Question for Craig, again

[04customking]

Hey Craig, with this Power Arc ignition what do you set your timing at and how do you do it? Do you just time it by the procedure they give and leave it like that? When I do that, it seems like I have to advance it more than a little to make it run good. I'm still having a hell of a time starting this thing cold. One day I think I have it, and do the same thing the next day and I can't get it going in forty kicks. I have to do something with it. It seems to cough through the carb while I'm kicking quite often. Is that a clue? Runs pretty darn good when it finally does start. I'm getting too old for this crap. Thanks for any advice, Jim

[CraigArizona85248]

Jim,

I time using the 35* BTDC method that PowerArc describes in their instructions.  Basically, I set the 35* BTDC line in the center of the timing hole in the motor case during the compression stroke of the front cylinder.  Actually I set the mark to the left edge of the window because I'm dual plugged but for single plugs put it in the middle.  Make sure the VOES wire is grounded.  Loosen up the hold down clamp on the Spyke ignition housing and rotate it a ways clockwise.  Then I start rotating it counter-clockwise until the static timing LED lights.  Just to make sure I'm seeing all three trigger pins, I continue rotating counter-clockwise until the LED goes out and then comes on 2 more times.  I do this just as a gut check.  Then I rotate clockwise watching the LED light and go out 3 times (seeing all three trigger pins).  Finally turn the ignition housing counter-clockwise until the LED comes on.  Stop rotating the ignition housing as soon as the LED lights and tighten the clamp so the housing can't move anymore.

Hope that helps.  Oh... and when I get coughing through the carb when I'm kickstarting, that usuaully means it's too lean.

-Craig

EDIT 21-Jan-2011: For the sake of clarity we are talking about the PowerArc CDR ignition module.  This module was sold by PowerArc from ~2000 until ~2008.  The timing recommendations I'm speaking to are directed only towards this ignition.

[PNSHR]

Jim
I am no expert on this and I don`t have the Power Arc (running Mallory). But, my experience is when it backfires (and it does from time to time), it seems like it burns all the gas in the carb and throat, and "empties out". My procedure is then to turn the ignition off, kick twice to "refeed" some fresh gas, and the go again. Usually works. If I just keep on kicking it takes a few more kicks to get it going. AND....I also must comment on a superb finished project.
One question: On mine the brake pedal stands kind of straight up. I see yours is tinted somewhat forward. Does this come with the new brake cylinder for the disk brake or is this something I can use on my stock brake too? (59 hydraulic rear brake).

[04customking]

Thanks Craig, that's how I did it too except for the voes wire. I thought I saw that if you weren't using one that you just leave it off. I grounded it this time and no difference. All I seem to be able to get for plugs locally are the Autolite 85's. I of course need the resistors with the power arc. I put a new set in about 100 miles ago and they burn clean. Front is too white for my liking and the rear is a perfect tan. Those are the second set of those I put in because it didn't seem to start good and didn't know what else to do. It ran ok for awhile until now. Finding it hard to believe that they could be bad but not wanting to kick my brains out, I got a set of Bosch this afternoon that they had in that heat range. Put them in and got it going after about 5 kicks. I do think I have richen it up another jet size to get some color on the front plug. I spared no expense on this bike wanting a bike that started and ran beautifully and here I have a bike I'm afraid to take anywhere. Makes me sick.
   PNSHR, thanks for your input. I agree with you but it seems like a fine line between giving it more gas and then flooding it. The brake pedal should be the same one you have. I bought the backing plate and the pedal off ebay for a hydraulic brake and the had to make brackets to mount the m/c to it and hook it up. Here's a few pics. Hope it helps

[CraigArizona85248]

Jim,

The VOES wire should definitely be grounded if you don't have a VOES installed.  If you don't ground it, the ignition will not advance fully and  you'll get lousy performance.  I think you even mentioned that it seemed like it needed more advance.



