a stock 96" with Delphi ECU and factory program. This Tmax is a different animal.

[redmtrckl]

blk, would you mind sending me your map to look at? 

I can after I get home from work.

[05FLHTC]

Has anyone added ignition timing to SERT map for SE A/C and race exhaust 96" map? Stock heads, cams etc, if so were the results positive?
Thanks
Mike

[Don D]

I think he incremented the whole map up at least 4 maybe 6 if I recall and reported added power, torque and less heat.

[mayor]

sorry Mike, kinda hi-jacked your post.  Looking for the same info though  (sorta).  Can you post the base timing map that the SERT starts out with in the 96"? 


'05, I think the post that Ken did was on the old MSN site.  I think it was in the dyno section over there.  I'm pretty sure Don is right that the bike "liked" a considerable amount of timing being added. 

You need to look @ the timing at each throttle position..it is much different than the curve you show....I think you will be surprised..Ron

yea, I looked at the individual rpm maps after my changes, and didn't think they looked too aggressive (with the exception of maybe 4096 rpm).  In fact, I thought of increasing timing at idle even more.  Here's after the base map changes:

based on info that BlackhillsKen, Sonny, and '05 posted on the "timing is everything" thread, I was thinking that I could increase the light throttle idle timing another 5-6 degrees? 

blk, I'll pm you my e-mail addy...thanks. 

[05FLHTC]

Mayor,

Just for my understanding, that map you posted adds timing to the ECM so the stock map plus those numbers = total?

[Don D]

The stock ECM is removed and replaced with a T-Max which was my point in the previous post. The T-Max is throttle position and motor speed based timing, the Delphi works with MAP pressure and engine speed.
To see the stock 96" map you would need the TTS to download it out of the stock ECM

[mayor]

Mayor,

Just for my understanding, that map you posted adds timing to the ECM so the stock map plus those numbers = total?

well I'm new to the program, but I don't think.  notice on the main map the timing is set at 10 degrees at around 1k (after my changes), and WOT is 10 degrees on the individual 1024 chart.  So I am reading the idle timing to be at 15-18 degrees (the TPS typically read around 10 degrees at idle). 

[05FLHTC]

30 degrees works well at idle, much smoother & cooler.

Take a look at some of the maps we have posted, specifically the ones Sonny posted from SE canned maps. Should provide you a good place to start from. Then time, more time & trials...

[mayor]

30 degrees works well at idle, much smoother & cooler.

Take a look at some of the maps we have posted, specifically the ones Sonny posted from SE canned maps. Should provide you a good place to start from. Then time, more time & trials...

yep, have a copy of the SE adjustable curve 1 (stock bikes) on my desk for reference.  Seems the T-max is pretty conservative compared to that chart.  Can anyone think of a situation where the throttle would be at WOT at 1k?  was thinking about advancing the main chart at lower rpm's, instead of the individual rpm ranges. 

[05FLHTC]

Mayor,

That WOT areas of the timing maps at zero & 500 rpm positions have some influence the cranking timing IME with the DTT & the SERT race ignition tuners. Maybe no biggie at 1000 rpm.

[Don D]

Considering we are not tuning for emmissions the best idle, if at 30 is fine but I tend to run about 20 there using the DTT on my own bike. You can create a dip in the map to prevent off idle pinging when heavily loaded / high compression/ high gears/ lower rpm range.

[JimB]

On a PCIII map.... is +1 deg advancing the timing or is +1 retarding the timing ?

My map is all 0's so Im running whatever the stock ECM + the PCIII is

Just something to play with when I have time on the dyno

[Don D]

It has been a long time since I have played with the PC but from what I remember the numbers are percentages only and don't correlate to degrees directly. Then there is the base map in the ECU which is a mystery so applying additions or subtractions is a bit of guesswork, of course the dyno can help especially with WOT. You will find at elevation the timing makes a BIG difference, adding that is.

[mike 120]

I'm starting with map 176AE104-A1, going to add 5 degrees across the board.
I do remember a post about these 96" bikes responding well to this, but can't seem to find it, it probably was on the old HTT.
Mike

[mayor]

I'm starting with map 176AE104-A1, going to add 5 degrees across the board.

Mike do you have the ability to post what the base map looks like?

