TTS Tuner w/TSII/Wego

[Arrowsmit]

After going thru 3-4 dyno tunes on a PCIII usb, a TMAT, dealer flashes, etc etc my bike is running much better w/the TTS than it ever has before. With just my novice efforts w/a TSII/Wego (& some help from here) every aspect of the engines performance has been dramatically enhanced; greatly improved idle quality, crisper/stronger roll-ons, faster revs, etc. The engine just doesn't seem to 'labor' like it did w/the PCIII & it runs smoother at all RPM's than w/the TMAT. All this & I'm not even finished tuning it yet...

This TTS tuner is the cats meow!!

VicW.

[Blackbaggr]

Good to hear...I just ordered one. Been running the PC III for the last 2 years...fairly satisfied but I know it can run better.

[Sonny S.]

After going thru 3-4 dyno tunes on a PCIII usb, a TMAT, dealer flashes, etc etc my bike is running much better w/the TTS than it ever has before. With just my novice efforts w/a TSII/Wego (& some help from here) every aspect of the engines performance has been dramatically enhanced; greatly improved idle quality, crisper/stronger roll-ons, faster revs, etc. The engine just doesn't seem to 'labor' like it did w/the PCIII & it runs smoother at all RPM's than w/the TMAT. All this & I'm not even finished tuning it yet...

This TTS tuner is the cats meow!!

VicW.

Bout time.... been waiting for a dyno chart   

[FLTRI]

"After going thru 3-4 dyno tunes on a PCIII usb, a TMAT, dealer flashes, etc etc "

Sorry to hear you never got to a good tuner.

With all you spent, including the autotune system, you would assume the bike couldn't run any better.

After the 3-4 PCIII tuning failures (same tuner?) AND the T-max system that is touted to eliminate tuners and dyno runs, you say your bike never ran as good as you tuning it yourself with TTS.

Anyway, glad to hear you finally have your bike running at its best......and all without any tuning experience, special tools, dyno, etc.

Maybe you have a future in tuning?
Bob

[Arrowsmit]

Bob, I know it's not running at it's absolute best, but it certainly is way better than ever before. I don't entertain the idea that I could get it to it's full potential myself, but I do know somebody who can  & I plan to enlist his services ASAP. For now tho, this is/has been a very fun & rewarding experience for me.

BTW, there have been 3 different shops to 'dyno-tune' (I use the term VERY loosely) the bike. All three half azzed tooners seemed satisfied w/their results. I wasn't. That's why I was driven to the TMAT...like so many other places around the country, decent tuners are simply non-existant in my neighborhood. The TMAT was considerably better than any of the PCIII 'toons', but IMHO it has it's own special flukes so I finally decided to try a tuning system that utilizes the stock ECM's speed density capabilies. Thanks in large part to the readily available information from here & other forums, both the TSII/Wego & TTS are easy enuff (for even this novice) to manipulate at a satisfactory level to produce very good results.

VicW.

[waskier01]

I have a TTS Mastertune on one bike and a TSII+/WEGO on another and all I can tell you is, I have a lot to learn.  Learned SO much already, but, HOLY FRIJOLES.....

[FLTRI]

Vic,
With the TTS system if you are willing to spend the time to go through the auto-map routine a few times you can, in fact, get the AFR as close as a tuner. Timing will be a bit more of a challenge as there is no auto-tune for that.
Good job,
Bob

[Arrowsmit]

waskier01, how are you using the collected Wego AFR data, do you have a SERT, PCIII, etc on that bike? Hey, there are some very knowledgeable ppl here who always seem willing to help...if you're having trouble ask questions!! You can do it!


Bob, unfortunately the V-Tune isn't compatible w/my '02. I'm hoping for very similar results using the TSII/Wego tho...I mean the premise is about the same, right? Anyhow, so far I'm very pleased w/the results. I still plan to get a great tune (and dyno-sheet Sonny ) ASAP tho.

VicW.

[Scramjet]

Vic,

It seems we are on about the same track on tuning using the TTS MasterTune.  I also gave up on getting a great tune using the PCIII in the NE Ohio area.  It ran good but not great.  The WOT peak numbers will probably not get much better but the other throttle/RPM ranges seem much better already.  I have done about 4-5 trial runs and the bike is running smoother than ever.

