KNOWLEDGABLE T-MAX TUNER, CLOSE TO RICHMOND, VA

[Quick_2s]

I am trying to find a tuner familiar with the T-max within a 1 day travel radius from RVA. My build is fairly different from any of the starting maps they have and with some fairly significant changes to the motor recently I am not seeing much of a change in my numbers. I.E. I went from 9.8-1 to 12.55-1 compression with new pistons and my TQ. numbers only went up 4 points. Everyone I have talked to seems to think it is a tune problem, but even with extensive mileage to let the auto tuner do its thing still no improvement. It runs smooth, the mileage is great but it almost seems to be de-tuned. I am adding a pro-pipe over the next week, and I'm going to groove my heads plus add a +4 degree key to my cams. Once that is done I'll be looking for someone to try and verify if this pig is tuned to where it should be or if I should be looking elsewhere for the reason. Its no slouch by any means at 125/120 but the build it was patterned after is 156/140 so something seems amiss. 

[FLTRI]

Nice story but no information to help you out.
1) What is your year, model, etc?
2) What is your exact build specs?
3) What is your CCP?
4) What is your mileage?
5) Do you have a dyno sheet w/AFR you can post?
NOTE: Going from 9.8 to 12.55 is huge and the timing mapping will need to be completely different.

With a little info we may be able to help shed some light on this for you.
Bob

[Quick_2s]

04 Duece
Stock Stroke, Balancers removed, Tiged, plugged, balanced.

4.25" Domed CP 12-1 coated pistons 21.51cc dome volume

Heads are 1.8 intake runner 2.1" intake, D-port exhaust 1.7"
Chamber is 96cc, .650 lift max.
.030 Cometic head gaskets
(I could give you the flow on the heads if I could get the image to post)

Cams 647 Gear Driven
INT          26/106/58     Duration 264   Lift .647   TDC Lift @ valve  .211
EX           58/106/26    Duration 264    Lift .647   TDC Lift @ valve  .211

Throttle Body
55mm body, 58mm manifold, 6.19gps injectors

CCP is 230ilbs. per hole

Mileage on bike is 22k, on motor is 3.5k

My 2 dyno sheets ( if I can find them on my desk somewhere) that I have don't show AFR because they were just baseline runs, I have the advanced software for the t-max I can send you the most current save from that if it would help. The other thing I noticed is that this thing runs cold, I mean on an 80 degree day this thing is pushing it to get to 200 on the dipstick.

[FLTRI]

Thanks for the info. Hopefully you will get some really good help here for this.
I guess my first observation is you must be experiencing terrible detonation with the new compression OR the timing map for the old compression was really retarded.
Second was the build you patterned after Delphi EFI with SERT tuned or Carb, or T-max?

[Quick_2s]

The build was a carb, I haven't had detonation issues unless I run a map larger that my compression like a 120 or 124 map. If I run a 113 down to a 107 it does fine just feels de-tuned between 3k and 4500 then surges like a rocket.

Actually that is the reason I'm going to the 2-1 and adding the 4 degree advance key to the cams. It wants to make all its power up top, I.E. its still climbing the horsepower curve @ 6250 when it hits the limiter. I had raised it to 7k for a bit and it was hard to keep a grip on plus every time I took it past 6700 it popped the headlight bulb.

[mayor]

am I reading this right: your ccp is currently 230#, and your going to increase it with a 4 degree gear to improve mid range performance?  have you thought about just looking at cams with less duration (bringing tq curve on earlier)? 

[Quick_2s]

I have thought about that and my ides was to go to .060 on my head gaskets which according to the comp calc should drop me down to around 11.6-1 plus grooving the heads should bring it down a slight bit more. I don't know what do you guys think? According to the calc the corrected compression with the cams closing @58 should be around 10.38-1 as it sets, its not a hard motor to turn over and it takes about 6-8 strokes to get it up to 230 on the gauge.

[Quick_2s]

I've got 2 different maps I've ran, 1 works fine but feels weak, the other feels stronger but has detonation. Comparing the 2 next to each other I'm wondering where the middle ground would be. If anyone cares to take a look at the 2 here they are. They were both saved with the advanced software.