[Don D]

Careful some of the off road maps are well equipped from the beginning.
Might want to email BlackHills Ken for details of his results
blackhills@optonline.net

[redmtrckl]

I'm starting with map 176AE104-A1, going to add 5 degrees across the board.
I do remember a post about these 96" bikes responding well to this, but can't seem to find it, it probably was on the old HTT.
Mike

I believe that may have been Mike Roland. I seem to recall him saying they had added as much as 8 to 10 degrees in places to get optimum tune.

[Don D]

Yes he did this also

[mike 120]

Mayor,I will give it a shot but it won't be until tomorrow evening.

Mike

[mayor]

cool, let me know if you need help posting it. 

[05FLHTC]

Might I suggest moving this entire thread or at least just the timing table & a few details to our "Timing is everything" post...

[redmtrckl]

Screen shot of my Tmax timing curve on the 96"

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[redmtrckl]

Timing vs TPS at idle


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[redmtrckl]

Timing all in by 3000rpm ----max 28deg

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[Don D]

Doesn't T-Max give a 2D view of all the throttle and rpm data points? Same as DTT and SERT and TTS

[Eleft36]

I'd like to post my timing curve but can't figure out how to upload the screen shot.

Al

[redmtrckl]

Doesn't T-Max give a 2D view of all the throttle and rpm data points? Same as DTT and SERT and TTS

Yep, all 1984 of them

[mayor]

Doesn't T-Max give a 2D view of all the throttle and rpm data points? Same as DTT and SERT and TTS

don, if you mean the 3d maps like you've posted from DTT..no, not that I've found yet.  It's all based on individual rpm ranges based which off set of off the main map. 

[mayor]

Might I suggest moving this entire thread or at least just the timing table & a few details to our "Timing is everything" post...

I think it should probably be moved to the AFR & tuning section at the very least....that's if Mike 120 has no objections.  

[Don D]

Doesn't T-Max give a 2D view of all the throttle and rpm data points? Same as DTT and SERT and TTS

Yep, all 1984 of them

LOL
That's roo much homework to convert those to spreadsheet then graph

[mike 120]

No objection here, probably should have been posted there from the start.
Mike

[Eleft36]

I'd like to post my timing curve but can't figure out how to upload the screen shot.

Al

I generally convert my screen shots from bmp to jpg and host them on photobucket.  If need be, you can send me your screen shot and I'll post it for you. 

I e-mailed you, the mail feature has no way to attach.

Al

[redmtrckl]

Doesn't T-Max give a 2D view of all the throttle and rpm data points? Same as DTT and SERT and TTS

Yep, all 1984 of them

LOL
That's roo much homework to convert those to spreadsheet then graph

Yeah but it would be neat to see in a 3D graph as I can understand the visual better--I think?

[mayor]

I e-mailed you, the mail feature has no way to attach.
Al

here's Al's '07 Softail Custom base timing map:

[05FLHTC]

Wow pretty big difference when you compare that to the SE timing maps that we have listed in the timing post as well as the canned timing maps that I have looked in the SE race tuner for carbed bikes.

Timing is everything maybe not???

[Don D]

It sure is more important than some tuners would like the public to know.

Regarding 2d and 3d space. The visuals for the Tmax are 2d and when combined there is a new virtual axis formed to complete a 3d view. Much like surveying data and USGS maps

[mayor]

I saw the same thing '05.  I was kinda shocked at the base timing maps of the T-max when I first looked at them (but keep in mind I'm ignitionally challenged).  The surprising thing to me about the T-max is the relatively low idle advance.  You can see in Al's and blkmtrckl's maps where they corrected this.  The other thing I noticed was the base maps limit the low tps cruise timing to only a small amount of advance over the wot of the same range (less than 5 degrees on average). 

you fellows that modified (advanced) your lower rpm timing.....are you getting any popping in the pipes at decel?   My brother is complaining of that in his 96" running the T-max base map timing.  I figured advancing the timing in that area should help. 

[ederdelyi]

>>Timing is everything maybe not???<<

MBT   Remember that best timing for performance and emissions are not the same. OEM maps that are EPA compliant will have a lot more retard and conservative slopes to meet emissions criteria. Even the "off-road" maps will be conservative (CYA factor) as almost any generic map whether fuel or ignition will likely be by necessity ... generic stuff will always be a "best guess"  or minimum compromise based on nominal component tolerances and operating conditions. Change any of the parameters that were in use for the original mapping and that map is no longer "optimum".

For power MBT is where you want to be ... and it can be a moving target :>)

[05FLHTC]

Bingo Mayor!