There are only a couple of variables between your setup and mine.  1) The cam... you have an Andrews A grind and I have a Crane 296A.  2) Your heads are single plugged and mine are dual plugged.  I don't think the dual plugged heads would make that big a difference.  How about the cam?  Anyone?  I don't have any experience with the Andrews A grind cam.

[blackbob570]

Dual plugs should make a big difference, especially on starting. You have 2 sparks igniting what is in effect a very large combustion chamber. Lots of distance for the gas and the 'flame' to travel. I did dual plugs on a '76 Moto Guzzi Le mans years ago, although it was elect start it would start much quicker, not much cranking required at all.

[Pzokes]

04customking,
I like your master cylinder mount.  It's a little different than some others that I've seen using the late master cylinder.  I'm in the process of fabbing a mount now for my new chopper using the same master cylinder.  I think that the late Harley "take-off" brakes are the only way to go.  The two piston caliper is a little more fussy about having the wheel properly aligned, but I try to do that anyway.  I have a special bracket fabbed to mount the 2000+ front caliper on my springer.  Hopefully I'll be posting some pictures of a "roller" in a few weeks.  I used the 84-99 brakes on one of my other bikes, but I think that the 2000+ brakes look much cleaner and probably stop better.

[PNSHR]

Jim
Really nice setup with the brakes. Maybe it is just me, but my pedal seems to be more straight up. Think I`ll do a weld-modification on it and get it extended at the same time. (sorry for mixing up your "ignition thread" with brake pedal issues). When I put in my Mallory I had my share of grievance  too. Backfiring, running bad etc. Turned out I was timing on the wrong cylinder. AND I had double and double checked  several times. I know the feeling. Don`t want to give idiot advice, but have you gone through the basics? Properly charged battery, good coil with blue spark, intake leak, valves fully closing, Cam aligned etc, etc?

[CraigArizona85248]

Jim,

If you can, put your front cylinder at 35* BTDC, remove the ignition module from the spyke housing and take a photo of the rotor.  I'd like to see what position it is in.  Then post a similar photo with the ignition module installed and timed properly.

I don't think you can time off the wrong cylinder with this electronic module.  It just plain old won't run that way.

-Craig

[04customking]

Craig, here's a shot of the instructions that Perry sent with my ignition. I don't know why it's different than your's but mine doesn't say anything about grounding the voes wire. Read my other post for an update on the bike. I'm too lazy to re-do it over here. The two posts are getting combined. Thanks for your help. Jim

[CraigArizona85248]

Jim,

You'll notice that the wire colors in your instructions are also different then in mine!  LOL  The first time I got one of these ignitions from Perry it had the wire colors described in the instructions I posted.  The second time I got a CDR from Perry, the wires were different and I needed the instructions you have with the different wire colors.  PowerArc made up those instructions to go with that module that they sell to Perry but it looks like they forgot that itty-bitty detail about the VOES wire being grounded.  Next time I talk to Perry, I'll be sure to mention to him to add that little bit of info to the instructions before he sends them out.  I hope that is all it takes to square away your starting issues.  I remember it took me a few weeks or riding my panhead everyday before I got the starting sequence completely figured out.  I can remember a couple of kick fights with it at the gas station after it was hot.  LOL

-Craig

[04customking]

I sure hope it's better from now on too. I'll keep posting on it's progress.

[CraigArizona85248]

Photos look good Jim.  Position of the pins at 35* BTDC looks right and all the pins are in the correct holes in the rotor.  Whats your latest status.  Sounded like things had improved but still needed more improvement.