More tuning today to complete a full map at 40 degrees F.

Two questions maybe you could answer...

1. Are you thinking of using the TSII to comfirm AFR values from the TTS bike?  It would be interesting to see how consistant and how accurate the TTS system controls the AFR.  Or maybe a better way to frame this question is "how well do the TSII and the TTS agree on AFR at the O2 sensor location".

2. This is somewhat of a subjective question but here goes; when you self tune with the TTS and you project VE's out to the 100% MAP WOT throttle position.  How accurate is the projection if projected in a linear fashion from rows out and then reality checked going columns down?  Maybe you will only know if you try the TSII on the TTS equipped bike.

B

[Herko]

Scramjet,
Not Vic but I think I can shed some light on question 1:
1. Are you thinking of using the TSII to comfirm AFR values from the TTS bike?

Vic,s bike is a 2002 model ie pre Closed Loop era. He's having to use his portable sniffer to sample AFR's for the entire map.
Absent for him is the luxury of the V-Tune program to assist in the calibration phase of the tune. Not sure but I think he's calibrating (synchronizing) to 13.2 AFR. An MT6 Cal file is in use.

"how well do the TSII and the TTS agree on AFR
The Closed Loop bikes I've tuned show that the OE sensors create an AFR that's within a tenth or two of prescribed when crosschecked with the DJ sniffer.

[Scramjet]

Thanks Herko,

You are up early on a Sunday.  Care to comment on question 2?

B

[Herko]

Care to comment on question 2?

There's no distinct set pattern for the extrapolated (blended) VE's that I've found.
In my case I check the AFRs on the Dyno when in the Open Loop (WOT for example) areas.
But, in other Open Loop areas or unexplored V-Tune areas, I will make VE inputs based mostly on "trends" within the VE table as well as what I've known to work well on other tunes.
Different Bikes/builds have their own personality (VE trends).
Others may have a different process.

While Vic is having to work a lot harder to street-tune his all Open Loop bike, his end result will be a better street-tune in WOT areas. Obviously, this is due to the fact that he's able to "measure" the AFR's in those areas with his portable sniffer.

[Arrowsmit]

Scramjet, I'm not projecting any of the adjustments, just logging data w/TSII/Wego & then using the collected data to make changes to the VE's via TTS. Here are the VE adjustments I've made on the front cyl so far:



Herko did a great job of answering the 1st question. Does this answer #2?

VicW.

[waskier01]

"waskier01, how are you using the collected Wego AFR data, do you have a SERT, PCIII, etc on that bike."
   SERT.  One bike is using stock headpipes and is experiencing some reversion issues.  One has rineharts and is tuning using the TSII+ like a dream.  My '06SG has been converted to closed loop and is running the TTS w/V-Tune.

"I'm hoping for very similar results using the TSII/Wego tho...I mean the premise is about the same, right?"
   The premise is nearly identical.  Set VE's, go for AFR's.  The TTS is definately easier, The TSII+ goes to 100% throttle position. The laptop for the TTS is a PITA, but so is the wires for the TSII+.

"Bob, unfortunately the V-Tune isn't compatible w/my '02."
   Or my '03 Ultra.  but there are probably some people out here that are thinking of a way around that.

[waskier01]

"You are up early on a Sunday."

   West coast, way early.

[Arrowsmit]

BTW, I changed injector size (TTS engine constants tbl) from 4.35 to 4.22 to get more 'headroom' before I ever started tuning. Looks like I got plenty.

VicW.

[waskier01]

Herko, PM sent.

[Arrowsmit]

waskier01, sounds like you gotta good handle on this. I'm still in the learning curve. FWIW, my tuning is on hold for now...we were blessed w/some unusually nice 60* temps this past week, & I got a large part of the VE's calibrated, but winter is back now w/colder temps & I'm not willing to introduce that variable into the mix.

VicW.

[waskier01]

Western Washington gets a couple weeks a year that's really tough cold riding. besides that, just a little rain. 

[Herko]

Herko, PM sent.

Replied.

