rebuilding forks

[04customking]

I need some opinions and advise. The front forks on my 54 seem very harsh. They don't absorb much of the bumps at all. I thought the rigid rear would be the problem but with the pogo that's great. The fronts give almost no dampening it seems. They are the only part of this bike I didn't rebuild when I did the bike. The receipts I got with the bike show them being done before the bike sat for 12 years in his basement. I want to replace everything I think and start with what I know is correct. For one, I don't know what the springs are out of so That might be my only problem but I'm going to do it once and be done. The tubes are 2" over and I think I'm going to keep them. The bushings were done and they do feel very good. So, this pic is the guts the way they came out. These were all replaced but they don't look great by any means so I'm getting new. Is the order correct the way they are in the pic? Are the two springs supposed to be the same? The lower one looks like it might be broken but I  don't know if that's correct or not. Guess I'll see when the new stuff arrives. Any recommendations as to where to buy the parts? Are they all the same manufacturer or is there a difference. If you want to explain the way the oil is supposed to flow through these I would appreciate that too. I don't quite see it yet. As always, thanks for any opinions.

[Pynzo]

I pieced together my frontend with used dampers, and they work fine- don't rush into buying a new set yet, big $ for something that may not be the cause of your troubles.Your problem may be the weight of oil and level in the forks, the springs themselves, or a combination of the two. I use Castrol SAE 30wt and get my gasket kits from VTwin, J&P sells their kit. I traded out my OEM springs for a set of Progressive Suspension springs, and man what a difference! You'll need to make a set of spacers to take up the difference in spring lengths (Progressive springs are shorter than OEM)and the set that comes with the Progressive set are for stock length tubes(are you running 2" spacers with your 2" over tubes now?) I used some black iron pipe that had a slightly bigger O.D. than the tubes I.D., and turned them in a lathe to a slip fit into the tubes, added 4" to the dimension of the suppled spacers(I have 4" over tubes).
Night and day difference in handling, I would never go back to the original setup!
From the pic it looks like your lower spring is short, did any pieces come out of the leg when you pulled it apart?

[04customking]

I've been in the basement again checking things out. I was wrong on the bushings, they were done but not good. I had the seals in the sliders before when I grabbed the tubes and felt for play. I thought the rubber would move with any play that was there. Very wrong. The seals were as hard as a rock and the bushings have about .010"-.015" slop. I just called all the locals that I thought would do this and no one has the tools. So, getting them replaced is on the list somewhere.
Pynzo, I like your Progressive idea so I ordered a set. They're the same ones I bought for my RK. As far as the springs in the dampeners go, they are the same in both legs and no pieces anywhere so I "assume" they are ok. One question for you on the oil. I think I put in 15 wt. in them when I first put it on the road and when it rode so hard I drained it and put in Harley type E which I think is only 5 wt. with no difference in feel. The manual only states Harley Hydra-Glide fork oil with no mention of the weight. Is 30 what that compares to? Seems thick but what do I know. Anyways, thanks for your input.

[Pynzo]

I've got a complete set of fork bushing tools, and can replace yours and ream new ones to size if you need it. Same deal as with Little Al- I work for beer, you supply the beer and bushings. VTwin also has a rebushing service, but how do you know if you get your legs back or some off of an exchange shelf? My '49 parts book doesn't have seperate part #s for the small springs but look to be the same top and bottom, so if all 4 of your springs are the same, I'd leave well enough alone with the dampers and concentrate on the fork springs and oil situation. The gasket kit made by VTwin will have new seals,felts,steel washers, and snap rings- rubber top plug gaskets too, along with the two gaskets needed for the dampers. I used the 30wt as it was closest in viscosity to what I found in a bottle of HD type E fork oil, the type recommended by my manual. The Castrol 30wt sells for about $2 a quart compared to $6 a pint for type E (that's what they were charging the last time I asked for it at the local HD dealership, Lord knows if they even still sell it!). Anybody use anything different with good results?