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[Quick_2s]

Here is the other, it runs stronger but I get some detonation at steady cruise RPM.

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[Yo J]

John Meade of Pro Street Cycles Richmond VA.  www.prostreetcycles.net

The whole staff is very friendly and John does quality work...

www.prostreetcycles.net .

[Quick_2s]

Yeah I know John very well, but he sold his shop and moved back to AZ to instruct at MMI, and took his dyno trailer with him.

[FLTRI]

Here is the other, it runs stronger but I get some detonation at steady cruise RPM.

Based on your input you either have an ignition map that is so far advanced it doen't even need a load to detonate (which should make the bike unridable because of pinging) OR you are mistaking typical 2500-2800 rpm valvetrain noise for detonation.

[Yo J]

>>Yeah I know John very well, but he sold his shop and moved back to AZ to instruct at >>MMI, and took his dyno trailer with him.

Bummer - Best Tune I ever had.

[Quick_2s]

I'm hoping that with the change to 0.06 head gasket, grooving the heads and the pro-pipe I'm adding that maybe I'll get the tq. moved own into the range I want it in and I'll be able to just enjoy it for awhile. But I still feel like there is a tuning issue there because the canned starter maps arent really anywhere close to what I have. I should just throw a 4.25 stroke crank in it and be done with it.

[Quick_2s]

Now John did say he would tune my bike for me if I want to ride it out to AZ. to catch up with him.

[se]

JD's cycleworks in PA he tunes with the t-max. ask for Dave 1-610-297-0321
http://www.jdscycleworks.com/
not for nothing but there have been a few guys running the t-max with big builds and they removed the t-max and went with the TTS or SERT.
bikes run way better. you might be at the limits of the capabilities of the t-max .

[redmtrckl]

If I read this right you have a 114" build that is nearly the same as mine and running the zippers 647 cams same as me.
I can tell you the mine dows best with max timing at 26.5 deg on 11.1 compression. With you higher compression I would be looking at max advance closer to 25deg.
These big cam big inch motors don't need over about 27deg max depending on compression.
Mine is carbed, yours is ? injected?---shouldn't matter as that is just fuel flow/metering.
Try building a timing curve with the software that starts at about 15deg from 1000 rpm and increase in a linear line till it's all in at 2500rpm with a max of 25-26 deg.

[Quick_2s]

What kind of numbers are you pulling from yours and on what pipe, I was running Bassani pro streets but am currently switching to a pro-pipe with a modified baffle. Mine is currently getting 125/120.

[redmtrckl]

With clutch slipping---fixed with scorpion clutch but don't know numbers now.

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[Quick_2s]

What pipes?

[redmtrckl]

D&D Boarzilla with quiet baffle made the most power. Pipe is still on.

[Bigs]

I don't know if they do any programing at Zippers in Elkridge, MD or not. When we were at Delmarva Bike Week, Zippers were there and I told them that I didn't the Auto-tune was working right. The guy said bring it in and he would look at it. He had his computer hooked up to it for about 25 minutes and seemed to be punching the keys all the time. When he finished I left and haven't had any problems with it. It runs smooth from idle to wide open throttle. Evidently the map they told me to use was out of range for the Auto-Tune to work properly.
   Bigs

[Quick_2s]

They are close enough to work if they can do it, I'll give them a call.

[Quick_2s]

I talked to Randy with Zippers late yesterday he is going to check with the shop and see if they can bring it in to tune as an r&d bike since they have gotten a few calls about the 114's and have no base maps for them, he is telling me to use the 107 or 95 maps because the share the 4" stroke with the 114's and that stroke is more important to the correct base map than actual displacement. I would just have to figure what global fuel offset to apply after correcting for injector size. I installed the pro-pipe Wednesday and even without the baffle in every time I roll into the throttle hard in first gear the tire breaks loose. The baffle arrived late yesterday and I put it in so as soon as the roads dry out I'll be taking it for a scoop with the new map (#500) and pipes. I think I'm gonna lower my rear tire pressure to try and get a little better bite. 