[ToBeFrank]

Arrowsmit, can you post your 3D graphs for your VE tables after you tuned them with the TS?

[Arrowsmit]

Sure, but bear in mind that I'm not near done w/em yet. Here ya go:





VicW.

[Arrowsmit]

TBF, care to post yours?

VicW.

[Scramjet]

VicW,

The 3D graphs answered my question.  It looks like projecting from 60-80 MAP out to 100 MAP in a linear fashion is not too far off.  Here are my VE 3D tables projected out to 100 MAP:

Edit: crappy 3D maps deleted.

[Arrowsmit]

Scramjet, your graphs didn't come out right. Here's what they look like on my computer:



VicW.

[ToBeFrank]

Sure, but bear in mind that I'm not near done w/em yet. Here ya go:

Vic, your graphs illustrate why I was unhappy with the TS software. The VE surface plot should not be all spiky like that. It indicates the algorithm he used to generate new VEs is purely cell based rather than interpolation along with a smoothing algorithm. The only thing you can do is smooth it by hand, or write you own VE generating software and just use the TS data logs, which is what I did. Unfortunately, I didn't save my spikey maps that I got from the TS, but here are the graphs using my software. The first two are when I was in the process of tuning. You can see that I had got through 30% throttle. The second two are the final VE graphs, which are nice and smooth. The only places I did any hand editing of the VE tables were the outliers where you can't collect data, i.e. low RPM/high TPS and high RPM/low TPS.




[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[ToBeFrank]

Scramjet, your graphs didn't come out right. Here's what they look like on my computer:

They look ok when I open them.

[Arrowsmit]

Wonder why Scramjets graph looks funky on my PC?

Interesting TBF. Could you tell a SOP difference after smoothing your self tune? Would you post the VE graphs after you had it dyno tuned? Did you smooth those VE's too? If so, any felt improvement there?


VicW.

[Scramjet]

VicW,

You are not seeing things.  They look like sh** when printed to PDF.  I can't seem to get the same JPG's that you are getting.

What is the secret?

B

[Arrowsmit]

What is the secret?

No secret. Just save the jpg to a picture hosting site (I use Photobucket, but there are several), then right click on the picture there, copy the address for the img file, & then paste that address in your post here. There are other ways to post pictures but this way uses a minimum of this sites server capacity.

VicW.

[Herko]

Another method:

When graph is up in Tune Mode  Click Alt-Print Screen, Paste in to PowerPoint, Right click, Save Picture As... Select Jpeg, save to wherever...Desktop, My VE ScreenShots folder etc.

[Arrowsmit]

Ooops! I left out how to save the screen shot. Ya gotta do that before uploading to the host site. Thanks Herko!

VicW.

[FLTRI]

Another method:

When graph is up in Tune Mode  Click Alt-Print Screen, Paste in to PowerPoint, Right click, Save Picture As... Select Jpeg, save to wherever...Desktop, My VE ScreenShots folder etc.

John,
Just curious as to what build that VE map was developed for.
Bob

[Arrowsmit]

Hahahahaha

[Scramjet]

Thanks for the suggestions but...

I don't know why it will not work.  I cut and paste into PowerPoint, Word and other documents at work all the time.  The TTS graph and the print screen function just do not want to cooperate.  Works with other software on this computer but not with the MasterTune/show graph window.

The only thing that seems to work is to print to PDF from the graph window.

B

[FLTRI]

Thanks for the suggestions but...

I don't know why it will not work.  I cut and paste into PowerPoint, Word and other documents at work all the time.  The TTS graph and the print screen function just do not want to cooperate.  Works with other software on this computer but not with the MasterTune/show graph window.

The only thing that seems to work is to print to PDF from the graph window.

B

Gotta be something with your computer. You are the first I've heard of that has that problem. A call to Steve Cole may clear it up cause maybe he's run across it.

[Arrowsmit]

Try Ctrl/Prnt Scrn, then open up Paint & use the drop-down menu to paste it there. Save as jpg.

VicW.

[Scramjet]

OK, I think the Rainman has figured it out:

B

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[Arrowsmit]

Yeah!! Nice looking graphs too...but mine's got bigger tits.