[04customking]

I've spent a good hour on the computer trying to find tools to buy to do the bushings. No luck. How did you come across them? If I can't come up with a "work around" then I may take you up on your offer. Exactly how would we do that? I thought I read somewhere that "type E" oil was 5 wt. Probably wrong again but it sure is thin.

[Pynzo]

I was the last mechanic to work at what had been HD of Philadelphia(open '67? to '84). The guy who owned it lost his franchise rights in 1984 due to a conflict with the Motor Company over his alleged fraudulent overbilling of warranty repairs(or so I was told by a knowledgeable oldtimer, the owner had a different opinion of what went down). The owner sold me all of the factory tools with the exception of the frame table and jigs. I've got tools that haven't been produced since the '30s. Factory Master Manual also. When he closed his doors in 2001 I took everything that could fit in my garage (he retired, sold the building, and needed it emptied out).
The container of HydraGlide Fork Oil that I used to compare viscositys was produced in 1966 and had been sitting on a shelf at this dealership unopened for 30 years('95 when I found it). It was brown like motor oil and felt like 30wt to me. I've never had trouble with my dampeners using this grade, absorbs bumps well. I don't know if the Type E you bought was the same as what I had found way back when, I've used fork oil supplied by owners of machines I've serviced that seemed like automotive tranny fluid. What's you Type E like?
If you need the work done, I'm in Philadelphia Pa. UPS them to me, I'll do the work and send them back to you. If you like the end result, send me the cost of my favorite Ale ($37 a case). If your close by on the east coast, drop them off, go see the sites of my city(saturdays), and pick them up on the way home. No Problemo- we can work it out.

[04customking]

I envy you being able to acquire all those tools. I'd be in heaven. I am buying the bushings now and I think it makes more sense to ship them to you to do. The bushings themselves aren't cheap and for me to try and do them and ruin them would be pretty stupid. As soon as I get the bushings I'll PM you. Does that work for you? Thanks pynzo.

[Pynzo]

That works for me. The reamer is setup for sizing to OEM tubes- originals were Parkerized, and depending on where your tubes were made(USA or Taiwan), chromed tubes may have a larger O.D. and will be tight in the new bushings. Mic your tubes down where the bushings ride and I'll compare that measurement to the OEM tubes I've got here. I made sure my 4" over tubes were USA made and they worked fine in my new bushings. Can't be sure about Taiwan.

[CraigArizona85248]

Pynzo,

I may have to send you my fork legs too.  I can't find anyone around here who had the bushing tools my fork legs are in dire need of new bushings.  I've noticed what you mentioned about the Tiawanese tubes being tight.  I have a new set of 10" over tubes from Frank's Maintenance and Engineering (Forking by Frank) in Illinois.  I don't want to install them until I have fresh bushings.  Can you install the bushings on a set of shaved legs (no fender tabs and they have been thinned a bit)?

-Craig

[04customking]

OK, I dug out the receipt for my tubes. A search for the part number for the tubes and the seal kit indicate they were bought from Mas Classics. They are still listed under those part numbers but they don't say in the description if they are U.S. made or not. I measured them in the bushing areas several times rotating them around and they are consistant at 1.625"- 1.6255"

[Pynzo]

Craig- as long as they were OEM legs my tools will work, as long as the tops still have the recess for the seals.

04-MAS Classics drop ships from VTwin. I bought my tubes from VTwin in '96, and they were USA made back then, their catalog doesn't say where they come from now. They're listed as 41mm which would be 1.6269", 1.625" would be 1-5/8", a dimension the factory would most likely have used in the late '40s, so clearance should be ok with your tubes.

[04customking]

Sounds good. As soon as I get the bushings I'll PM you. My tubes were bought in '92 so they are probably the same as yours. I just checked my type E fluid and it is very thin. Just like tranny fluid. I have some 15 wt fork oil too and the E is thinner than that. Thanks again. Jim

[Little Al]

Jim,
I say take a ride South, I'll take a ride North and we'll meet somewhere (like maybe Port Jervis) and we'll ride down to Pynzo together. He's helped me so many times and although I sent him some beer I still owe him big time, plus like most of the regulars here, I'd like to meet you guys in person. I know what Pynzo drinks (and you too Jim) so we can get together, knock back a few, do your forks, all in the birthplace of the United States. 