-Craig

[04customking]

I still can't start the bike with any consistancy. I can kick it over 20 times and only a pop or fart through the carb. I really don't know. I still believe it's the ignition. Some times it fires right up like it should, first or second kick. The next day I can kick for 10 minutes and it seems like there is no spark or very weak spark. Then, another kick might fire it off just like I had forgotten to turn the ignition on and then did it. I have a stock timer but no coil. Maybe I should buy one and replace it all to test it.
Another thing, I think it is running lean when it does run. I have the carb set up exactly like yours but even just holding the throttle steady about 1800 rpm in the garage, it wheezes or backfires slightly out the carb. If I pull the enrichener out it runs good. Some of that is because it's not warmed up enough but even driving down the road it does it to a lesser degree. I'm suspecting the diaphram on the slide assy. is torn and I bought a new one, with a 180 jet too that I am going to put in but that won't do much for the starting. It doesn't seem like this Pan should need that much gas. I just don't know.

[CraigArizona85248]

Jim,

We've probably already covered this but my memory... well... I'm getting older.  Have you pressure tested the intake for leaks?  Leaks in the intake are killers for kickstarting.  Damn.  I wish we didn't live 2000+ miles from each other.  I know we could put our heads together and solve this in short order if we were in the same garage.

-Craig

[poorbiker]

04,
Thought I`d jump in, I had the exact same issue you are having, exact. Went from stock timer to magneto to one of Motorway engineering's Hall effect dist. No diff. Played with timing all over the place, posted about it, changed coil even though I knew better. Double, triple checked wiring. ign. wires, plugs, gaps, intake leaks, cyl. leak down tests, had heads dual plugged, still same issue, checked the timing mark on flywheels by measuring the distance of piston to top of cyl. at 35* btdc, was right on. could not figure it out. Finally I pulled the Pan covers and checked the rockers, I had posted about them also under ratio, they looked ok, I pulled some old rockers out of bin and compared, well so much for looks, they were worn the hell out and someone had reground them, they looked ok though. Bought new rockers and installed, adjusted, played with timing, even though I had dual plugged I was still running single coil dual output, set initial timing at 35* and set static timing per instructions, started right up, let it get fully warm and still 2-3 kicks. rode it for a week and rechecked everything, played with timing and starts was best on my bike with 32* btdc, its a 93" stroker. I also bought a degree wheel, kicks went to 1-2 consistently, for 3-4 months now, hot, cold whatever. 2 pumps in mourning, two prime kicks, ign. on, 1 kick. Hot or warm I cant touch the throttle, just kick away. At one point in all this I installed the entire ign. system from another running motor and same thing, reinstalled back into donor motor, started great. I`m not saying this is your problem, just they sound exact....

[04customking]

Craig, yes I pressure tested the intake just a few weeks ago. I took the carb off tonight and I'm going to make the changes to that. I am going to test the manifold again tomorrow too. Just in case. I just don't know. I can trouble shoot a point ignition system but don't have a clue to this electronic ign. I sent it back to Gary at Power Arc and he said it's fine but I don't see a very good spark in my opinion. Part of my problem is that I'm just fed up with this. I've thrown alot of money at this to eliminate this exact problem and here I am. I did a compression check and they were very close but I thought a little low at around 100psi but  think the cam might have something to do with that.
Poorbiker, thanks for your suggestions. That's interesting. I'm going to have to exhaust all the other alternatives before I pull the heads on this thing. When I put it together I examined all the rockers and they all "looked" good to me. I'm sure yours did too. I just don't see where that can be the problem but who knows. You say they were worn out but looked ok? Can you explain that a little more?
Pzokes, thanks, good idea. I was wondering about that when I did it.

[poorbiker]

04,
I am not sure how rockers were affecting ratio  they were as much as a 1/4 shorter (off the face) than the new rockers and none of them were the same height. I`m guessing they were way above the axis of the shaft thus changing the ratio? I`m not sure but after installing new rockers and doing nothin else I hadnt done before it made the diff. backfire or spitting through carb went away also, the other problem I dont think you mentioned if you had was I had bad kickback, no matter what I did. All that ended with new rockers. If that wasnt it then I have no idea why it started kicking over easier on 1-2 kicks. I tried another carb off of a running bike, changed the cam cause I wanted to, changed intake and added new intake clamps and o-rings, messed with the jetting and tried adding baffles to exhaust. Nothing worked. The only other thing I did was to install the original S&S air cleaner and cover on the super e. Had to be one of the two......I thought same thing, wouldnt the adjustable pushrods just take up the slack on the old rockers, maybe. I`ve put together allot of engines, never had this issue before....