VicW.

[Herko]

John,
Just curious as to what build that VE map was developed for.

Just a little horseplay for the screen shot demo.

[Steve Cole]

Sure, but bear in mind that I'm not near done w/em yet. Here ya go:

Vic, your graphs illustrate why I was unhappy with the TS software. The VE surface plot should not be all spiky like that. It indicates the algorithm he used to generate new VEs is purely cell based rather than interpolation along with a smoothing algorithm. The only thing you can do is smooth it by hand, or write you own VE generating software and just use the TS data logs, which is what I did. Unfortunately, I didn't save my spikey maps that I got from the TS, but here are the graphs using my software. The first two are when I was in the process of tuning. You can see that I had got through 30% throttle. The second two are the final VE graphs, which are nice and smooth. The only places I did any hand editing of the VE tables were the outliers where you can't collect data, i.e. low RPM/high TPS and high RPM/low TPS.


I am unsure what your doing but your graphs look nothing like what we get when using V-tune. If anyone would like to see what we get go to calibration AE176-000 and graph the VE tables. That calibration was done completely on the street with V-tune. It was our final test case prior to release of the product. It would appear to me from looking at what's been done that not enough data was gathered to finish a good VE table. Our alogrithms that are used are nothing simple at all and seem to work very well when following the instructions. We recommend that you run the V-tune process more than once and that you do not stop until the corrections shown in V-tune are less than 5 %. This typically takes 2 - 3 runs when using a dyno and 4 - 5 when using it on the street. Just remember that when tuning on the street or a closed coarse you only gather data for the area you rode in and those are the only areas that corrections are made in. If there is no data we make no changes to those areas. Just going in and adding smoothing over the missed areas isn't going to make it a right VE selection, so we chose not to do that.

[Herko]

Hi Steve, not sure you caught this an earlier post...but Vic's bike is a 2002, pre-Closed Loop era bike.

But, for a Close Loop V-Tunable bike, just to clarify, blending  in the VE tables is not recommended per the following from above?
"If there is no data we make no changes to those areas. Just going in and adding smoothing over the missed areas isn't going to make it a right VE selection, so we chose not to do that."

[Herko]

Steve, welcome to the new HTT BTW. Thanks for joining.

[Blackbaggr]

Welcome Steve... I'm new here too but I am on several other forums as well. I recently bought your product. I'm studying the material and will hopefully be installing and tuning soon. Thanks for making a good product (SERT) great (TTS). BTW..mines a 07 FLHTC so I'll be able to take full advantage of all of the features.

[Arrowsmit]

Steve, Welcome to HTT. I'm afraid there has been some misinterpretation here. I started this thread for us guys w/older bikes who are using TSII/Wego to collect AFR data for use w/your TTS tuner; so that we might compare results, swap advice, tips, etc. If it wasn't made clear that V-Tune was not being used or if TTS has in any way been shown in a bad light then I must apologize. That was surely never the intention.  


VicW.

[ToBeFrank]

Sure, but bear in mind that I'm not near done w/em yet. Here ya go:

Vic, your graphs illustrate why I was unhappy with the TS software. The VE surface plot should not be all spiky like that. It indicates the algorithm he used to generate new VEs is purely cell based rather than interpolation along with a smoothing algorithm. The only thing you can do is smooth it by hand, or write you own VE generating software and just use the TS data logs, which is what I did. Unfortunately, I didn't save my spikey maps that I got from the TS, but here are the graphs using my software. The first two are when I was in the process of tuning. You can see that I had got through 30% throttle. The second two are the final VE graphs, which are nice and smooth. The only places I did any hand editing of the VE tables were the outliers where you can't collect data, i.e. low RPM/high TPS and high RPM/low TPS.

I am unsure what your doing but your graphs look nothing like what we get when using V-tune. If anyone would like to see what we get go to calibration AE176-000 and graph the VE tables. That calibration was done completely on the street with V-tune. It was our final test case prior to release of the product. It would appear to me from looking at what's been done that not enough data was gathered to finish a good VE table.