Sounds like a great day to me...

[04customking]

Hi Al, happy Thanksgiving. I have them all boxed up and going to the post office in the morning. I would very much like to do as you say but we will have to wait. We should plan on doing it this summer when we can ride the bikes there. I just got in from a ride around town and it's a bit brisk out there. Looks like rain any minute too. Hope you and everyone else is having a good day.

[JamLazyAss]

Hi Al, happy Thanksgiving. I have them all boxed up and going to the post office in the morning. I would very much like to do as you say but we will have to wait. We should plan on doing it this summer when we can ride the bikes there. I just got in from a ride around town and it's a bit brisk out there. Looks like rain any minute too. Hope you and everyone else is having a good day.

I just read your post and had to laugh about your weather comment.
Only because that's exactly how it looks here too.
So for the heck of it I looked at your profile and see you're just down the Thruway.
I'm in Pennellville, near Syracuse.
Guess it's better than snow. 

[04customking]

Yea, anything is better than snow for me. I hear it's coming next week maybe, like they have a clue. I wasn't home long today and it rained pretty good for awhile. Ate a lot of turkey and went out and bought a new pistol. Sitting here now with a glass of Jack. Life is good. I'll have to look up Pennellville, I've never heard that name.  Jim

[Little Al]

Thanks for the Thanksgiving wishes and the same back to you and your family.

ok, so I know it's colder up there then down here so I'm willing to put it off a few months and maybe then we can make it the 3 of us to go visit Pynzo.

it's still pretty mild here in New York City, 48 right now but I haven't ridden my Pan in a few weeks, been so damn busy with other stuff. Just this morning I went out to start her up for at least a short ride. kicked her over maybe 100 times until i was totally exhausted! silly me, I had taken out the main fuse I wired in after my last ride! I'm resting up a bit, waiting for my leg to recover, and maybe in a little while actually get her started and take that ride...

[04customking]

Have fun, it's 38 here and looking like rain again.

[Little Al]

sorry buddy!

[Pynzo]

Al- come down anytime- the Yankees took Amtrak! (No- I'm still not over the World Series, but Philly ain't salty about it like Boston is-)

[Little Al]

as usual Pynzo, thanks!

I keep promising you and myself that I'm gonna get down to see you and bring you some Brooklyn Ale and share an authentic Philly Cheesesteak. I guess eventually I'll actually get on the bike and head down, hell you're only a bit more then an hour from me! I just been so damn busy...

[Pynzo]

Jim-
Got your legs today- should have them back to you early next week. Nice chrome on these- I will be careful with them. The chroming process is probably the cause of the bushings being undersized- the pickling tank does remove some bronze (I found this out the hard way when I had my first cam cover chromed).

Update- Man, these musta really chattered when you hit the brakes, stock tubes in these shook like crazy, and the reamer and pilot passed through both bushings without touching any part of them!

[Pynzo]

Jim-
As I suspected, just about every trace of bronze had been etched away by the chroming process leaving your bushings just steel shells (upper left corner of first pic). The second pic is of one of your old lowers with the new Gary Bang next to it. The Gary Bang has two ears that notch into the other side of the split, kinda like jigsaw puzzle pieces. I'll have to wait til saturday to finish up the job, and you'll have these back early next week.

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[04customking]

Man you don't waste any time. I didn't think you'd even have them yet. Please don't think you have to hurry on these. Believe it or not, I didn't hear anything hitting bumps. I was very surprised to see how loose they were when I took them apart. Definitely loose. I took your advise and bought the progressive springs and have all the seals and gaskets to reassemble them. I'm getting excited now. I wish spring was here instead of winter.
Jim

[JamLazyAss]

"I wish spring was here instead of winter."