[04customking]

Poorbiker, that's interesting. 1/4" is alot of difference in rockers. I wouldn't think that the pushrods would be able to adjust to that much of a difference. I won't begin to say that can't be my problem, you're living proof that it could be, but I have to look at some other aspects first before I pull the heads, but that might be coming. Thank you for another possibility for me. I'll keep updating whatever I find.
Jim

[04customking]

I got up this morning and figured I'd mess with this some more. Check the basics AGAIN. Pressure tested the intake and absolutely no leaks and I really soaked it down and waited awhile, no bubbles at all. When I first hooked the air to it however, the intake was open slightly and I heard more air than I wanted to or expected to hear from the breather. After rotating the engine to close the valves and did the pressure test, I did another compression test. A few weeks ago I did one and had 98 ft./ 100 rr.. This time I had 100 ft./ 90 rr.. Regardless of the cam, I think that's too low. I squirted oil in and tried again with basically no change. These are KB 8.5:1's. Should be more than 100/90. Maybe the heads do have to come off.

[poorbiker]

04,
When you say pressure test, are you talking about a cyl. leak down test? Or are you somehow testing the intake tract and manifold? If you do a cyl. leak down test and it passes I wouldnt pull the heads, if you get decent comp. test numbers I would look elsewhere. You know it has to be a timing event of some sort. On mine I believed it was always related to a timing event but when I didnt initially find what I thought was the problem, thats when I second guessed myself and started randomly replacing parts, alot of parts, I was pissed and started throwing money at it. It sure sounds like yours is timing related. I have seen shovel motors with one dead cyl.  Carb leaking and over fueling, air intake leaks, exhaust falling off, low comp. on other cyl. start and run on one kick. Some comp. and timer or electronic ign. and flywheel timing mark all set correct and related components in reasonable shape, it should start, consistently.   Your coil is correct ohms for your ign.? Is the coil polarity sensitive? Stupid question already covered I`m sure, but, wiring on coil is correct for the dual or single fire option selected? Sure hope you find answer before doing all I did.

[04customking]

The pressure test I referred to was the intake tract. Just checking for vacuum leaks. I don't have any accurate way of measuring cyl leak down. I can try to get the engine to "sit" at tdc and force air in but then it's just a matter of listening for where the air goes and if it sounds excessive. I have to believe the heads and valves are good. I had Don Sullivan do them completely and from what I hear his work is great. I am confused though about the compression. Little Al says he has 120 ft. and rear in his and mine is all new with 100 or less. Oil in the cyls. didn't improve it so I don't think rings have anything to do with it. Anyone else have compression reading for these pans that I can compare with? Cam duration will effect comp. right? I'm not going to pull the heads until I get the carb back together and try a few more things.

[MBSKEAM]

Cam duration will effect comp. right?

intake valve closing time will,
sooner lets more cyl (air/fuel)  to compress, later means less cyl volume to compress....

interesting on the rockers.....hhmmm

to test them you could measure from the top off the keeper (closed pos)  and then at full lift....
it should be what ever your cam lift is for that brand and style cam....
of make a bench top tester.....

mbskeam

[poorbiker]

Isnt there a calculation for full valve open based on your cam specs and the 1.5 rocker ratio, where the total amount open is concerned. I know of some after market automotive rockers that allow you to set your own ratio, to increase it or decrease it, affecting total cam lift. I would assume anyone doing this to be much smarter than me. Rockers are probably not 04s problem anyway, but, if you can figure when all the timing events are taking place and if they are taking place at the correct time in relation to each other you can eliminate allot of areas to look for the problem. A degree wheel would really help in this, but! Of coarse after all this talk it will probably be a loose jet...........

[04customking]

It's not a jet