Well since you included my post in your reply I'm assuming you're talking to me. I have no idea how you can infer "that not enough data was gathered to finish a good VE table" from comparing my graph to the AE176 graph. Of course they're going to look different. I have different heads, different cams, different volume, and different exhaust... and none of those are stock. Frankly, I'm amazed you'd even try to make that comparison. Attached is my dyno tuned front cylinder graph. Notice how the shape of the graph is almost the same as my wideband street tuning graph?

Our alogrithms that are used are nothing simple at all and seem to work very well when following the instructions.

I realize you're trying to sell your product, and yes, your software does a good job, but give me a break. What you're doing is simple statistics, it isn't anything new. Heck, the MegaSquirt community was doing this way before you released V-Tune. You don't even have to do the calculating of the new VEs or any smoothing on them because the ECM does it for you (VE New). Let me guess... you fit the data to the cells and then do a weighted average. That's dumbing it down a lot, but that's pretty much all there is to it.

If there is no data we make no changes to those areas. Just going in and adding smoothing over the missed areas isn't going to make it a right VE selection, so we chose not to do that.

That might work if you're starting with a map that's pretty close to the configuration on your bike, but I highly doubt a huge difference in VEs between two adjacent cells would be considered ok. For those of us with builds, that's not unusual when you can't collect data in the outliers.

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[ToBeFrank]

If it wasn't made clear that V-Tune was not being used or if TTS has in any way been shown in a bad light then I must apologize.

No, he was saying my software couldn't possibly be as good as his V-Tune.

[FLTRI]

"I realize you're trying to sell your product, and yes, your software does a good job, but give me a break. What you're doing is simple statistics, it isn't anything new. Heck, the MegaSquirt community was doing this way before you released V-Tune. You don't even have to do the calculating of the new VEs or any smoothing on them because the ECM does it for you (VE New). Let me guess... you fit the data to the cells and then do a weighted average. That's dumbing it down a lot, but that's pretty much all there is to it."

Nothing like making Steve feel welcome. GEEZ!

Steve,
No matter anyone says, you are the man because you have singlehandedly made my job a pleasure to come to each day.

Welcome Steve!!!

[Steve Cole]

Well it seems some of you think that it an easy task and that's all well and good but why is it that no one else could do it prior to our product hitting the market? If it was really that simple everyone would have done it long ago. We've been doing this since 1988 so it's nothing new at all but it's not been in this market before. Now as far as exactly how we do it I'm not going there. If someone else wants to write there own software great go do it but do not come here and say ours doesn't work properly when it does. What I tried to point out is that the AE176-000 file was created by using the V-tune data only with proper data collection done on the street. Look at the shape of the VE tables to see how they come out. Some are saying that the V-tune program doesn't work properly and I beg to differ. If your graph of the VE table doesn't smoothed in then it points to not enough data was gathered to fill in the table completely. I do not care if the motor has been changed or not the program will bring a nicely shaped VE table for what your combination needs without the spikes that are being shown in some of your previous post. I've done 110 cu in motors with 258 cams, ported heads, 10.5 : 1 compression ratio and RB racing pipes in a 2008 FL and the graphs of the VE tables look the same as the AE176-000, nice and smooth. This was all done on the street without the dyno. I am currently working on a 131 cu in motor and it too is coming around just as all the other I've worked with have. I can use the dyno here and make it really easy on myself but in order to continue to test our products we still do some the same way you the customer has to do it. This allows us to see what we can improve and that our product works as advertised.

[Blackbaggr]

Thanks again Steve. I trust my 07 will run better than it ever has before. I believe in the product.

[ToBeFrank]

Well it seems some of you think that it an easy task and that's all well and good but why is it that no one else could do it prior to our product hitting the market? If it was really that simple everyone would have done it long ago.

As I said, the MegaSquirt people did it, and I did it, and yes, I think it is easy. Mine was a prototype for myself and I didn't put it out in the market. I wrote it months before you released V-Tune and did it in about 4 hours of programming one evening. The only difference between yours and mine is mine does it for open loop bikes with widebands. Yours does it for closed loop bikes with the narrowbands.