[FLTRI]

"I think I'm gonna lower my rear tire pressure to try and get a little better bite."
The lower the pressure the better the launch grip and the worse the bike will handle.
Keep her going in a straight line with low pressures.

[Quick_2s]

Well I'm definitely going to have to remove the plug in the end of the baffle as V&H suggested I can definitely feel it choking the motor at 3k and above it feels like riding into mud at anything higher than that. Idle is smooth as silk and has a good lunge up to about 2700 though.

[FLTRI]

"choking the motor at 3k and above it feels like riding into mud at anything higher than that"

Are you exaggerating? The difference between the baffles will come into play above 5000rpm, and it should actually feel great till then and only feel like it is falling off a bit higher than that.

If you are really having issues above 3000rpms you may be sumping as you have described what an engine feels like when the flywheels are bathing in oil in the crankcase.

To prove the point simply remove the baffle and see how it accelerates above 3000rpms. If it just screams above 3000 without the baffle I will stand corrected.
Bob

[Quick_2s]

I ran it Wednesday ( look back about 4 posts) before the baffle I had ordered came in and It was spinning the tire at roll on in first repeatedly. The guy I talked to at V&H said that the pipe was designed around an 88 platform and with mine (114, heads, hi-lift cams, larger TB, velocity stack..... bla, bla, bla, I would need to open it up more by removing the cap in the front of the baffle. you guys are more exspierienced that me what do you think?

[Quick_2s]

Knocked out the end cap took it for a 10 mile little skip, the torque jump is phenomenal, I always hated the look of a 2-1 pipe but the increase is beyond me even arguing I'm sold. Now I just have to come up with a way to get the power to the ground without spinning the tire. Hopefully I can get it on a dyno for at least a baseline pull early next week and unless I miss my guess the tuning issues I was having may have just been a lack of back pressure and a good set of pipes. 

[FLTRI]

Knocked out the end cap took it for a 10 mile little skip, the torque jump is phenomenal, (So no more "feels like riding into mud" above 3000rpm?) I always hated the look of a 2-1 pipe but the increase is beyond me even arguing I'm sold. Now I just have to come up with a way to get the power to the ground without spinning the tire (upshift?). Hopefully I can get it on a dyno for at least a baseline pull early next week and unless I miss my guess the tuning issues I was having may have just been a lack of back pressure (the stock V&H baffle definitely provides backpressure and should work faily well to at least 5000rpm)and a good set of pipes.  

[Quick_2s]

There is definitely no more "mud" feel, and on the upshift thing I get what your saying its just odd that from a normal rolling start out of a red light and I get up to about 15 then "ROLL" into it about quickly it breaks traction. Now it has been cold (30's-40) when I have been doing these test runs could the cold temp of the tire compound be part of whats causing this? Its supposed to be in the upper 60's on Monday so I'll be able to somewhat answer that myself I guess.

On a side note is it normal to have some fuel vapor coming through your crankcase breather directly after a prolonged idle warm-up in say low 30's temp. It concerned me a bit so I googled it and I saw a few comments on some other chats that an injected bike can do this under these condition. And if so how is it getting there? Cold piston to cylinder wall tolerance greater when that cold maybe?

[FLTRI]

"fuel vapor coming through your crankcase breather"
If you have an open beather (to the atmosphere) certainly the overly rich cold-running condition can and will pas by the rings and cause some vapors to expell. This would not be an issue,nor noticed if the breathers were vented to the intake. If you had a tuning device (SERT,SEST,TTS,D/L) that you could change the warm-up enrichment with, you could reduce a bit of it @ real low temps and that will prolly eliminate the vapors.
It is not anything to worry about since is it just vapors that will burn off, unless it persists once the engine in warm.
JMHO, Bob

[Quick_2s]

The t-max has a AFR correction vs. Engine temp graph would that do the same thing?

[FLTRI]

The t-max has a AFR correction vs. Engine temp graph would that do the same thing?

It should.