The reason why the vacuum manifold pressure is so relevant & why I had so many issues with the DTT map that did NOT start reading the manifold pressure until the motor was well into the normal cruise operating range.

Unlike the SE race tuner ignition module that allows you to enter timing numbers that only have the primary function to increase the ignition timing when during deceleration to burn up the fuel that was supplied into the combustion chamber while under a load.

[ederdelyi]

Ever heard of a "coasting enrichner" circuit? Some carbs have them (CVK40 used on Kawi KLR650 for example) that add fuel at high manifold pressure (decel) to eliminate exhaust "rice crispies". The more open the exhaust, the more likely that it will have the "rice crispies" at some point during decel. It takes place in the pipe, not in the cylinder and has no downside other than annoyance to some.

The most common "fix" with EFI is to add a little fuel in the high vacuum/low TPS map cells to reduce the tendancy for the pipe to ignite the air/fuel vapor in the pipe. Listen to a race car with open exhaust on decel ... think it's a concern for the tuner? :>) Sometimes a little tweak on timing in these areas can help as well, but don't get too "tricky", it could backfire on ya (pun intended).

[05FLHTC]

Ed just conversing here & please do not take this as being argumentative...this is just recent experience, here are the differences between where I was running with the DTT map vs where I am now with the SE race tuner. I know Max is not sold & maybe I have created a mountain out of a molehill, but my exhaust pipe is running cleaner from this timing change & in my feeble mind it makes me think that everything else must also be running cleaner as well...


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[ederdelyi]

No need to argue ... whatever works. My philosphy is and always will be that one must give the engine what it wants to be "happy". The SE Race Tuner for carb bikes is a good ignition as are the DTT units. I've used both with great success, I just wish the SE unit would work with the earlier non-serial buss models.

I don't bash products or vendors ... just don't think it's the right thing to do as the problem could be nothing more than my perception or lack of understanding/expertise to make it work as intended.

[05FLHTC]

Touche' ED

I appreciate your feedback...

[mayor]

The more open the exhaust, the more likely that it will have the "rice crispies" at some point during decel. It takes place in the pipe, not in the cylinder and has no downside other than annoyance to some.

The most common "fix" with EFI is to add a little fuel in the high vacuum/low TPS map cells to reduce the tendancy for the pipe to ignite the air/fuel vapor in the pipe. Listen to a race car with open exhaust on decel ... think it's a concern for the tuner? :>) Sometimes a little tweak on timing in these areas can help as well, but don't get too "tricky", it could backfire on ya (pun intended).

thanks Ed.  I suspected his pipes were part of the problem (V&H big shots).  I'm running a more baffled muffler (ST IDS) and I'm getting only a small amount of poping on rare occasion.  I'm going to see if tweaking the timing a touch quites him down.  His issue is he works second shift and his neighbors do not.    I guess his bike has a habit of announcing his arrival when he pulls in to his house late at night.  

[Don D]

Remember old cars had vacuum advance, and pre-emissions this was full manifold vacuum and post emissions this got changed to ported spark then later yet no vacuum advance until it was switched on by a solenoid valve. The crude predecessors to ECU controlled spark and emission schemes. The late 60's muscle cars had less vacuum advance and it dropped out a lot sooner than the stock counterparts. Full vacuum advance at idle produced poor HC and CO levels which initiated the changes. High overlap cams worked the same way on HC levels.
Notice in the day the very high compression motors had no vacuum advance. Of course they had erratic vacuum at low speeds due to high overlap cams that would have caused some very undesirable low speed running manors that is if these cars were even operated there and a vacuum advance was used.
IE L-88 Corvette 427, a dummy vacuum can

[Admiral Akbar]

I know Max is not sold & maybe I have created a mountain out of a molehill, but my exhaust pipe is running cleaner from this timing change & in my feeble mind it makes me think that everything else must also be running cleaner as well...

Hey if you are happy, I'm happy.. If I want my pipes cleaned I go find the ol' lady..    In the mean time I'll live with that carbon layer that acts as a good thermal barrier..

Max

[05FLHTC]

Hey if you are happy, I'm happy.. If I want my pipes cleaned I go find the ol' lady..    In the mean time I'll live with that carbon layer that acts as a good thermal barrier..

Max

I hope she does not visit this site...or you might end up doing a load by hand

[Admiral Akbar]

I hope she does not visit this site...or you might end up doing a load by hand

Max