Now as far as exactly how we do it I'm not going there. If someone else wants to write there own software great go do it

I already did. If anyone wants to really understand how it works, I'll be happy to share the info. I was originally just going to add my code to my archive, but now that I'm motivated, I'm going to adapt my existing implementation to work with the SERT log and the narrowbands. The implementation will be made available for FREE. This way people with closed loop bikes who bought the SERT or SEST won't have to shell out their hard earned money again to get a great running bike.

but do not come here and say ours doesn't work properly when it does.

Not a single person on this thread has said that. Actually, I said "your (TTS) software does a good job". What I did say was the TS does not do a good job. Are you confusing TS with TTS? TS = Twin Scan, which is made by DTT.

Some are saying that the V-tune program doesn't work properly and I beg to differ.

Not a single person on this thread has said that.

If your graph of the VE table doesn't smoothed in then it points to not enough data was gathered to fill in the table completely. I do not care if the motor has been changed or not the program will bring a nicely shaped VE table for what your combination needs without the spikes that are being shown in some of your previous post.

That was exactly my point to Vic when showing him the difference between his graphs produced with the TS and my graphs produced with my software. If you are still saying my graphs are not smooth, I disagree, and that's where I disagreed with you in my first reply to you. One quick glance at them and you can see they are just as smooth as what your V-Tune produces.

I've done 110 cu in motors with 258 cams, ported heads, 10.5 : 1 compression ratio and RB racing pipes in a 2008 FL and the graphs of the VE tables look the same as the AE176-000, nice and smooth.

Exactly. My graphs are also nice and smooth.

[Steve Cole]

"Not a single person on this thread has said that. Actually, I said "your (TTS) software does a good job". What I did say was the TS does not do a good job. Are you confusing TS with TTS? TS = Twin Scan, which is made by DTT."

"That might work if you're starting with a map that's pretty close to the configuration on your bike, but I highly doubt a huge difference in VEs between two adjacent cells would be considered ok. For those of us with builds, that's not unusual when you can't collect data in the outliers."

Well I stand corrected, I took your posts with the TS just to be a typo for TTS, as did others who send me to this post to start with.

[FLTRI]

I think it's great you have the wherewithall to write your own tuning program to eliminate using what is available on the market.  Having worked with software developers/engineers for over 6 years (1990-96) developing D/A for racing vehicles, it is truly amazing that you were able to write a complete tuning program from scratch, that works without flaws. You have to be making millions with your ability.

Please post your program ASAP for us to use/test so we can start a new thread "TBFtuner" and offer some constructive criticism like we've done for Mr Cole.

Looking forward to working with you and your tuning software.

PS-Will it include 8hr/day 5day/wk tech support if/when have a question or problem?

[ToBeFrank]

Gee Bob, nothing like stirring the pot in a thread that had worked itself out already. But since you're an "expert", I'll indulge you...

I think it's great you have the wherewithall to write your own tuning program to eliminate using what is available on the market.

Please point me to all the products that are available that will generate VEs from logged data for the stock ECM on an open loop Harley. Steve and I both agree the Twin Scan doesn't cut it so no need to bring that one up.

Having worked with software developers/engineers for over 6 years (1990-96) developing D/A for racing vehicles, it is truly amazing that you were able to write a complete tuning program from scratch

Thanks!

that works without flaws

Don't recall saying that, but it does work pretty darn good. Most of the flaws are because the Twin Scan doesn't sample fast enough and doesn't log the right data. I have to "code around" those problems, so to speak.

You have to be making millions with your ability.

Nah, I didn't do it to make any money. I just wanted a good running bike without having to pay a dyno guy to get it there. And I enjoy learning new things. Might as well share it with others who want the same thing.

Please post your program ASAP for us to use/test so we can start a new thread "TBFtuner" and offer some constructive criticism like we've done for Mr Cole.

I think a more appropriate name would be "OpenTune" or "FreeTune".

PS-Will it include 8hr/day 5day/wk tech support if/when have a question or problem?

That's the beauty of free/open source software. You can choose to buy the commercial, non-free kind if you need the support, or you can use the free kind and depend on the community if you need support. It's like everything in life, you make the decision based on your expectations.

[POORBOY]

Nice job TBF, you handled this misunderstanding very well